Harry Potter Confusion

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I’m calling this ARLENE’S PERSONAL QUESTIONNAIRE:

Having been raised by wonderful Catholic parents, who, thru their poverty and lack of education, somehow mixed their Catholicism with Eastern European folk-lore, superstitious practices, and questionable theology, I am asking if anyone on this thread has experienced the same. Therefore, do you - or have you ever participated in the following:

Knocked on Wood as some kind of protection from evil?
Made a wish on a chicken bone?
Said a prayer to a star or to the moon?
Called upon the powers of Fire, Earth, Water and Planets - as some feminist religious do so often?
Do you practice the Enneagram - as offered by many Catholic retreat houses and parishes today?
Follow the Horoscopes?
Had your Horoscope chart made up?
Visited a fortune teller, palm reader, tea leaf reader or dream interpreter?
Have you ever participated in a seance?
Have you ever been hypnotized - for fun or for therapy?
Have you ever buried St. Joseph upside down in the back yard to ensure the sale of your house/property?
Do you place 99 copies of the St. Jude Prayer in the back of the church to ensure your successful prayer quest to the Saint of the Impossible?
Do you believe in the power of chain letters?
Do you continue some of your family’s ancestral superstitious practices?
Name them.
Are you a syncretist? [All religions and gods the same in the end.]
Are you a gnostic? [Secret spirtual truths can only be awakened thru occult practices]
Are you a follower of Carl Jung? Matthew Fox? Teillhard Chardin?
Call to Action?
Are you attracted to Eastern Religions, Yoga, Transcendental Meditation, etc.?
Are you a Freemason?

It is very hard to corner what Catholics believe today. This may help me out.

Thanks, Arlene Alice
 
TIME OUT PLEASE!

Thank you. Now that I have everybody’s attention for a moment, I would like to point out that everyone who has posted in this thread has expressed a very strong, determined, set-in-concrete opinion on Harry Potter. May I have concensus on that statement? :yup: Because, ladies and gentlemen, you will not see concensus on any other aspect of this thread.

With that in mind, my I most humbly suggest that, instead of continuing to :banghead: in such increasingly impolite terms :tsktsk: , you might want to remember that there is no virtue in pursuing pointless detractions.

Moreover, since we are all equally determined that each of us has credentials which make us experts in the matter (and I, as an English teacher, certainly have some qualification to speak to Potter as Literature) and since there is not going to be any middle ground in this controversy…

I hereby suggest that ya’ll go for ice cream and hot dogs and soda pop, enjoy this beautiful Fourth of July holiday, go spend an hour in Adoration, and otherwise do something that will have some value in the scope of Eternity… and perhaps forget this thread exists? :hmmm:

Okey-dokey?

Have a great day! :tiphat:
 
Some of you have judged me as “judgemental” because I am entering this debate with having personally experienced the dark side of dabbling in the occult. Or that I think a Catholic Grandma who buys her grandchildren a Quija Board and opens the doorway into the occult [she also believes in re-incarnation] is questionable. Or that I have encountered “Harry Potter Catholics” who will fight me to the mat over this topic, calling me all sorts of names, least of them “ignoramus!”

So call me all the names you want - the First Amendment gives you that right. I would rather be called names in the search for the truth than to follow the crowds off of the cliff! I have offered you scriptural passages, web site resources, Catholic reading resources - even a questionnaire. I do this with a charitable concern over your soul, not your intellectual prowess.

Now, if you are tired of arguing with me, contact my friend Fr. Mitch Pacwa at EWTN www.fathermitchpacwa.org [author of Catholics and the New Age written from his own experience after dabbling in Eastern religions and the New Age Movement] who at one time gave me this very profound personal advice. “Follow Jesus through the Bible, the Catechism and the Sacraments…question everything else.”

I say “Amen” to that.
 
To Laura:

Can’t you see that we are all having a “great day” arguing over such “eternal” matters as Harry Potter? I don’t mind a heated debate, as long as one backs it with factual evidence, documentation, expert resources, etc.

I have to ask you if you have ever read the book, “I’m OK - You’re OK” ? [By the way, the author committed suicide. Something apparently was not OK.]

Should we all use your smiley faces, go have an ice cream soda, and say that all “Catholics” are OK ?

Uh…I don’t think so.
 
Arlene,

There comes a time when people are just arguing in order to hear their own brilliance. This is unbecoming conduct for a Christian, and I see it developing here.

Of course, I’m not a moderator, just a friendly Catholic Christian wanting to see everyone have a good time and enjoy one another’s best company… so if you wish, rant ahead.

