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adrift
Guest
It was the wrong thing to do and your priest is negligent in properly instructing you.
Has Anyone Here Ever Actually Triggered the Elimination of Abuses with a Letter or Meeting with Clergy?
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JReducation
Guest
What was the poor advice, to work the chain of command? That’s logic.
What’s condescending, to avoid clericalization? That’s also logic.
JR
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JReducation
Guest
But you’re saying it yourself. You were the extraordinary minister of holy communion and there was an ordinary minister standing close by. The thing to do is to bring it to the ordinary minister’s attention.
When you do this, then you are crossing over into his clerical state. This is what I mean by clericalization.
If you were alone, then there is no question on what to do.
JR
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Spiller
Guest
I’m not sure if we’re communicating. I have said that there is nothing wrong with writing letters. If you want to add footnotes, do so. Look at the post that you are citing. I’m saying it again.
JReducation;3696018:
discipline or call the clergy to accountability.
**
This is not allowed in the Church. ** The laity has a place in the Church. This is true. But if you look at the breakdown of the Church the highest place of honor in the Church is the Pope.
…Again, the secular laity has not authority to teach or correct those above them, even if they are right. This is the rule of the Church.
I have said to avoid clericalization. This is to be avoided at all costs. The two states must be kept separate. The laity is not to assume duties and roles that are proper to clerics. There is nothing uncatholic about that.
As to people being more Catholic than the Pope, you as well as I can read some of the posts that people place on these threads. You can’t deny that many seem to think that they know more than their bishops or clergy about Catholic law and liturgy.
This is an inversion of roles.
JR
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Spiller
Guest
Nope. You are wrong. The thing to do is reverently consume the dropped host ASAP. You are giving poor advice.But you’re saying it yourself. You were the extraordinary minister of holy communion and there was an ordinary minister standing close by. The thing to do is to bring it to the ordinary minister’s attention.
When you do this, then you are crossing over into his clerical state. This is what I mean by clericalization.
If you were alone, then there is no question on what to do.
JR
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adrift
Guest
Your advice is the one that is poor and not in line with what the Church teaches.Nope. You are wrong. The thing to do is reverently consume the dropped host ASAP. You are giving poor advice.
USCCB
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Spiller
Guest
You are wrong. Please quit giving out poor advice.
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Spiller
Guest
This is an exigent circumstance. Get over it.
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adrift
Guest
You give no evidence that I am wrong but I have provided evidence that you are wrong. I will correct your poor and incorrect advise. I now have a pretty good idea why you are not listened to.
Wrong way to handle it. There are proper procedures that you seem to proud to acknowledge. You need to educate yourself or stop serving in a capacity you are not equipped to handle.
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Spiller
Guest
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jmcrae
Guest
He has shown documentation that no lay person is ever to self-communicate. The wording seems clear.You’re wrong.
Don’t just say “you’re wrong.” Show the exception, in the documents.
Where is it written that a lay person may self-communicate a dropped host while standing next to a priest, or while in the same building where there is likely to be a priest in the vicinity?
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Spiller
Guest
The documentation simply does not cover an emergency situation like a dropped host. Sorry about that but you too are wrong.
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jmcrae
Guest
And you wonder why you aren’t taken seriously by your priest …
Listen, in all charity, if you don’t know the teaching, don’t try to teach it. Especially not to a priest - the priesthood is not some kind of homeless work-for-food program, you know - they actually do go to school and take training to do that.
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Spiller
Guest
Again, I’m sorry but you are wrong.And you wonder why you aren’t taken seriously by your priest …
Listen, in all charity, if you don’t know the teaching, don’t try to teach it. Especially not to a priest - the priesthood is not some kind of homeless work-for-food program, you know - they actually do go to school and take training to do that.
If a consecrated host hits a floor around me, I am going to try to pick it up and consume it. Same as if I am the one dropping it. No way am I going to wait for someone else to pick it up. No way am I going to go looking for a priest to pick it up. Nor am I going to pick it up and try giving it to the next person in line.
Thankfully the Church does not require me to do so…
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Like
Guest
I’ll 2nd. that!
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Joysong
Guest
Let’s review the ambiguity, shall we?Joysong:
There is also the distinct possibility that the problem rests with you…
Original post by Spiller: One week ago I found a large hunk of one of those huge hosts under the altar at my parish during Mass – I saw it while kneeling as I was serving Mass. I presume it was consecrated.
Assumption by reader: A segment of a large host that the priest lifts up at consecration, and not an individual round small host usually distributed to communicants.
That being the case, I believe your assumption of lack of training is groundless, because EMHC’s would not have been responsible for fractioning the large host. It would be the priest. Do you therefore imply that this priest is not properly trained? As I mentioned, his vesture may have accidentally knocked it from the paten. Yet you presume to call the priest accountable for lack of training and being out of control.
