Harry Potter Confusion

[VociMike]

I had a thought while reading this thread. Yes, kids will want to do magic just like the Potter characters do. What kid hasn’t wanted magical powers? However, when a kid does try something that they’ve seen or read in the Potter stories, it won’t work. They’ll find out quick enough that they can’t do at all what the Potter characters can do with ease, and they’ll be disappointed for a bit and then move on. Total failure in the face of expected success is not likely to lead the average kid into a long quest to be a real witch or wizard.

 

[everlastingthur]

agname:

Knowing one’s intentions and/or true interpretation behind a piece of art…is impossible without the commentary of the artist…most refrain…because they want the art to be open to interpretation…others will comment…

Rowling says…

“I wanted Harry Potter to be the classic struggle of good vs.evil.”

“If you’re writing about evil, you genuinely have a responsibility to show what that means and that’s why I’m writing them the way I’m writing them.” Her latest book is considered darker than the previous two, with characters called dementors, who suck up souls, and an evil wizard, Sirus Black, who tries to kill Potter. Yet she has already explained that in her next book a popular central character will die. “I am writing about someone who is evil. And rather than make him a pantomime villain, the only way to show how evil it is to take a life is to kill someone the reader cares about.”

Q: How do you come up with all the unique names, places and things that help make Harry Potter so intriguing?

A: Many of the names are invented, for example ‘Quidditch’ and ‘Muggle’. I also collect unusual names, and I take them from all sorts of different places. ‘Hedwig’ was a saint, ‘Dumbledore’ is an old English word for ‘bumble bee’ and ‘Snape’ is the name of a place in England.

Q: What books and authors did you read as a kid? Which are your biggest influences? I most admire E. Nesbit, Paul Gallico and C.S.Lewis. My favourite book as a child was ‘The Little White Horse’ by Elizabeth Goudge.

Fact: Rowling first received her idea for Harry Potter in 1990 while stuck on a train between London and Manchester. She worked for two years with Amnesty International before completing a course in teaching English as a foreign language in Manchester.

I’ve read all her interviews…her intentions seem noble…her art is decent.

Also…FYI, just because an author and/or artist professes to be Catholic and/or Christian…doesn’t mean their intentions are noble. Just because a politician says he/she is Catholic…doesn’t make them religious…ie John Kerry.

Plus…personally…I think an artist’s work should be judged on its own merit…you would be shocked as to the motivations and the private conduct of many of the artists from the Renaissance, etc.

The fact remains, though, that Rowlings studied witchcraft to give her books realism. This isn’t “fairy tale magic” It is actual occult practices disguised as children’s literature. Lewis and Tolkien used fairy tale magic not actual occultism. Given the realism in Potter, it can be nothing but evil. Neither Lewis nor Tolkien promote casting spells. There are Potter related books that are nothing but spells. How to books on the spells and magic in Potter. How is this not encouraging kids into witchcraft? Wiccan organizations site a rise in interest from young people. They thank Potter for the renewed interest. Once again and I’ve written this several times. Good cannot be accomplished by evil means. So what if the “good guys” win out in the end. If the good guys are spell casting, occult practicing, humans then they aren’t going about good the right way. In THE END occult followers aren’t going to win in the end? Why is it good they win in the story. The magic in Potter is too close to actual occultism. Rowlings intended that. She studied the occult in preparation for her books. Once again, it’s not the dabbles in evil who win in the end.

The so called good Potter characters have other flaws as well. They repeatedly lie, and cheat. How is this being a good role model for children? In a decent book lying, and cheating brings consequences. Potter portrays no ill effects of such bad behavior. So, not only does it encourage children to dabble in the occult. It says it’s okay to lie and cheat as long as you don’t get caught, and you get what you want. NOT good children’s literature.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

everlastingthur:

The fact remains, though, that Rowlings studied witchcraft to give her books realism. This isn’t “fairy tale magic” It is actual occult practices disguised as children’s literature.