Or as the Korean proverb states: “Spit straight up. Learn something.”
 
Arlene Alice:
Some of you have judged me as “judgemental” because I am entering this debate with having personally experienced the dark side of dabbling in the occult. Or that I think a Catholic Grandma who buys her grandchildren a Quija Board and opens the doorway into the occult [she also believes in re-incarnation] is questionable. Or that I have encountered “Harry Potter Catholics” who will fight me to the mat over this topic, calling me all sorts of names, least of them “ignoramus!”
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I hope you don’t mean me?

While I do admit I perceive you to be judgmental, it is not for such straw-man reasons you offer above; it is for the reasons that I wrote. Namely, that you have labelled some people as ‘“Catholic”’ (“scare quotes” and all). When you do this, I (and I believe, others) infer that you judge some people who self-identify as Catholic to be less-than-Catholic, or falsely-Catholic, or maybe-fooling-themselves-but-not-fooling-me-Catholic, not-even-Catholic. And you are willing to do so in some cases solely on the basis of their opinion of the Harry Potter books.

Have I misunderstood? Do you mean something else when you say (“scare quotes” and all) ‘“Catholic”’?
 
Arlene:

I get the impression from some of your posts that you think I was calling you judgemental. For the record, the first post I wrote in this thread, while it may have followed yours, was not addressed solely at you, and I invite you to read the first lines of it once again…

**Man o man…

This thread was a long read.

I understand everyone’s opinions, but I need to put my two cents in here…**

and then I type out my post from that point…a list of things I see, and nothing more.

After quoting your post to mine, I had said nothing more than occultism is the least of your worries…your response was…

Dear Story: Satan sometimes disguises himself as the “angel of light” ! I would guess that you have yet to make a mature discernment of what is darkness and what is light. Pray the prayer to the Holy Spirit - He will help you.

My answer:

First of all…you have no idea of what kind of discernment I may have…and you are not in a position to judge it…so don’t.

Yes, you were being judgemental. no, you didn’t hurt my feeling, but yes, you were judging something you cannot even truely see via a message post.

I have not called you names, not labled you in the least, and I doubt anyone on this board will or should do so.

But I still disagree with your assessment of the series, and will probably continue in that manner.

Thank you to all who have participted in this thread, but it obviously not going anywhere beyond this…so there is not much in reason for continuing this posting.

See you 'round the board.

Story
 
Fidelis, so glad you took the time to read those books, my middle schoolers have been so enamored with these books, they have read so much , reading the series, I just love that they are so into it, reading that is. I have so seen no ill effects, except that they tend to enjoy fantasy literature. I Know so many adult friends of mine who have enjoyed the books. Not my kind of reading so like I said I am really glad you did. You seem like you’re trying to raise your children with reason and calm and prayer.
 
Well, I guess I’ve lost Story’s attention - maybe that’s because Story has read some of the resources I’ve provided and decided that you can’t argue against the word of God. Either you believe the Bible is the word of God or you’re spitting up into the air, as Laura suggests.

Here’s the challenge: Take any good Catholic Bible Concordance and look up the topics: wizard, magic/magician, witch/witchcraft, seer, false gods, idols/idolatry, divination and sorcery…which describes all of the occult happenings in the Harry Potter series. There are at least 200 some references to these occult practices in the Bible[Old and New Testaments] with sound warnings that these practices are a grave offense against God, and in the Old Covenant, worthy of the death penalty - a direct assault against the First Commandment of God.

The link provided to the Twin Witches page of www.Scholastic.com, proves that our young children have been thoroughly seduced by occult practices thru the influence of the Harry Potter series, as they practice the art of spells and curses. See: scholastic.com/harrypotter/reading/curses.htm Are you a believer now?

And then Catholic parents on this thread can proudly proclaim that they see nothing dangerous about the Harry Potter craze. May I assume that they also see nothing dangerous about introducing their children to drugs, alcohol, porn, and pre-marital sex? What the heck, that’s popular, too !!!

Thank you much to those who have provided other sound links and resources, such as the gal’s testimony of experiencing the power of satan when she delved into an area of out of bounds for believing Christians. To her satan is real and uses all kinds of disguises to the unwary.

My dream is that in the next Harry Potter book, poor, mis-guided and family-abused [Catholic?] Harry, meets a “born-again” Catholic who leads him out of his present occult darkness, encourages him to make a good confession in order to repent of all of the offenses he has unwittingly practiced against the will of God, return to the Sacramental life of the Church and a “personal relationship” with Jesus Christ, by which he will then be “saved”, as our Evangelical brethren say.

