Has the #MeToo movement become a witch-hunt to a significant degree?

[pnewton]

How often do you try to kiss someone so suddenly that you honestly have no way to know she has no intention of kissing you back, such that you can’t call off the intended attempt?

I have never kissed anyone that I knew for a fact was ready and wanting to kiss me. I suspected and believed it to be the case. Surely I felt it, but until one kisses a girl, one does not know. I can’t believe this is not self-evident. It is the nature of developing relationships.

 

[Cruciferi]

I thank God everyday that I’m single. Maybe one day I’ll date.

“But It Is Not This Day!”

 

[DarkLight]

This is a response to my first question, which we’ve already followed up on at length. I don’t have time to go back this far in the thread.

The part where you were already talking about/encouraging a relationship should also have been brought up earlier - it’s quite relevant.

Because as a young woman, my thought from your initial description goes to a scenario where I’m just there doing my job and don’t have any interactions at all with the man beyond professional. And suddenly I find him grabbing and kissing me. I’m not going to be pleased by that at all, but it’s also going to be the kind of situation I might “go along with” because it’s scary. After all, if I say no, I could very well lose my job. And anyway, we’re alone and this guy’s suddenly kissing me, what happens if that’s not all he wants? I’d better not make him angry.

 

[Xantippe]

A question about a particular incident is not an invitation to post your opinions on the person and their morality, especially when you have only a fragment of information about the incident and persons.

I expect the irony in the above remark will be lost, unless I point it out, which I’m doing now.

Well, it is actually kind of bad form to ask a question, and then announce that you didn’t supply the necessary context for answering the question…

I still am squicked out by the idea of trying to kiss your mom’s employee while she was at work.

 

[Xantippe]

I’m so glad that I grew up in an era when young men and women were expected to handle these things between themselves, and did.

You grew up in a time with a very high reported rate of sexual assault.

It wasn’t actually a golden age.

 

[DarkLight]

I’m so glad that I grew up in an era when young men and women were expected to handle these things between themselves, and did.

Point of fact, a lot of times “handle things between themselves” really did end up with tolerating harassment. The thing people forget is that you can’t work things out unless both parties are interested in working things out. Sometimes working things out meant “I really can’t afford to lose this job and I don’t have any recourse against this guy, so I guess I don’t have a choice but to put up with it.” Or sometimes even “If I say anything I’m going to be the one who gets a bad reputation for seducing him, so I’ll just keep quiet.”

 

[Edmundus1581]

I have never kissed anyone that I knew for a fact was ready and wanting to kiss me. I suspected and believed it to be the case. Surely I felt it, but until one kisses a girl, one does not know.

Ditto. In the (very) few cases where I initiated a “first kiss” I didn’t know for certain either. Also, in each case the attempted kiss was not just “taking” from the woman, but an attempt to show my feelings and progress the relationship - in a mutually pleasing manner. In this particular instance the timing wasn’t right, and she showed me. It didn’t stop us continuing the relationship, and kissing at another time.

No doubt there have been men who have totally misread the situation, and the kiss and relationship were not wanted. These men still deserve the benefit of the doubt, so long as they accept the No.

I can’t believe this is not self-evident. It is the nature of developing relationships.

(emphasis added)

Indeed!!! However it is not self-evident anymore, and is now on the agenda to be criminalized.

 

[Xantippe]

No doubt there have been men who have totally misread the situation, and the kiss and relationship were not wanted. These men still deserve the benefit of the doubt, so long as they accept the No.

So, guys ought to be able to just plant kisses on random women just because they want to? One free kiss from every single woman on earth? You realize that there are people out there saving their first kiss for their wedding day, so it’s really obnoxious to assume that an unwanted kiss is not a big deal–it would be a huge big deal for the Duggar girls and similar. (I don’t agree with saving a first kiss for the wedding, but they’re out there–you can even find them on CAF.)

As somebody upthread was saying, what’s wrong with asking before going for a first kiss? If she’s interested, she’ll probably say yes, if she’s not, she’ll say probably say no, and a lot of awkwardness and a moment of grossness will be avoided. Also, it’s possible that the woman is interested in the kiss, but jerks away if suddenly surprised–which is very likely what happened with Edmundus.

 

[DarkLight]

No doubt there have been men who have totally misread the situation, and the kiss and relationship were not wanted. These men still deserve the benefit of the doubt, so long as they accept the No.

There’s a post I read a long time ago that was taken down later on. It provided an analogy.

Suppose you’re at a party, and you’re having a discussion on some controversial subject - say politics. It’s getting a bit heated but not too bad so far. And then the person with you leans over you and puts their hands on either side of your head so you’re between them and the wall. You realize you’re out in the hallway where no one’s around and you’re not sure someone could hear you. They hit the wall, they’re in your face shouting.