As someone who once considered himself a wicca, there is nothing in the works of Rowlings that resembles the practice of “witchcraft” in the “religion” of wicca.

The Harry Potter books are fantasy. As has been said else where in this thread, if a child has trouble separating fact from fantasy then these books, and no fantasy books, are for them.

As an avid reader, anything that can get kids into reading is a good thing, as long as they know what reality is and how these books are fantasy.

 

[SarahSmile]

Kids didn’t study witchcraft and therefore seeing the movies adn reading the books may arouse an interest in such works. As a Catholic, this is wrong… one cannot practice witchcraft and be a Catholic. Witchcraft and wicca are the devil’s work and worship.

 

[fogie]

Are we to prevent our children from reading the Hobbit. That contains “magic”

The protestants might not be as unified as it seems at first glance. Chuck Colson says Potter is OK because the magic is not occult.

Having said that, my children have had little interest in the Rowling books because they aren’t writte nearly as well as other books available, the Hobbit as an example.

Pax Christi

 

[Monarchy]

Kath:

One thing (TRUE) that you might be interested to know about Harry Potter is2 things, the names that they use in the movies and the books, are real names of Demons, and as these name are said, these deamons are released from hell (Not to do good thingd either)> Another thing is that a women who found out that Harry Potter was pure evil burned the books and other Harry Potter stuff and stated that she (1) has never seen a fire like that before and (2) that while the stuff was burning, she heard hiddious howling. This is true.

Umm, speaking as an adult fan of the books, I can tell you that no demon names are used. If you beleive so I ask that you please site which ones they are.

Just a few

Remus Lupin = Remus is one of the twins rasised by wolves in Roman (?) mythology and Lupin is latin for wolf. The character (unsurprisingly) is a werwolf.

Sirius Black Sirius is the ‘dog star’.,Black is a color. The character has the ability to became a big black dog.

Many of the names in HP are clues about the character.

 

[Audrey]

tee_eff_em:

Now: Does anything about the Harry Potter series bother me? Yes, and it has nothing to do with witchcraft.

I am bothered by the morality in the books. And I almost gave up on the series out of boredom, since the first 3 books were almost the same story told three times. I was just about ready to throttle little Harry Potter by the end of that 3rd book.

What do I mean about the morality? Let’s look at some made-up, but representative dialog:

Harry Potter, you stoopid little twerp! STOP LYING TO THE ADULTS YOU TRUST! DON’T YOU GET IT? THEY’VE BEEN LOOKING OUT FOR YOU AT EVERY STEP, AND YOU’VE DONE NOTHING BUT MAKE THINGS DIFFICULT ON YOURSELF AND EVERYONE ELSE BY LYING TO THEIR FACES! STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP IT!

Whew! That felt good.

Even though Harry blatantly lied, I think there is a message here that ultimately comes out in the book - Harry shouldn’t have lied. While the good guys do win in the end, the books show the repercussions of not doing the right thing. Children don’t use their imaginations enough today; I think the books are great. As always, parents need to be aware of the contents so that they can discuss them with their children. I personally love the books!

 

[SarahSmile]

fogie:

Are we to prevent our children from reading the Hobbit. That contains “magic”

Pax Christi

The Hobbit and the Lord of the Ring series has many relations with the Catholic faith… The “magic” in HP is portrayed as good, where as the LOR series portrayed magic as evil. The ring was evil, Saron was evil.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

SarahSmile:

The Hobbit and the Lord of the Ring series has many relations with the Catholic faith… The “magic” in HP is portrayed as good, where as the LOR series portrayed magic as evil. The ring was evil, Saron was evil.

This is a bit one sided…

So the magic of the elves, Gandalf’s magic, were those portrayed as evil? I don’t think so.

 

[Monarchy]

everlastingthur:

The fact remains, though, that Rowlings studied witchcraft to give her books realism.

Acording to JKR herself she did not. Please state your source for this information.