I’m blowing bubbles in the air…of course, this won’t happen. Ms. Rowling’s popularity will become a complete bust, and she will thoroughly disgust her faithful readers, who demand fantasy, magic, witchcraft and hocus-pocus - instead of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior!
 
I can see you believe strongly about this topic Arlene, and I commend your passion, and respect your perspective on it.

As a parent myself, I know that my child will encounter things in her life that she will need to put into perspective. Harry Potter and his story being one of them.

I do not raise my daughter in a bubble- I equipt her with the strength and courage to make good choices and be a warrior for her Faith.

We read the Harry Potter stories, we also see the movies. But we do not participate in the commercialized aspect of the series- bedroom decorations, toys, websites, etc. where I believe most of the “harm” to children happens.

When children’s fantasies begin to creep into their reality- they would find it hard to discern the proper perspective. Almost all temptation happens this way, in my opinion. As people start to see things removed from their proper perspective in reality, temptation gets it’s hold on hearts and minds.

Some people are particularly sensitive, their temptations are particularly fierce on one thing or another. Those aspects in life where we are particularly sensitive- gets us into lots of trouble. Some people do not have the correct perspective on food- and it becomes a temptation, and then a problem if it is not put back into perspective. Food in and of itself has no evil aspect to it- it’s all in how we perceive it. Even Holy Scripture can be “molded” into terrible things by people who do not have the correct perspective on it.

I rely on God and the Church to put most things into perspective for my family- most Faithful do.

The stories by noted Catholic authors JRR Tolkein, or CS Lewis could be argued against for the same reasons as you are posing for Harry Potter. There is sorcery and magic in these stories as well. So the argument against the magic and sorcery in HP is becoming a bit weak.

I know there are Faithful Catholic people on both sides of the fence.

I duly note your passion against Harry Potter and tend to agree with you on some aspects of it. But where we differ- is all a matter of perspective. Since the Holy See has not made an official determination about this subject, I will continue to allow my family to practice perspective for the truly harsh battles we may face.
 
Dear Shiann:

Are we our “brother’s keepers?” Then I offer my opinion in that spirit of charity.

I will not challenge anyone’s authority or responsibility in the way they raise and influence their children. The Word of God and Church doctrine is sufficient in that area of duty. I am responsible only for my three children and seven grandchildren before the Throne of God.

The Vatican has already spoken regarding the subject of the occult in “You Shall Have No Other Gods Before Me.” Refer to your Catechism: Article 2110-2141. The Harry Potter book isn’t mentioned there - but you can get the drift.

Jesus Christ spoke VERY plainly against the occult. He never used the format of fantasy or illusion to teach or preach. His parables were based in reality to offer everyone - including little children - The WAY, TRUTH AND LIFE - the clearest and simplest of terms. Do not confuse His Divine Miracles with magic, nor His power source as being anything than from His Holy Father. If we as Catholics are “imitators” of Christ, than let’s imitate Christ - not be duped by the latest literary trends.

If you feel that exposing your children to literature which features occult practices gives honor and glory to God, that is solely your call. You will be the one accountable to God for influencing your own children - not me.
 
REPLY PART ONE

Of course it is absolutely obscene that anything should get our children not only reading, but off their fannies from their tvs and video games and out in the yard pretending to be someone else – like we used to do with Cowboys and Indians, Batman, Superman, and Robin Hood.

Okay, The English Teacher Speaks. These books are fantasy – that is, they are removed from the realm of realism by various devices, including magic, in order to convey their deepest meaning. No one with a grain of sense takes the wizardry in HP seriously.

Many of the names – of spells, plants, people – are Latinate. There are also strong hints of ancient mythologies. There is a degree of intellectual sophistication in the way Rowling uses these devices to enhance her story.

Harry is no more a bad influence on children or culture than that American Icon: Huckleberry Finn.

The very fact that they are fantastic – that is, of the fantasy genre – gives them a scope and a safety net that other forms of popular literature do not possess.

Explanation coming in PART TWO.
 
REPLY PART TWO

Of far greater concern to this mother, teacher, and Catholic Christian is the genre of teen fiction currently circulating and increasing in popularity in our area high schools.

This fiction is coming mostly out of major cities such as L.A., New York, San Francisco. The protagonists are usually young girls confronting issues such as bad relationships, drugs, teen sex. The authors and publishers say in interviews that the purpose behind these books is to warn girls of the dangers of easy sex, careless drug use, etc.; however, I dispute this fiercely.

