Has anyone read the Qu 'ran? (A question for Muslims as well)

[GaryTaylor]

Islamic tradition acknowledges Mary’s “spotlessness” in the Qur’an, written in the 7th century. George Sale reports, in his translation of the Qur’an that the immaculate conception had long been an Islamic tradition.

Is this correct Islamic teaching “today”?

 

[meedo]

Islamic tradition acknowledges Mary’s “spotlessness” in the Qur’an, written in the 7th century. George Sale reports, in his translation of the Qur’an that the immaculate conception had long been an Islamic tradition.

Is this correct Islamic teaching “today”?

Yes

 

[Thyme]

Yes

Just out of curiosity, does the Qu 'ran say why God chose sinless Mary and kept her a virgin?

 

[Bwtby]

Here is a great article… I love it.

muslimmatters.org/2010/08/04/the-real-miss-universe-maryam-bint-imran/

 

[Windfish]

I have not read all of this thread, but I have several questions:

1. What is the best translation of the Qu’ran to use? Muslims say that the only way to read it is in the original language, but I have no plans of learning Arabic any time soon. And are the translations really that off?
2. What is the interpretive key or rule for reading and understanding the Qu’ran? In Christianity, the Bible cannot be read without relation to Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium of the Catholic Church - all three comprise the Christian Revelation, and they clarify and inform one another so that, reading the Bible in isolation from the Church will lead one to many errors. Is there a similar system with the Qu’ran? I do not want to read it and interpret it incorrectly.
3. In the Qu’ran, it seems to indicate that the Christian doctrine of the Trinity consists of God the Father, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and Jesus the Christ. Is this true? If so, this is simply incorrect.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Did they attack the Muslims in the Qu 'ran like the Pagans did? I was just wondering because there are many hateful writings about Jews and Christians. I don’t want to quote them here because they are quite negative, but I would like to know the Muslim interpretation of view on them.

Christians didn’t, and you don’t find Muslims being commanded to fight them, either. Some, and I’ll emphasize only some, did join with the pagans and violated a treaty they had with the Muslims.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I have not read all of this thread, but I have several questions:

1. What is the best translation of the Qu’ran to use? Muslims say that the only way to read it is in the original language, but I have no plans of learning Arabic any time soon. And are the translations really that off?
2. What is the interpretive key or rule for reading and understanding the Qu’ran? In Christianity, the Bible cannot be read without relation to Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium of the Catholic Church - all three comprise the Christian Revelation, and they clarify and inform one another so that, reading the Bible in isolation from the Church will lead one to many errors. Is there a similar system with the Qu’ran? I do not want to read it and interpret it incorrectly.
3. In the Qu’ran, it seems to indicate that the Christian doctrine of the Trinity consists of God the Father, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and Jesus the Christ. Is this true? If so, this is simply incorrect.

1. You should probably go with the one by M.A.S Abdul Haleem
2. Read it, and if you find something you don’t understand, ask someone. You can start with checking other translations (several online) or an English commentary, or just ask some Muslim scholar. Don’t worry about “interpreting” anything, just read it.
3. No, some people (Muslims among them) really misread what the Qur’an is saying, and conflate two entirely different concepts.

 

[Thyme]

Christians didn’t, and you don’t find Muslims being commanded to fight them, either. Some, and I’ll emphasize only some, did join with the pagans and violated a treaty they had with the Muslims.

Thank you.

1. No, some people (Muslims among them) really misread what the Qur’an is saying, and conflate two entirely different concepts.

1)How are:

“And behold! Allah will say: ‘O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah’?”

2)And what is the correct way to read the Qu 'ran when it says that Christians worship three gods?

3)What is the Muslim view on hadiths? Are there certain hadiths that all Musims accept?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Thank you.

1)How are:

2)And what is the correct way to read the Qu 'ran when it says that Christians worship three gods?

3)What is the Muslim view on hadiths? Are there certain hadiths that all Musims accept?

Let’s look at the ayah, 5:116:

And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: ‘Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?’ " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner-self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All-Knower of all that is hidden and unseen.

This ayah doesn’t talk about the Trinity, so just read it as it is, without reading Trinity into it. The Trinity is mentioned in other places, but not here, which is why I said that two concepts are conflated. Those two concepts are (1) the Trinity, and (2) worshiping Mary.

So the mistake some people make is thinking that worship of Mary is part of the Trinity, which of course is incorrect. Note how nowhere in the Qur’an is it ever even implied that Mary is part of the Trinity.