 

[Monarchy]

SarahSmile:

The Hobbit and the Lord of the Ring series has many relations with the Catholic faith… The “magic” in HP is portrayed as good, where as the LOR series portrayed magic as evil. The ring was evil, Saron was evil.

Gandalf is a wizard, and good. The ring and Sauron represent the desire for power and its corrupting influence. So Does Lord Voldemort in HP.

 

[Proud2bRC]

ThyKingdomCome:

I’ve heard plenty of discussion on this topic, and was recommended a book by Michael O’Brien called “A Landscape with Dragons.”

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Harry Potter and the Paganization of Children’s Literature
An invaluable article by Michael O’Brien from the April 2001 Catholic World Report.
petersnet.net/browse/3816.htm

http://www.familylifecenter.net/gifs/bullet.gif**Harry Potter: An Entry Point into the World of the Occult / New Age Movement**
By Steve Wood

http://www.familylifecenter.net/gifs/bullet.gifSome Thoughts on the Harry Potter Series** by Michael O’Brien**http://www.familylifecenter.net/gifs/bullet.gif**The Trouble with Harry**
by John Murray
Are the Harry Potter books the same as C.S. Lewis’ Narnia series?
family.org/cforum/citizenmag/coverstory/a0019032.html http://www.familylifecenter.net/gifs/bullet.gif**Harry Potter vs. The Lord of the Rings**
interview with Michael O’Brien who contrasts Harry Potter with Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings.

http://www.familylifecenter.net/gifs/bullet.gif**%between%**A Landscape with Dragons by Michael O’Brien, also author of Father Elijah, is must reading for every Catholic parent. A Landscape with Dragons will teach you how to raise discerning children. Although A Landscape with Dragons never mentions the Harry Potter series, the principles found in Michael O’Brien’s book will enable you to definitively answer any questions you have about Harry Potter.

 

[King_s_X_Fan]

I’d like to respond to some of these thoughts:

everlastingthur:

Had I read Harry Potter before studying up on it I probably would have enjoyed it, and found it decent. Simply reading the series cannot enlighten someone to Rowlins’ motives, and her research in occult practices for the novels.

Please cite your source indicating her “research in occult practices for the novels.” This is news to me.

Rowlings is not a Christian and her intentions were not to promote Christian morality like Tolkien did.

Rowlings is indeed a Christian - see the vatican quote above for substantiation. CS Lewis was not overt about his intention to promote Christian morality in his fictional Space Trilogy, in fact many took it to be un-Christian as well. But he considered it to be an example of “smuggled theology”, just as Lord of the Rings is considered the same. Just as some might consider Harry Potter to be. Did you know that Rowling is also a huge CS Lewis fan? She has said that if she is in the same room with a Narnia book she can’t help but to sit down and read it.

In LOR Tolkien shows dangers of messing with dark powers. Rowlings encourages it.

Please cite an example, as I disagree that anything in the HP books encourages “messing with dark powers.”

Rowling’s magic isn’t fairy magic like Tolkien’s.

Your point is moot.

The magic in her books is actual occult magic. She studied witchcraft, and occultism. She wanted her magic to be realistic.

Again, please cite passages. I defy you to cite a single spell used in an HP book which represents anything remotely resembling true witchcraft.

Once again, simply reading a book can’t inform someone about the author’s intentions.

While I do believe Rowling’s intentions to be honorable and Christian, the truth is the author’s intentions are not nearly as important as the reader’s reaction. Reading a book can absolutely inform someone about the effect the book may have on their own children. I believe Tolkien cared far more about a book’s “adaptability” than it’s “intended meaning”.

The characters in Harry Potter use actual spells, and are comparable to actual occult practitioners.

Not true.

Tolkien’s characters are fable. Unless you actually believe in elves and hobbits.