The books actually serve to discourage our young girls from holding out for the good, the true, the beautiful, the virtuous. “After all, these books are ‘real life’ so what else is there?” one student said to me last year.

They portray sexual experimentation and even orgasm in very glowing terms, actually enticing kids into experimentation.

The fact that these novels are not fantasy but realism makes them more dangerous to our children than Harry Potter could ever hope to be.

If we as parents, teachers, Christians, would divert our energies from Harry Potter and attack our real enemy – realistic novels posing as “accurate representation of teen culture” that are undermining the safety of our children – then we might be onto something.

PART THREE follows.
 
REPLY PART THREE (and, for the record, I really dislike this space limitation for posts – I think three successive posts in order to complete my argument is for the birds)

Finally, I have observed among evangelical pentecostal Protestants, particularly in certain “Deliverance Ministries” an unhealthy preoccupation with demons. They seem almost to give more credit to Satan and his minions than to the One Who created them as angels and Who will ultimately defeat them and consign them into Hell.

Not only does this preoccupation distract us from our real work as Christians – after all, don’t we have enough to do, working to overcome our own sins and faults and to faithfully perform Works of Mercy? – but it also, on a very practical level, glorifies the Enemy of our Soul. And let’s not kid ourselves – we can invoke the Enemy’s presence where he might not have been lurking previously.

So I cannot take the diatribes against Harry Potter, nor those who rail against these books, too seriously. First, the very fact that the books are of the fantasy genre gives them a safety net against taking the wizardry seriously; second, there are far more serious, immediate, deadly and REAL threats to our children than these novels; and finally, after years with “deliverance ministry” protestant friends and acquaintances, I consider this preoccupation with demons more distorted than healthy.

Rant complete. Thank you for bearing with me.
 
  1. Also, the movie presents good witches and bad witches, when in reality, there is no such thing. All witches are evil.
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this is the authors representation of good vs. evil. Sure there are no good witches or bad witches. But the witches in the books aren’t real. If you sit down with your children and explain to them that in real life, there are no such things as good witches, I’m sure the book would never present a problem.
 
Arlene Alice:
Well, I guess I’ve lost Story’s attention - maybe that’s because Story has read some of the resources I’ve provided and decided that you can’t argue against the word of God.
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From what Story has written, I think it’s because Story knows better than I do when to stop banging his head against the wall. :banghead: I mean, if only this were a dialogue – If there was give and take – I could see benefit from it. But Arlene continues her monologue. I’ve given her opportunities and even asked direct questions, but she doesn’t respond to what I write.
Arlene Alice:
And then Catholic parents on this thread can proudly proclaim that they see nothing dangerous about the Harry Potter craze. May I assume that they also see nothing dangerous about introducing their children to drugs, alcohol, porn, and pre-marital sex? What the heck, that’s popular, too !!!
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Well, I’m sure you’ve heard what happens when you assume – And from what you’ve written thus far, I am quite sure I can’t possibly prevent you assuming anything.

tee
(reluctantly beginning to consider the value of the forum’s ignore list, if a correspondent is going to continue to ignore his writings)
 
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Shiann:
The stories by noted Catholic authors JRR Tolkein, or CS Lewis could be argued against for the same reasons as you are posing for Harry Potter.
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FTR C.S.Lewis was an Anglican.
 
Your right, my bad… I guess I forgot since so many Catholics recommend his writings…

Thanks for the heads up! 👍
 
I am fairly well versed in Potterism, having read the first three books and half of the fourth, and having seen all the movies.

The danger of Harry Potter is the subtlety. The series starts out innocently. The first book is very cute. It reads like Alice and Wonderland or The Wizard of Oz. I actually found the first book to be quite entertaining and clever, so I read book two.

Book two is not quite as cutesy as book one, but still very entertaining and clever. The themes are a bit more advanced. The writing is a bit more complicated. The magic is still pretty much unreal though.

Book three makes a big jump. It is not cute, but entertaining. It reads like an adult novel at this point. The themes are advanced. The magic in this book starts to wander into REAL Wiccan and Occult practices, whereas before, the magic was fictional. Example: reading tea leaves, palmistry, and incantations and divinations.

Book four starts out with a murder. It also starts out with a witch gathering. I didn’t care to read all 700 pages after reading 300 pages about this witch party.

The books suck you in. Before you realize it, you’re reading about REAL occult practices and REAL Magic. So are your children!!!
 
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