What is implied, however, is that Mary is worshiped. I think Christians might argue with that, but that is how Islam views Mary’s place in the religion, especially in Catholicism (moreso than Protestantism), that she is worshiped, in that she is prayed to. Muslims consider that to be worship.

The Trinity is referred to in other places, though.

If you find something in the Qur’an that you disagree with, regarding your own worship, then just say as much, i.e., that you disagree with it. But try and figure out what it means if you want, and why it doesn’t actually say that Christians worship three gods. And contemplate on why it doesn’t say that. I think it’s interesting.

1. There are standards for accepting hadith, and qualified scholars will examine them and grade them, and once they are accepted as being sound, pretty much everyone accepts them. But Shi’a have a different standard.

 

[Windfish]

Let’s look at the ayah, 5:116:

And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: ‘Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?’ " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner-self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All-Knower of all that is hidden and unseen.

This ayah doesn’t talk about the Trinity, so just read it as it is, without reading Trinity into it. The Trinity is mentioned in other places, but not here, which is why I said that two concepts are conflated. Those two concepts are (1) the Trinity, and (2) worshiping Mary.

So the mistake some people make is thinking that worship of Mary is part of the Trinity, which of course is incorrect. Note how nowhere in the Qur’an is it ever even implied that Mary is part of the Trinity.

What is implied, however, is that Mary is worshiped. I think Christians might argue with that, but that is how Islam views Mary’s place in the religion, especially in Catholicism (moreso than Protestantism), that she is worshiped, in that she is prayed to. Muslims consider that to be worship.

The Trinity is referred to in other places, though.

If you find something in the Qur’an that you disagree with, regarding your own worship, then just say as much, i.e., that you disagree with it. But try and figure out what it means if you want, and why it doesn’t actually say that Christians worship three gods. And contemplate on why it doesn’t say that. I think it’s interesting.

1. There are standards for accepting hadith, and qualified scholars will examine them and grade them, and once they are accepted as being sound, pretty much everyone accepts them. But Shi’a have a different standard.

I suppose that this explanation suffices, but only technically.

EDIT: The Qu’ran, when it mentions the Trinity, attacks a doctrine of the Trinity that we don’t have. This is not necessarily a problem for the Qu’ran, since it does not commit itself to saying that is what Christians believe. If it had, though, I think that would make short work of the Qu’ran’s claim to being direct revelation from Allah - how could Allah err?

 

[Sister_Amy]

I suppose that this explanation suffices, but only technically.

EDIT: The Qu’ran, when it mentions the Trinity, attacks a doctrine of the Trinity that we don’t have. This is not necessarily a problem for the Qu’ran, since it does not commit itself to saying that is what Christians believe. If it had, though, I think that would make short work of the Qu’ran’s claim to being direct revelation from Allah - how could Allah err?

The Qur’an is able to quite magnificently (in my opinion anyway) refute a variety of Christian doctrines (those which manifest in different times and places) in just a few words. It’s actually not important to the Muslim what a Christian believes in particular–because so many people who call themselves “Christian” believe very different things.

 

[dzheremi]

What a cop out. “We don’t need to actually refute orthodox Christian doctrine, because some Christians somewhere once possibly believed as the Qur’an says they do.” If that is good enough for you, then I hope you will at least be consistent and not blame Christians for conflating Muslims in general with the likes of Al-Qaeda and their ilk. After all, they’re “Muslims”, so it is enough that we oppose Islam on account of what they believe.

 

[Sister_Amy]

What a cop out. “We don’t need to actually refute orthodox Christian doctrine, because some Christians somewhere once possibly believed as the Qur’an says they do.” If that is good enough for you, then I hope you will at least be consistent and not blame Christians for conflating Muslims in general with the likes of Al-Qaeda and their ilk. After all, they’re “Muslims”, so it is enough that we oppose Islam on account of what they believe.

Eh? What is “orthodox Christian doctrine” to you, is quite something else to other Christians. What qualifies as “Christian doctrine” is not uniform. You might think you’re the only one that’s right… but so do the rest.

I had a higher opinion of you than someone who would justify his own ignorance with the ignorance of others.

 

[Windfish]

The Qur’an is able to quite magnificently (in my opinion anyway) refute a variety of Christian doctrines (those which manifest in different times and places) in just a few words. It’s actually not important to the Muslim what a Christian believes in particular–because so many people who call themselves “Christian” believe very different things.