You agree with them and tell them that you were wrong and you see their point now. Not because you actually agree, but because you’re alone and they’re acting scary and you just want them to go away. But then later you’re talking with a friend on the same topic, and you get told, “No, I heard you tell that other guy you agreed with him. I just can’t believe you. I mean, he was just talking, he didn’t threaten you, so I think you’re just changing your mind and don’t want to admit it.”

That’s not an uncommon situation for women. Look up the “because of the implication” sketch from Friends - same issue. If you’re alone with a guy who’s putting you in a situation where he doesn’t seem to care if you want to or not, you’re much more likely to go along with it because if he really doesn’t care it’s going to go badly.

And yes, I was one of the women who wanted to save her first kiss for marriage and had someone grab and kiss me without asking. It’s not a happy memory, it’s a memory of being upset and scared and not really sure what to do or who would take me seriously.

 

[Edmundus1581]

@Xantippe and @DarkLight you seem to be talking about forcing a kiss. I agree with you ladies there.

That’s not the same as attempting a kiss, and accepting a rejection (which I described in my case).

Many women do want the man to take the initiative for the first kiss (and many subsequent ones!). However, there’s a chance that he’ll misread her. He wouldn’t be “taking the initiative”, otherwise. That’s part of the difference between the sexes. I remember that after I kissed the woman I would eventually marry she went and enthusiastically told her friends “He kissed me!!!”. She didn’t say “We kissed”.

Peace.

 

[DarkLight]

@Xantippe and @DarkLight you seem to be talking about forcing a kiss. I agree with you ladies there.

That’s not the same as attempting a kiss, and accepting a rejection (which I described in my case).

If you plant a kiss on a woman before she has a chance to react, what’s the difference?

 

[ConstantLearner]

I’m a man and I voted Yes, and was appalled/amazed at the number of No responses.

I’m a thirty-something woman who voted Yes.

 

[ConstantLearner]

I don’t have a problem with women coming forward. I have a problem with women who come forward once they played the game to get ahead in their careers.

That’s exactly how I feel. No woman, or man, should be harassed or raped, but if they don’t come forward immediately, let the chips fall where they may. They made their choice, now they should live with it.

 

[DarkLight]

That’s exactly how I feel. No woman, or man, should be harassed or raped, but if they don’t come forward immediately, let the chips fall where they may.

That’s going to hit a lot of us.

Why would I have come forward at the time? In the environment I was in, all it would have done is make everyone think I was a slut who was causing drama. Wouldn’t have had any consequences for the guy anyway.

 

[ConstantLearner]

Why would I have come forward at the time? In the environment I was in, all it would have done is make everyone think I was a slut who was causing drama. Wouldn’t have had any consequences for the guy anyway.

Rape and harassment have always been illegal. Women owe it to other women to come forward immediately.

 

[DarkLight]

Rape and harassment have always been illegal. Women owe it to other women to come forward immediately.

And? There’s lots of illegal things that are routinely tolerated. Plenty of women have reported being assaulted and all that happens is they get a bad reputation as “that chick who regretted it and decided to report.” Doesn’t do any good to make it illegal if the prevailing theory is that women report it because they’re liars who want to hurt a guy.

Also, FYI, harassment isn’t always illegal outside of a work context.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

Rape and harassment have always been illegal. Women owe it to other women to come forward immediately.

Most reports don’t lead to convictions in sexual assault cases though. Not to mention that 15% of sexual assault and rape victims are under the age of 12: should a victim of pedophilia give up hope for justice because they were too young to report the crime when it happened?

 

[Xantippe]

That’s exactly how I feel. No woman, or man, should be harassed or raped, but if they don’t come forward immediately, let the chips fall where they may. They made their choice, now they should live with it.

Really? Why?

Why do the rules for this need to be framed in the way that is most convenient for perverts and predators?

If you’ve read any of these threads at all, you’ll know that there is a substantial number of people who assume that any female accuser must be a liar, an attention seeker and promiscuous. There are people (including on this thread) who believe that if half a dozen women accuse a man of sexual harassment that it’s at best a toss up as to whether anything bad actually happened.

 

[ConstantLearner]

Most reports don’t lead to convictions in sexual assault cases though. Not to mention that 15% of sexual assault and rape victims are under age 12: you can’t blame a kid for not reporting right away.

Not all murder charges end in a conviction, either, but we shouldn’t wait 30 years to report one if we know about it just because it might reflect badly on us or we might not be believed.

I don’t blame a kid for not saying anything, just the adults who know better and don’t say anything. A kid might not even know what harassment is.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Rape and harassment have always been illegal. Women owe it to other women to come forward immediately.

First of all, they have not always been illegal. And just because legal doesn’t mean reporting it works out in favor of the victim.

I did not know what to do, to whom to report it to. I was young and well before publicized cases that might have given me a clue. Putting this burden on victims and targets is callous.