Has the #MeToo movement become a witch-hunt to a significant degree?

[Plmokn]

Confidence won’t protect girls against rape, pedophilia, cyber-bullying, and a whole host of other things. We as a society need to do a better job of believing victims, increasing trust in the justice system, and educating people about consent before we can presume to tell girls how they need to shape up.

Correct. But confidence will help them report these things when they happen. The more perps understand this sort of thing will be reported and dealt with, perhaps the less often it will happen. I don’t think the victims of these issues need to be told to shape up. I think they need to be taught that reporting is a choice, and the correct choice is to report when a crime or injustice has been commited. That is where we fall short. Someone earlier in this thread said this sort of behavior has been around since the beginning of time. I believe that. It is what we decide we are going to do about it that matters.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

That may very well be the case. However, you don’t go along with abhorrent behavior so you can get what you want because you feel inadequate and then wait until years later to expose it for what it is. : Sexual assault and sexual harassment are two different things. Sexual assault should be reported to the law immediately. Sexual harassment should be reported to authorities immediately and then one should consider suing the offending parties if the issue isn’t resolved. Not stick around to build a career in the industry that is seemingly built around this sort of thing, without doing something is real time to have corrections made. I realize my attitude can be considered by many as victim blaming, but I don’t see it that way. If someone clobbered you over the head in a really bad part of town, but you kept going back, and kept getting clobbered, what would you expect others might think about that? It just defies common sense. Unless, of course, you were getting something in return for the clobber that you thought made it worthwhile. And you realized the clobber was wrong, but liked what you were getting in return, so you decided to look the other way when you got clobbered. To me, this sort of thing with these celebrities is very transactional. If some man at my job exposed himself to me and then implied I could advance my career by engaging him, I promise you it would be the last time he tried that with me. It wouldn’t go well for him. I am a confident person and know I can work three jobs if I have to to support myself. That is my point. We need to raise our girls to know they don’t have to tolerate this nonsense.

I don’t know what Gwyneth Paltrow’s motive for staying quiet was. Many women who would not have considered what happened to them sexual assault/harassment at the time, or considered themselves innocent victims, are looking back in hindsight and realizing that “oh yeah, what happened to me was wrong, and I did not deserve it.”

 

[Plmokn]

Well if that is the case, they need to share that part of the story, too. Otherwise it isn’t a full picture. Full truth is what is important in these cases. How about telling young acresses, you don’t need to do the things people in my generation did to get ahead. It is a new day. Be strong and support eachother. Not really the message a lot of them are sending. All I am saying is that in many of these high profile cases, there is a personal accountability factor that is disregarded. There are always going to be people around who are offensive, undignified, and assaultive on personal dignity of those around them, and even criminal in their behaviors. We have a choice to either tolerate it or not. That is all I am saying. If you tolerate it, you are part of perpetuating the problem in ways you may not even consider at the time. We need to raise our girls with the confidence to handle these situations.

 

[Cruciferi]

Throughout this Thread, I’ve noticed blatant side stepping concerning the topic of Religious Morality. I find this profoundly disturbing and it smells of Secular Humanism.

Humanity cannot solve its societal woes without God. No amount of Legislation will take the place of God’s Laws. We can protest, march, and make impassioned speeches; however, until society accepts the Antidote, which is the Catholic Church, we’ll have NO peace.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

Humanity cannot solve its societal woes without God. No amount of Legislation will take the place of God’s Laws. We can protest, march, and make impassioned speeches; however, until society accepts the Antidote, which is the Catholic Church, we’ll have NO peace.

No amount of moralizing will convince sick people, i.e. psychopaths, sociopaths, narcissists, sadists, etc, to not be abusive. Also, saying that the Church is the only cure is a convenient excuse for people who like to sidestep the issue: “Oh ho! You say that sexual abuse is an issue in our society? Well, that’s what we get for not aligning ourselves with Christendom!”

When I was a freshman in college, I had a radio show, and at one point I invited a seminarian on to discuss pro-life topics. This guy tried to use my show as a platform for the “New Evangelization,” and had a whole spiel which extolled the beauty and necessity of Catholic doctrine, yada-yada, while I was sitting there like, “I just wanted to talk about abortion!” My point is, when you’re dealing with an urgent issue like rape or abortion, that is not the time to evangelize people, because a) addressing those issues requires an incredible amount of focus, and 2) most people won’t take your attempts to proselytize seriously.