Are any of those doctrines Catholic?

Let me ask you this: is Allah all-merciful and all-just? If so, how does Islam resolve the contradiction that results from these two qualities? Christianity does it with the Cross. What does Islam do?

EDIT: Also, since it is historically certain that Jesus of Nazareth was crucified, how does the Muslim reconcile this fact with what the Qu’ran says?

 

[dzheremi]

Again, Amy: If it is not important to you what individual Christians believe because Christians as a whole believe in different things, then you should have no problem with Christian assertions of the same principle with regard to Islam. Since you clearly do, it is quite unfair to subject us to a standard to which you would not hold your own faith.

 

[Windfish]

Again, Amy: If it not important to you what individual Christians believe because Christians as a whole believe in different things, then you should have no problem with Christian assertions of the same principle with regard to Islam. Since you clearly do, it is quite unfair to subject us to a standard to which you would not hold your own faith.

What this means is that the writers of the Qu’ran were in contact with Christians who subscribed to that early heresy. If the Qu’ran had committed itself to saying that this is what Christianity taught, than it would make short work of the validity of Islam. The way Sister Amy resolved this is a technicality, I know, but it works logically (though historically may be another matter). However, it definitely doesn’t look very good to the outsider.

 

[dzheremi]

Yes, Windfish. It is well-documented the Muhammad came into contact with a renegade monk (different polemical sources paint him as being a member of different churches, depending on who was out of favor with the chronicler) by the name of Bahira (in Assyrian sources, his full name is given as Sargus Bahira), from whom he received some kind of rudimentary education in “Christianity”. This, of course, means nothing for Amy’s particular argument, which is what I have a problem with. (The Qur’an has its own set of problems, certainly.)

 

[Windfish]

Yes, Windfish. It is well-documented the Muhammad came into contact with a renegade monk (different polemical sources paint him as being a member of different churches, depending on who was out of favor with the chronicler) by the name of Bahira (in Assyrian sources, his full name is given as Sargus Bahira), from whom he received some kind of rudimentary education in “Christianity”. This, of course, means nothing for Amy’s particular argument, which is what I have a problem with. (The Qur’an has its own set of problems, certainly.)

What is your problem with Amy’s argument? Like you, I read that passage within the context of the other admonitions on the (false understanding) of the Blessed Trinity, but the fact remains that the Qu’ran does not commit itself to saying that is the teaching of the Catholic Church. If it had, Islam would be more clearly false religion. But it did not, and Amy’s resolution is a valid one, though very technical.

By the way, are you Catholic? You seem to know a lot about Islam AND Christianity.

 

[dzheremi]

Okay. I suppose we are approaching it from different angles. My problem is not with the fact that the Qur’an does not present Christian doctrine as we know it*, as I would not expect it to to begin with (what with Muhammad’s knowledge of Christianity being extremely suspect at best). My problem is with Amy’s assertion that it is not important that Muslims deal with objections to the ideas contained therein as representing Christianity. When we say that no Christian in his right mind believes as the Qur’an says we do, Amy’s reply is that it doesn’t matter because who can really say what Christians believe, given all their doctrinal divisions? This would be a good point, except…

*- While it is true that what makes for orthodox Christian doctrine varies according to who you ask, it is likewise true that there are core tenets of Christianity which all of the Apostolic Churches (and a great many churches which do not have apostolic foundations) share, even if we do not necessarily share the same understandings of them (ex: filioque argument, EO/OO division, etc.), such as:

• Belief in the Divinity and Sonship of the only-begotten, Jesus Christ
• Belief in the Holy Trinity
• Belief in the crucifixion of Christ and His glorious resurrection

What those who argue against Christianity citing the existence of non-Trinitarian henotheist or anti-Christian groups (Mormons, Oneness Pentecostals, etc.) as evidence of Christianity’s division don’t seem to realize is that these fundamental Christian beliefs were decided upon with direct reference to those same groups and their heresies (if it were otherwise, why would we have ever had the councils? To just meet and congratulate ourselves on how much we all agree?). So these fundamental beliefs were and are the hallmark of Christian orthodoxy, even if they had/have limited or no currency in any particular time or place. What those who do not embrace them believe instead ought not to be used as a cudgel against those who.

No, I am not Catholic.

 

[dzheremi]

Whoops. Accidentally left out a crucial “do” at the end of that last paragraph, too late to edit…