Harry Potter Confusion

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everlastingthur:
I didn’t say Harry Potter resembles Wicca. I said Wiccan Organizations have reported a rise in interest of young people and contribute that to Harry Potter.
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Not quite, what you said was (as I quoted you in my first reply and will do so where)
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everlastingthur:
The fact remains, though, that Rowlings studied witchcraft to give her books realism. This isn’t “fairy tale magic” It is actual occult practices disguised as children’s literature.
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I replied that this is incorrect, that none of what is done in the books or movies resembles any “occult practices” practiced by “witches”.
What Harry Potter does portray realistically are different occult practices. Rowlings did much research on the subject.
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You claim that JKR stuided this stuff, when she has come right out and refuted this claim.

And again, the “occult practices” are not realistic. As one who has practiced them in the past, regrettably, I can attest to this.
As for your statement that whatever gets kids interested in reading as long as they know the difference between what’s real and what isn’t real…that’s not necessarily true. Maybe Larry Flint will publish some children’s books. Anything as long as it gets them to read.
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This is just a total misrepresentation of what I was saying and is very uncharitable of you… If this is what happens when one does not read books like Harry Potter then you sir are an argument for more people to read them.
As adults, and parents it’s our job to protect children. Some children often find it difficult to tell the difference. Most know it’s fiction, but it increases their curiosity.
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And this is why parents need to be parents… It is just as wrong to use books as babysitters as it is to use the television for this…

I would suggest before letting any children read any books that the parents read them first…

I am not even going to go into the rest of your comments as they do not matter…

Everyone here is singing the praises of The Lord of the Rings but it was that book that set me off on the path of Wicca.

Without parental involvement there is always a chance of this sort of thing.
 
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everlastingthur:
As for your statement that whatever gets kids interested in reading as long as they know the difference between what’s real and what isn’t real…that’s not necessarily true. Maybe Larry Flint will publish some children’s books. Anything as long as it gets them to read.
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ByzCath:
This is just a total misrepresentation of what I was saying and is very uncharitable of you… If this is what happens when one does not read books like Harry Potter then you sir are an argument for more people to read them.
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I’m with everlastingthur on this one ByzCath.

Too many people use the arguements that if it gets kids reading its ok, or it’s only a book or it’s just entertainment. This all of course beside the point.

I think everlastingthur was trying to make a point not to be uncharitable.
 
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BryanW:
I’m with everlastingthur on this one ByzCath.

Too many people use the arguements that if it gets kids reading its ok, or it’s only a book or it’s just entertainment. This all of course beside the point.

I think everlastingthur was trying to make a point not to be uncharitable.
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Well then I think your wrong too…

To some how say what I am saying is that kids should read pornography is just plain stupid and a gross misrepresentation of what I was saying.

This sort of argument is nothing more than a Straw Man…

You can find the following definition as well as others at the this web site…

nizkor.org/features/fallacies/index.html#index
Description of Straw Man

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person’s actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of “reasoning” has the following pattern:

  1. *]Person A has position X.
    *]Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
    *]Person B attacks position Y.
    *]Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

    This sort of “reasoning” is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.
 
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ByzCath:
This is a bit one sided…

So the magic of the elves, Gandalf’s magic, were those portrayed as evil? I don’t think so.
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The “magic” in Lord of the Rings of the elves and Gandalf wasn’t actually magic. Elves had abilities inherent in their nature. It wasn’t magic. Their abilities were given them by their creator. Gandalf didn’t use magic per se either. Gandalf was an angelic being. He only appeared in human form. Angels have abilities humans don’t. Magical power was portrayed in LOR as evil, though. When people try to obtain power they have no business possessing, that power corrupts. Gollum, for example, was a hobbit. Having the ring transformed him into the mishapen disgusting character he was. Magic is portrayed as evil in LOR. The examples you mention aren’t even magic. Saying elves used magic is like saying there’s an animal that swims in the ocean and can see with sound that comes out of it’s head as if noone has ever heard of a dolphin. Dolphins have that ability. Humans don’t. Tolkien’s elves had specific abilities. The characters in Harry Potter are human. They go to school to learn how manipulate and use their powers. It isn’t a part of their human nature.

A good book about Tolkien and LOR is J.R.R. Tolkien Myth Morality and Religion by Richard Purtill. He also discusses C.S. Lewis quite a bit. I read it this week, and I couldn’t put it down.
 