 

[Cruciferi]

You make many comments and critiques; however, I have yet to see you present a solution.

No amount of moralizing will convince sick people, i.e. psychopaths, sociopaths, narcissists, sadists, etc, to not be abusive.

Mental Health is an entirely different discussion. Nevertheless, a morally informed society would be better equipped to safeguard the population and attempt the rehabilitation of these individuals. Our current state of affairs has allowed these deranged individuals to proliferate and we have no means to help them.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

You make many comments and critiques; however, I have yet to see you present a solution.

I actually did make suggestions in a previous post: believe victims, work on restoring trust in the justice system, and educate people about consent.

 

[Xantippe]

That may very well be the case. However, you don’t go along with abhorrent behavior so you can get what you want because you feel inadequate and then wait until years later to expose it for what it is. : Sexual assault and sexual harassment are two different things. Sexual assault should be reported to the law immediately. Sexual harassment should be reported to authorities immediately and then one should consider suing the offending parties if the issue isn’t resolved. Not stick around to build a career in the industry that is seemingly built around this sort of thing, without doing something is real time to have corrections made. I realize my attitude can be considered by many as victim blaming, but I don’t see it that way. If someone clobbered you over the head in a really bad part of town, but you kept going back, and kept getting clobbered, what would you expect others might think about that? It just defies common sense. Unless, of course, you were getting something in return for the clobber that you thought made it worthwhile. And you realized the clobber was wrong, but liked what you were getting in return, so you decided to look the other way when you got clobbered.

So if a guy had kept going back and getting clobbered over and over again (for whatever reason), he is supposed to keep his mouth shut about it forever and never warn anybody else, you could get clobbered if you go there?

 

[Cruciferi]

How will you inform people’s conscience? You can’t legislate morality. You must change people’s hearts and minds. Your secular solutions will only lead to the abuse becoming more secretive. Nothing of substance will change.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

Your secular solutions will only lead to the abuse becoming more secretive.

Care to explain how?

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

You must change people’s hearts and minds.

Like Catholicism changed the minds of the priests who raped all those kids?

 

[Plmokn]

So if a guy had kept going back and getting clobbered over and over again (for whatever reason), he is supposed to keep his mouth shut about it forever and never warn anybody else, you could get clobbered if you go there

In that case, it wouldn’t make the clobbering less wrong. It is a horrible for any one person to do to another. Clobbering is never OK. However, if the victim kept going back for more clobbering I would have to believe there was more to the story than just some guy getting clobbered everyday as if it was groundhog day. I wouldn’t be getting the whole story, and the whole story matters if you are looking at it from the standpoint of trying to change norms in a society that sort of accepts clobbering as long as it isn’t reported. Again, though, it doesn’t make the clobbering less wrong than it is in and of itself.

So it is never ok to just keep your mouth shut if you are clobbered. You need to speak loud and proud and let people know what happened to you. Hopefully, the clobberer will be removed from where he is doing the clobbering so everyone, including the victim, can then walk down that street and not worry about being clobbered.

 

[Cruciferi]

You’re obviously not interested in serious debate. You appear to have an axe to grind against the Church and your argument’s focus continues to change.

 

[Xantippe]

Correct. But confidence will help them report these things when they happen. The more perps understand this sort of thing will be reported and dealt with, perhaps the less often it will happen.

Eh, but what if the primary response from people like yourself is, “Why are you telling us about it NOW?”

Bear in mind that Harvey Weinstein had extraordinary power and wealth, and was extraordinarily ruthless–he had nearly supervillain type capabilities with regard to being able to retaliate against victims.

Weinstein’s Complicity Machine (Published 2017)

The producer Harvey Weinstein relied on powerful relationships across industries to provide him with cover as accusations of sexual misconduct piled up for decades.

www.nytimes.com

Also, he had very strong media influence, and hence was able to kill stories pretty much at will up until the end.