If the elves represent angels, then they are not fable. But that’s not important. What’s important is whether the reader can discern truth from fiction, fantasy from reality. As the US Council of Catholic Bishops pointed out in their review of the first HP movie, it’s akin to the Arthur story of Merlin. It poses no moral or spiritual danger to the reader as long as the reader is able to distinguish it from reality. I might add the same criteria applies to veggie tales or any other children’s entertainment.

 

[King_s_X_Fan]

everlastingthur:

The so called good Potter characters have other flaws as well. They repeatedly lie, and cheat. How is this being a good role model for children? In a decent book lying, and cheating brings consequences. Potter portrays no ill effects of such bad behavior. So, not only does it encourage children to dabble in the occult. It says it’s okay to lie and cheat as long as you don’t get caught, and you get what you want. NOT good children’s literature.

This is incorrect.

 

[SarahSmile]

**the One Ring is a symbol of material possessions, but more importantly, the power such possessions give one over others. The Dark Lord Sauron created many rings of power of which he gave to the many rulers of each race–elves, dwarves, and mortal men. They all were intrigued by the power of the rings. They were betrayed, though, for Sauron created a greater ring that would control all those who possessed the others. When the One Ring is close, it begins to corrupt those around it. Even those who intend to use it for good would ultimately bring on greater evils by its use, as Gandalf feared even in himself. Similarly, those who begin to find power in our world, slowly discover the temptation to abuse and control others for their own good. This understanding of the One Ring plays a significant role in understanding the character Boromir.
**

Frodo’s struggle emulates the Way of the CrossHe chooses to sacrifice himself for the good of all.

Mordor, hell itself

**Aragorn is the rightful heir to the throne of Gondor, Christ is the rightful heir to the Kingdom of Israel. He begins his ministry to lead Frodo and his companions from the slavery the One Ring intends to bring upon Middle Earth. As the movie portrays, Aragorn begins to learn that his people are in need of their king and begins to take on his duty. This role parallels the ministry of John the Baptist and kingship of Christ.
Aragorn discovers Boromir dying from the arrows impaled into his body. He embraces the dying man with his arms. As Boromir takes his last breath, Aragorn lays the man down and places a fatherly kiss upon his forehead. The scene calls to mind Christ’s endearing love of the sick and dying and His promise to be with those He loves in that last hour. When Boromir begins to die in the arms of Aragorn (Strider), he confesses his sin against Frodo. Aragorn reassures Boromir that he has in truth triumphed and redeemed himself. In the gospels, Christ tells us that there is no greater love than to give one’s life for a friend. Truly, Boromir gave his life for his friends and manifested the purifying love of God within his heart through his sacrifice. Boromir is truly a model to us Christians of God’s forgiveness when we give our lives to His will.
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**When Gandalf has his face-off with the Balrog, he says “I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass.” (Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring, Book 2, Chapter V, p. 322). Under the definition of “The Secret Fire,” Foster’s book blatantly states “The Holy Spirit, the power giving substance and life to the Creation of Iluvatar…also called the flame of Anor.” It is quite fitting that Tolkien would refer to the Holy Spirit as the Secret Fire since if was in tongues of fire that the Holy Spirit descended upon the Apostles at Pentecost (Acts 2). Such an underlying theology can be found elsewhere within Tolkien’s tales.
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[SarahSmile]

**At the very beginning of the movie, we see Gandalf and the Baelrog descend into the depths of the shadows. If you’ve read some of the linked articles on this page, their authors speak of how Gandalf’s fall and death represents Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. In dying on the cross, Christ defeated the power of sin and death–Satan himself. After he died, he descended into hell and rose from the dead. Similarly, Gandalf falls into Morgoth (Tolkien’s rendition of Hell), defeats the Baelrog (a major “demon of the ancient world”), dies and is resurrected to lead the people of middle earth to victory. the figure of Gandalf we see the archetype of an Old Testament patriarch, his staff apparently having the same power as that possessed by Moses.