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everlastingthur:
The “magic” in Lord of the Rings of the elves and Gandalf wasn’t actually magic. Elves had abilities inherent in their nature. It wasn’t magic. Their abilities were given them by their creator. Gandalf didn’t use magic per se either. Gandalf was an angelic being. He only appeared in human form.
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This is alluded to in the LOTR but it is not explicitly spelt out.

It is not that clear, all this talk you are doing about LOTR…

As I stated and you can not refute… The Hobbit and the LOTR lead me to the practice of wicca.

With out parental involvement they led to me Dungeons and Dragons and that lead me right into the occult and the new age…

As I said, parents need to be involved no matter what the children are reading and doing.

To try and say something is bad is not the correct arguement. You are trying to ascribe some evil to a work of fantasy and fiction, an evil that is not present.

The main point, once again, is parental involvement…
 
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ByzCath:
Not quite, what you said was (as I quoted you in my first reply and will do so where)

I replied that this is incorrect, that none of what is done in the books or movies resembles any “occult practices” practiced by “witches”.

You claim that JKR stuided this stuff, when she has come right out and refuted this claim.

And again, the “occult practices” are not realistic. As one who has practiced them in the past, regrettably, I can attest to this.

This is just a total misrepresentation of what I was saying and is very uncharitable of you… If this is what happens when one does not read books like Harry Potter then you sir are an argument for more people to read them.

And this is why parents need to be parents… It is just as wrong to use books as babysitters as it is to use the television for this…

I would suggest before letting any children read any books that the parents read them first…

I am not even going to go into the rest of your comments as they do not matter…

Everyone here is singing the praises of The Lord of the Rings but it was that book that set me off on the path of Wicca.

Without parental involvement there is always a chance of this sort of thing.
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I’ve read that she refuted it. I’ve also read quotations from interviews and such that say she did. I’ll take anyone at their to a point. If she refutes studying occultism it’s PR on her part. Tim LaHey says his books are Catholic friendly. Sometimes people say things to protect themselves. Rowlings has a multi billion dollar business to protect. She did study and the similarities of the magic in her books to actual books supports that. Fantasy and Your Family by Richard Abanes is a good book. Abanes makes a good argument with well documented evidence. He’s no torch weilding fire in his eye Fundamentalist looking for a protest. He backs his claims with hundreds of citings and endnotes.
 
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ByzCath:
This is alluded to in the LOTR but it is not explicitly spelt out.

It is not that clear, all this talk you are doing about LOTR…

As I stated and you can not refute… The Hobbit and the LOTR lead me to the practice of wicca.

With out parental involvement they led to me Dungeons and Dragons and that lead me right into the occult and the new age…

As I said, parents need to be involved no matter what the children are reading and doing.

To try and say something is bad is not the correct arguement. You are trying to ascribe some evil to a work of fantasy and fiction, an evil that is not present.

The main point, once again, is parental involvement…
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Nothing I say is meant to be uncharitable. I have no ill will toward you or any Harry Potter fans. I do object to those who classify it with Tolkien and C.S. Lewis, though. I know nothing about you personally so I can’t be too uncharitable. Nothing I’ve written has been off the subject. I am sure you mean well. If I knew you personally, and knew you liked Potter I would have no problem with you over that. This forum is for people to discuss issues. That’s what is being done.
 
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ByzCath:
This is alluded to in the LOTR but it is not explicitly spelt out.

It is not that clear, all this talk you are doing about LOTR…

As I stated and you can not refute… The Hobbit and the LOTR lead me to the practice of wicca.

With out parental involvement they led to me Dungeons and Dragons and that lead me right into the occult and the new age…

As I said, parents need to be involved no matter what the children are reading and doing.

To try and say something is bad is not the correct arguement. You are trying to ascribe some evil to a work of fantasy and fiction, an evil that is not present.

The main point, once again, is parental involvement…
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I agree with you that parents should read things before their children do. As for the magic issue in LOTR it has been discussed openly by Tolkien himself. In his letters, and other works he discussed it.
 
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everlastingthur:
I’ve read that she refuted it. I’ve also read quotations from interviews and such that say she did. I’ll take anyone at their to a point. If she refutes studying occultism it’s PR on her part.
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I think the point here is that you and others on the anti- side of this discussion admit that Rowling has refuted studying occultism. You say that she has also said that she studied occultism. Those of us on the pro- side are having trouble believing you.

Instead of pointing us to a third-party source, why not go out there and find us a link or two to support your claim? There’s enough misinformation out there to merit being careful about passing around third party claims, I’d say. So get us some documentation, or we really have nothing to say to that. Your argument is akin to saying “look, I found someone who agrees with me - therefore she must have said it.” Find the quote, please.