“Agents and managers across Hollywood, who wanted in on Mr. Weinstein’s star-making films, sent actresses to meet him alone at hotels and advised them to stay quiet when things went wrong. “That’s just Harvey being Harvey,” more than one agent told a client. At C.A.A., for example, at least eight talent agents were told that Mr. Weinstein had harassed or menaced female clients, but agents there continued to arrange private meetings. Even Nick Wechsler, a talent manager at another firm who confronted Mr. Weinstein about Ms. McGowan, felt he had to maintain business ties with him: “Sometimes he was the only game in town.””

“Mr. Weinstein held off press scrutiny with a mix of threats and enticements, drawing reporters close with the lure of access to stars, directors and celebrity-packed parties. Some journalists negotiated book and movie deals with him even as they were assigned to cover him. The studio chief once paid a gossip writer to collect juicy celebrity tidbits that Mr. Weinstein could use to barter if other reporters stumbled onto an affair he was trying to keep quiet. He was so close to David J. Pecker, the chief executive of American Media Inc., which owns The Enquirer, that he was known in the tabloid industry as an untouchable “F.O.P.,” or “friend of Pecker.” That status was shared by a chosen few, including President Trump.”

Up until the end, it looked as if Weinstein might survive the scandal. He obviously thought he would. Remember that weird apology letter where he was promising to go after the NRA if spared?

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

You’re obviously not interested in serious debate. You appear to have an axe to grind against the Church and your argument’s focus continues to wildly change.

I don’t have an ax to grind against the Church: I’m Catholic myself. I don’t think you can simply blame society’s ills on it’s lack of Catholicism. Catholics can and have done terrible things, as has the Church several times in her history. Force-feeding people Catholic doctrine doesn’t mean it’ll take hold. Issues like these are still present in majority-Catholic countries, so it’s not like religion is a successful preventative force.

 

[Cruciferi]

Punishment Doesn't Work

Punishment produces politeness, not morality.

www.psychologytoday.com

 

[Xantippe]

The more perps understand this sort of thing will be reported and dealt with, perhaps the less often it will happen.

Really? Wouldn’t it be a he said/she said, as we’ve heard so many times on CAF?

We hear:

1. Report immediately!

and (simultaneously)

1. He said/she said

It’s only when you get multiple accusations directed at the same person (as in Me Too) that you realize that you’re dealing with a he said/she said/she said/she said/she said/she said type situation.

 

[Plmokn]

end.

“Agents and managers across Hollywood, who wanted in on Mr. Weinstein’s star-making films, sent actresses to meet him alone at hotels and advised them to stay quiet when things went wrong. “That’s just Harvey being Harvey,” more than one agent told a client. At C.A.A., for example, at least eight talent agents were told that Mr. Weinstein had harassed or menaced female clients, but agents there continued to arrange private meetings. Even Nick Wechsler, a talent manager at another firm who confronted Mr. Weinstein about Ms. McGowan, felt he had to maintain business ties with him: “Sometimes he was the only game in town.””

“Mr. Weinstein held off press scrutiny with a mix of threats and enticements, drawing reporters close with the lure of access to stars, directors and celebrity-packed parties. Some journalists negotiated book and movie deals with him even as they were assigned to cover him. The studio chief once paid a gossip writer to collect juicy celebrity tidbits that Mr. Weinstein could use to barter if other reporters stumbled onto an affair he was trying to keep quiet. He was so close to David J. Pecker, the chief executive of American Media Inc., which owns The Enquirer, that he was known in the tabloid industry as an untouchable “F.O.P.,” or “friend of Pecker.” That status was shared by a chosen few, including President Trump.”

Up until the end, it looked as if Weinstein might survive the scandal. He obviously thought he would. Remember that weird apology letter where he was promising to go after the NRA if spared?

Personally, my opinion is “one and done”. Some guy pulls a stunt like his on me once, and it was his last (when I was younger, of course; as an older female I don’t have this problem so much any longer). There are ways of dealing with these types so they will move on to the next one. We should be helping each other to make sure there isn’t a “next one”. Men will stop behaving this way if they stop getting the power from it they are so cowardly seeking.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

Show me where it says Catholicism is the cure.

 

[Xantippe]

You’re obviously not interested in serious debate. You appear to have an axe to grind against the Church and your argument’s focus continues to change.

That is one of the obvious counterexamples–traditional culture is not well-equipped to deal with sexual abuse.