**Another parallel to Christ is the scene when Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas meet with Gandalf for the first time after his resurrection. The three of them witness Gandalf glowing in a brilliant, glory of light. Similarly, at the Transfiguration of Christ (Luke 9:28-36), Peter, James and John witnessed Christ’s divine glory as light shined forth from His face and clothes with a brilliant radiance. ****

The other striking scene with Gandalf was the exorcism of King Theodin of Rohan. Christ performed many exorcisms in the gospels where the demons trembled at His very presence. Gandalf’s character gives us another glimpse into the awesome power Christ held over the greatest of evil beings.

**If you read Harry Potter, you’ll find that magic is a power one gains by learning to “tame” the natural world. In Lord of the Rings, those who hold to that view of magic are corrupted by evil. That understanding of magic is New Age. Righteous characters like Gandalf understand their “magic” as a participation in the power of God. The scene when Gandalf opposes the Baelrog at the Bridge of Kazad’Dum is an excellent example. To demonstrate the source of his magic, Gandalf tells the Baelrog that he is “a servant of the Secret Fire; bearer of the Flame of Anor.” In previous posts I demonstrated how “the Secret Fire” and “the Flame of Arnor” are names for the Holy Spirit. Gandalf clearly testifies that the source of his power is not himself, but the Holy Spirit.
**The Apostles held to this same understanding of their “magic.” In Acts 8, Simon Magus sees Peter and John confer the Holy Spirit upon the Samaritans by the Laying on of Hands (Confirmation). Simon Magus foolishly believes that the Apostles are using magic as he did in his previous profession as a magician. When he asks to buy this power, Peter strongly rebukes him saying “may your money perish with you, because you thought that you could buy the gift of God with money” (v. 20). Peter’s rebuke is justified because he says that this power is a “gift of God,” having its source in God, not in man. This “magic” done in accord with God’s power is not evil because God is its source. Though “magic” is not the term we would use for these gifts of the Holy Spirit, it is not inappropriate to use that term in a book such as the Lord of the Rings if the necessary distinction is made in the story’s context. The Lord of the Rings actually works against the New Age movement in this manner. In fact, this movie presents a great opportunity to show this distinction to those who dabble with the New Age Movement. I hope you take advantage of that opportunity. ****

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[SarahSmile]

**Catholics are also called to pray for the dead. Two scenes from the Two Towers demonstrate this devotion in Legolas and Gandalf. When Legolas finds clothing from Merry and Pippen amidst a pile of burning orc bodies, he pauses to say a prayer for his lost friends. Also, at the end of that stirring scene when King Theoden falls to his knees in heartbreaking anguish before the tomb of his son, Theodrid, Gandalf says a final prayer for Theodrid. **
**As a token of her love, Arwen vows to give up her immortality so that she may marry Aragorn. In doing this, she takes on the terrible burden of an eventual death–a great sacrifice. The weight of this sacrifice is made very clear in a scene between her and her father Elrond in the Two Towers. In both movies, Aragorn takes the opportunity to convince Arwen not to make this sacrifice. He is willing to sacrifice their happiness together so that she may not suffer death. In the end he is obedient to her wishes as she insists that he accept her offering of love.
Minas Tirith and the Church Militant (the believers who continue to struggle against sin on Earth). **

**Ever since Christ ascended into heaven, the Church has battled against demonic forces. With grace we find the courage and strength to stand against evil. The forces of evil have not yet revealed their full force against us, though. When the Final End is near, the anti-Christ will draw all evil to himself and persecute the Church with unrelenting ferocity. Evil will be unleashed and the saints will be driven to the brink of despair. It is then that the Church’s King–Christ–will make His Second Coming. He will return in His glory with tremendous power and authority, His heavenly saints and angels at His side. He will raise the dead from the earth and call upon those who were just to join His heavenly army. With ease, He and the heavenly hosts will conquer the anti-Christ and all presence of Evil, casting them into the eternal pool of fire. In this Final End, though, the world will be consumed with fire, all mankind will be subject to the Final Judgement of Christ, and everyone each will be eternally assigned to heaven or hell.
**
**The Lord of the Rings ends with the peaceful and joyous marriage between Aragorn and Arwen, the King and Queen. The Book of Revelation also ends with the Marriage Feast of the Lamb, when Christ and His bride, the Church, will be joined in perfect, joyous unity for all eternity in heaven. **
catholicqanda.com/LOTR3.html
**catholicqanda.com/LOTR2.html