Were you serving as EMHC or as an altar server? According to the latest revisions to the GIRM, EMHC’s are not permitted to be in the sanctuary during mass, other than at the time of distribution. So how did you observe it as opposed to others not seeing it? Especially since you say it was “under the altar”.
So in your grand manner, in front of everyone else to make an example of the priest’s negligence, you “stood up” so others could observe you doing the right thing.
I believe this is inexcusable, particularly because you directly stated that both times the ‘chunks’ were in the sanctuary overnight and you knew of it 45 minutes before mass. Why did you not give it to the priest before mass began and bring it to his attention? There is a procedure for the priest to follow in these instances.
No, Spiller, I don’t believe the ‘distinct possiblilty’ of the problem rests with me. This whole matter is shrouded with ambiguity.
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crenfro
Guest
I sent a letter to the bishop when the USCCB published a positive review of that movie, The Golden Compass, asking them to fire whoever wrote that review.
…got a letter back saying that they’d retracted the review …
but I did that because I heard someone else suggest it… it wasn’t on my own exactly.
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japhy
Guest
GIRM 280 says, quite simply, that “[if] a host or any particle should fall, it is to be picked up reverently.” It does not restrict who can pick it up. If you are going to say that an EMHC may not pick up and consume a fallen host, then neither can he pick up the host to give to a priest because that would be “clericization”. Which means that, until a priest comes over, the host must remain there (perhaps covered by a purificator).
The USCCB says this: “If the Eucharistic bread or some particle of it falls, it should be picked up reverently by the minister. The consecrated bread may be consumed or completely dissolved in water before being poured down the sacrarium.”
While I am not sure about Spiller’s course of action with the host under the altar (I think I would have alerted the priest to its presence, rather than consume the host during Mass before the priest’s own Communion), I think he made the right call in this other case, where as an EMHC he noticed a host dropped by the priest and consumed it immediately.
The USCCB says this: “If the Eucharistic bread or some particle of it falls, it should be picked up reverently by the minister. The consecrated bread may be consumed or completely dissolved in water before being poured down the sacrarium.”
While I am not sure about Spiller’s course of action with the host under the altar (I think I would have alerted the priest to its presence, rather than consume the host during Mass before the priest’s own Communion), I think he made the right call in this other case, where as an EMHC he noticed a host dropped by the priest and consumed it immediately.
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Spiller
Guest
On top of that, common sense clearly drives one to pick-up and consume the dropped host.
The second one was one in a million. While kneeling behind and off to the side of the altar I thought I saw a hunk of a host under the altar, next to the floor-standing altar candles. I was fairly sure but the angle was not right. Only after beginning to stand at the end of the great amen was I certain it was part of a host.
I took a few steps forward, bent down and retrieved the piece of host, took a few steps backwards and reverently consumed it. Yeah, I could have made a bigger deal out of it, but I think it would have been too distracting from the Mass.
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Spiller
Guest
Talk about “assumption”(s)! Your’s continue to attack me based on your own. Before making the next one try asking for whatever fact you are missing.
While EMsHC do not fraction the large hosts, they certainly move them from one vessel to another. Oh, you didn’t know this? Before going off half-cocked, maybe you should have asked?
Thankfully EMsHC no longer distribute the hosts from the huge “ciborium” to the individual ciboria used to distribute communion. They do however take hosts (and chunks thereof) from the distribution ciboria to the tabernacle ciborium and vice versa RIGHT in that area. Sometimes they also consolidate the contents of two or more distribution ciboria in that area. Furthermore the LARGE number of EMsHC in the sanctuary surrounding the altar when father fills the distribution ciboria before he himself takes communion makes for a VERY crowded and confused setting. Go ahead and count the delicts/abuses from what I just typed.
Good, you are learning. Now go re-read my initial posting. Note the part where I said I was serving Mass. “Serving Mass” is NEVER used to describe the function of an EMHC – it describes the function of an altar server. Your red herring stinks.
Grand manner? More sarcastic hyperbole? I stood-up because the great amen was over. Try reading posting #1 very carefully.
I feel sorry for you. You are making nasty and inaccurate comments based on your personal assumptions for no reason. The chunks of hosts had to be in the Church overnight. They both took place at 07:00 Masses and I opened the church and set-up for both Masses. One Saturday morning (the last Mass on the previous day was noon) and on a Sunday (5:00 vigil Mass)
The one on Sunday I found in front of the credence table at about 06:05 - 06:15 – 45-55 minutes before Mass began. A priest would not be present for another 35-45 minutes. No way was I not going to consume it immediately. Yeah, the procedure for the priest is to give me an odd look for not having consumed it myself more than a half-hour before and then consume it himself.
The one on Saturday I found during Mass, just before the great amen.
You are showing a prime example of why people should not assume things. A little information can be a dangerous thing. Your ego is bruised because you were wrong about the self-communication matter in this context. In response you assumed a bunch of garbage about the situation in order to persecute me.
Now go ahead. Come-up with some more assumptions so you can attack me again…
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