It’s the same with the people who claim that HP includes “spells”. I’ve read all the books. I can tell you that they don’t. I can’t point to a passage that supports my side - if I could then I couldn’t say there weren’t any spells! But if you are saying that there are real spells in there, then please…quote them for me. Otherwise, you’re just putting unsubstantiated opinion out there.

FYI, there are also entire witch spell books devoted to LOTR. I have seen a “spell a day” calendar on sale at Target which had an LOTR theme. FWIW, the devil uses good things and twists them. It’s what he does. It doesn’t make me think any less of LOTR.
 
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Monarchy:
Acording to JKR herself she did not. Please state your source for this information.
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Fantasy and Your Family by Richard Abanes page 139 quotation from an interview.

Where I’m mentioning a creature, or a spell that people used to believe genuinely worked-of course, it didn’t…then, I will find out exactly what the words were, and I will find out exactly what the characteristics of that creature or ghost was supposed to be.

This link is an audio version of the show the quotation came from.
wamu.org/dr/shows/drarc_991018.html#wednesday

She has done research. During this interview she also says that "one-third of the occult-related ideas in her books ‘are things that people genuinely used to believe in Britain’ ". Later, after objections concerning the amount of real oocultism in her books began creating serious controversy, Rowling started contradicting her ‘one-third’ staements, claiming instead that she made up ‘at least 95 percent of it…just out of nowhere’ " (Fantasy and Your Family page 138-139.

This is just a small bit of what Abanes covers in his book. His claims are well cited with notes.
 
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Ham1:
The books are geared for kids 12 and up. If your 12 year old doesn’t understand fantasy vs. reality and basic morality, then you have MUCH bigger problems than Harry Potter.
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Why do you think that these books are so good for children 12 and up? Also I wonder why bother reading these books when there are so many far better books out there that lift a child up to God and correct morality as well as written better ,with better vocabulary, and grammer. For my children I have them read other things like Treasure Island and other great clasics as well as saint books. These type of books will up lift them they are not dark and gloomy. My 2 cents.
 
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Poisson:
Personally I don’t have a problem with Potter. But then I feel my children are well grounded in the faith, we discuss movies we see and they know fantasy from reality. What they don’t know are the subtle Chrisological themes that are prevalent in Lord of the Rings and to them they would not see the differnce between the two. If I told them they could see LOTR and not Potter they would see that as a double standard. What I would not allow is the more fanatical aspects of it like buying the video game, the toys, the cards, Harry this and Harry that. :rolleyes:
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I disagree I sat down with my children and explained the diffence between Harry Potter and LOTR and they were able to understand why one was good and Holy and the other dark and not sure where it came from. I am not sure how old your children are but I let my two oldest watch LOTR now I do not believe the movie is for the yonger children but the older I think is fine. If you want to read some great infromation at the difference of Harry Potter and LOTR then go to family life center they have a ton of stuff on Harry Potter. catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Igpress/2001-12/dossier2.html
 
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agname:
Harry Potter is fiction…it’s fantasy…and it’s art. The Church usually doesn’t rule on art. JRR Tolkein (a Catholic) wrote “The Hobbit”…“Lord of the Rings”, etc.

As one priest said in Vatican City…"In each one’s childhood there have been fairy godmothers, magicians, angels and witches, which are not bad things but a help for children to understand the conflict between good and evil.”
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The problem that I understand about Harry Potter is that the good and evil are not necessarily defined. There is a lot of gray area the good like Harry Potter are using evil to get things and make things right. We are taught as Catholics we cannot do bad to end up with something good yet does not Harry do this by lying and other things. A great article on this is at: catholiceducation.org/articles/arts/al0088.html
 
While thinking about this thread I had this thought. The Harry Potter books center around spells, casting, learning spells, etc… Remove these from the story and you have almost no story. Tolkiens work is not centered around these things. You could easily remove them from the story and change things very little. The only magic you would have to keep is the evil magic ring that they are trying to destroy, because it causes great evil when it is used.
 
There are many people who are into conspiracy theories, who wish to attribute diabolical intent and influence to many things…

This is a work of fiction, fantasy, just as the Lord of the Rings… I saw someone make the claim that the LOTR was Holy… Now that is going to far… the LOTR is also a work of fiction, fantasy… It is not Holy.

Yes there is a christian influence to the LOTR but it is not easily seen. One must look for it to realise it is there.

The majority of things out there are not good nor evil, it is all in their use.