**

 

[SarahSmile]

the Harry Potter series presents the world of witchcraft and sorcery in a positive light,
The Catechism of the Catholic Church calls divination and magic a form of idolatry.the first book of Samuel (15:23) divination is equated with the spirit of rebellion.
The spread of occult activity, and the resulting increase in the number of exorcisms performed by Catholic priests, has been noted by secular commentators as well. Articles on the subject have recently appeared in the New York Times and the Los Angeles Times. An article in the November 28, 2000, edition of the New York Times reported a ten-fold increase in the number of official exorcists in the United States during the past decade.

Both Tolkien and Lewis use magic in a way fundamentally different from Rowling.

The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien also portrays magic as deception. While it is true that Gandalf, one of the central characters, is called a “wizard” throughout, he is not in fact a classical sorcerer. Tolkien maintains that Gandalf is rather a kind of moral guardian, similar to guardian angels but more incarnate.
Harry Potter and the Paganization of Children’s Culture MICHAEL O’BRIEN
catholiceducation.org/articles/arts/al0088.html

 

[BryanW]

fogie:

Are we to prevent our children from reading the Hobbit. That contains “magic”
Pax Christi

The difference is that only other worldly creatures like Gandalf used magic. Gandalf is a Maia sent to Middle Earth. This is akin to being an incarnate Angel. He uses magic sparingly and in a very different way than Harry.

I have a much easier time using Gandalf as an example of a servant of God than Harry, when I talk to my children.

Harry served himself, Gandalf served others in the name of the one God of his world.

 

[everlastingthur]

ByzCath:

As someone who once considered himself a wicca, there is nothing in the works of Rowlings that resembles the practice of “witchcraft” in the “religion” of wicca.

The Harry Potter books are fantasy. As has been said else where in this thread, if a child has trouble separating fact from fantasy then these books, and no fantasy books, are for them.

As an avid reader, anything that can get kids into reading is a good thing, as long as they know what reality is and how these books are fantasy.

I didn’t say Harry Potter resembles Wicca. I said Wiccan Organizations have reported a rise in interest of young people and contribute that to Harry Potter. What Harry Potter does portray realistically are different occult practices. Rowlings did much research on the subject. As for your statement that whatever gets kids interested in reading as long as they know the difference between what’s real and what isn’t real…that’s not necessarily true. Maybe Larry Flint will publish some children’s books. Anything as long as it gets them to read. As adults, and parents it’s our job to protect children. Some children often find it difficult to tell the difference. Most know it’s fiction, but it increases their curiosity. The problem with Potter is its realism. Noone in their right mind believes witches (Wiccan or otherwise) fly around on broomsticks. Potter does, however, promote an interest in the occult. Manipulating objects, casting spells… Rowling even placed a veiled reference to well-known occultitist Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, the founder of Theosophy in The Prisoner of Azkaban (pg 53). In today’s society there are too many opportunities for young people to become involved in occultism. Sometimes despite the parents’ best efforts to raise children in a Godly manny children go astray. Why expose them to something that desensitizes them to evil? If one must teach them about evil, but don’t give it to them for entertainment. That only softens their sensitivities when they actually come in contact with it. Spell casting should not be considered “cool”. Manipulating objects with the mind should not be something a child aspires to. When I was a kid Spider Man was the hero. We tried to scale building (and garbage dumpsters) but we didn’t have the spidey sticky hands. I had no chance to climb walls like Spider Man. There are no real world Spider Men. There are however, real world occultists.