Now I know there are many who will ignore what I have to say on this and I will not bang my head against the wall :banghead: to convince you that you are wrong, as it is not worth the trouble.

I will continue to believe as I do as no one has shown any proof to change my mind.

One last comment before I stop commenting on this topic…

everlastingthur,
You might not have intended to be uncharitable to me, but attempting to draw a line between my saying that reading Harry Potter is good to having children read pornography was wrong and uncharitable. :tsktsk:
 
There is nothing Holy about Harry Potter.

Peter writes in 1 Peter 1 that we are to be holy as God is holy. We are to be holy in all things in our way of life. How can watching something that God condemns (witchcraft; and most things out of un-holy-wood) be a holy act?
 
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ByzCath:
Well then I think your wrong too…

To some how say what I am saying is that kids should read pornography is just plain stupid and a gross misrepresentation of what I was saying.

This sort of argument is nothing more than a Straw Man…

You can find the following definition as well as others at the this web site…

nizkor.org/features/fallacies/index.html#index
Description of Straw Man

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person’s actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of “reasoning” has the following pattern:

  1. *]Person A has position X.
    *]Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
    *]Person B attacks position Y.
    *]Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

    This sort of “reasoning” is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.
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  1. Nowhere in my comment did I say YOU said or were trying to say kids should read porn. Since you pulled the quote please read what I typed. You said if it gets kids to read it’s good. I merely stated an exageration. An exageration that wouldn’t be good for kids to read. If you’re a Potter fan that’s fine. Please don’t put words in my mouth by saying I’m putting words in yours. Have a nice day.
 
A while back in this thread is was suggested that someone read the book and find out for her/himself, rather than rely on everyone else’s opinion. I would caution against being willing to read everything that is morally questionable “to find out for oneself.” Adults though we may be, we have souls that can be influenced, and evil will make its attempts on us any way it can. That is not to say that you should never read a questionable book to find out. But before you do:
  1. Discern your real reason for exposing yourself to this material. Do you already know what all the sources you trust say on the topic? Is your knowing if it is good or bad going to help someone, rather than satisfy mere curiosity?
  2. Pray for wisdom from the Holy Spirit that you will recognize the good or evil that is in whatever you are looking at. Pray that you will not be influenced by anything evil, as a result of exposing yourself to the material.
I read the 1st Harry Potter book to learn for myself, did believe it would be helpful, and prayed every time I opened the book. I actually enjoyed it as a very good read. But as stated in an earlier post, I didn’t like the morality of the book. Having read the book at all, I am tempted to see the movie and know the rest of the story. But I also believe I know enough to form my opinion. And for me, reading or watching more of the series will just satisfy curiosity - something that I don’t think is worthwhile over what I see as a morally dangerous book. I know better than to think that just because I am not a child I can not be influenced by all the agents of popular culture.
 
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everlastingthur:
Fantasy and Your Family by Richard Abanes page 139 quotation from an interview.

Where I’m mentioning a creature, or a spell that people used to believe genuinely worked-of course, it didn’t…then, I will find out exactly what the words were, and I will find out exactly what the characteristics of that creature or ghost was supposed to be.

This link is an audio version of the show the quotation came from.
wamu.org/dr/shows/drarc_991018.html#wednesday

She has done research. During this interview she also says that "one-third of the occult-related ideas in her books ‘are things that people genuinely used to believe in Britain’ ". Later, after objections concerning the amount of real oocultism in her books began creating serious controversy, Rowling started contradicting her ‘one-third’ staements, claiming instead that she made up ‘at least 95 percent of it…just out of nowhere’ " (Fantasy and Your Family page 138-139.

This is just a small bit of what Abanes covers in his book. His claims are well cited with notes.
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does Abanes ever ask specifically which 1/3 of Rowlings writings are based on medieval English folklore? and does Rowling ever identify them?

of further note, does Abanes ever clarify that the ‘things that people genuinely used to believe in Britain’ were real and effective, and not just folklore?

again, a call for level-headedness. it’s easy to say that HP contains actual working spells, incantations and recipes for potions. it’s a completely different story to verify this as true and factual. if a former Wiccan tells us that the material in HP is not legit, (and by the way, i have also talked to active Wiccans, and they concur) then let’s take his word for it that it isn’t. we are not knowledgable of such things, why insist otherwise? :nope:

and to wit, i have not heard of anyone who has succeeded in magically levitating an object by waving a stick around and saying, “Wingardium Levi-O-sa!” (remember, it’s ‘Levi-O-sa,’ not Levio-sar!’ 😉 )
 
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