Hell exists BECAUSE God loves us!

[mgoforth]

I get a little tired of this vague blancmange of a theology which says, “No, God doesn’t send you to hell; you send yourself to hell.”
This virtually takes God out of the equation. I might as easily say, “God won’t take me to heaven; I’ll get to heaven by choosing it.” Surely, logically, if the theology applies for hell, it must for heaven, also.
Does God do anything, then? “God doesn’t redeem me; I redeem myself.” Applying the same logic, this statement is completely valid.

I’m 44, and I believe it’s within my lifetime that the church has dramatically shifted its attitude on the teaching of heaven, hell and purgatory. You hear almost nothing about purgatory these days, as if it has vanished from the radar of church teachings. You never hear about hell anymore, either, unless it’s in the context of “a place where there is no god” (I was taught this as a child). Living in rural Australia and teaching in a Catholic high school, I can honestly attest that the concept of sin is no longer given any prominence. It’s all about “good and bad choices” now. Everything is watered down and sanitized to avoid giving any offence to people and to avoid any controversy at all.

I don’t believe it. I believe in a God who actively sends people to hell or takes them to heaven. Why? Because I believe in divine justice, not a bunch of postmodern, touchy-feely platitudes.

Nothing was meant to be “touchy-feely” I can assure you. I must point out an error that you’re making, friend. You’re giving all the glory to one aspect of God - His infinite justice - and ignoring the other aspect in question - His infinite mercy. It’s not a question of either/or…as with many things in Catholicism, it’s both/and. One way of looking at what happens to us after death is that God sends us there. You’re correct, He does indeed send us there to fulfill the requirements of divine justice. But, He also allows us to send ourselves there as I said in the first post. He allows us a free choice and respects it as a result of His divine love and mercy.

You may say that what I’ve stated is a contradiction. It would be more accurate to call it a “mystery”, something that we can’t fully comprehend in totality, only in bits and pieces. It’s the same thing as the Trinity. Is God three persons or one God. He’s both of course, even though our finite intelligence can never fully hold those two conflicting ideas at the same time in this life.

Thank you for the reply.

 

[mgoforth]

If hell was always just an absence of God, why wasn’t Dante tried for heresy for the inferno?

Hell is not just an absence of God, but that is the principle torment of Hell. There is also physical torment and other related tortures…but those are all merely the results of God’s absence.

 

[atheistgirl]

So you don’t think God is all loving?

Nope.

Apart from the discussions I’ve had here about hell and eternal punishment for a finite crime as you described it, I’ve also brough up issues like Madelaine McCann, missing for years, family in unimaginable agony, prayed for by Catholics everywhere, vigils offered for her safe return on a daily basis, prayed for by the Pope (JPII) and … nothing. The family’s pain continues unabated and Madelaine remains missing. No loving all powerful all knowing personal Deity would ever allow such suffering to continue, in my opinion. Others obviously disagree and question my hubris and ask if I know more than God Irrelevant to me in the face of the real pain and suffering of this family. The perps free will was not interfered with - the child was abducted - so I don’t see the block to an all loving God now revealing where the child is, to end the families suffering. But no … nothing. That’s just one example of many that convince me if there is a God, He’s certainly not an all loving one.

I can’t wrap my head around how anyone thinks that eternal torture is a just punishment for a finite crime on earth…a finite crime that was caused by ignorance of the truth.

Agreed. Although, I wouldn’t argue I’m ignorant now of the claims of the Catholic Church, or the claims of Christianity or Islam in general - I would argue though I find myself unable to accept them.

Sarah x

 

[mgoforth]

But is a God that sends people to hell all loving? I say no. I believe in free will but free will only goes so far. You are a product of your mind and your upbringing and neither of which you have any control over. If there is a final judgment, then it is obvious that some people have a leg up on others. Some people are born into loving families who teach them proper morality and have the brain processes to live up to that morality. Other people are born into broken homes where they are taught selfishness and improper morals and might have a certain brain chemistry that makes complements this immorality. So does God judge us all the same? If anything, you can blame God for that person being bad because GOD put them in that situation that molded them into a bad person.

The whole concept of hell is completely incompatible with a loving God. As an example: if your child was a monster and murdered a bunch of innocent people do you think you would think they deserved eternal torture? I doubt there are very many people that would say yes. Are there any parents that would think their child deserved eternal torture because they had gay sex throughout their lives? I would hope not. But God apparently believes differently? But he is all loving? It doesn’t make any sense.

Please take a moment to actually read Catholic teachings before you try to argue against them. All you’ve done here is set up straw-men. The Catholic Church doesn’t teach those things, so there’s no need to respond to your inventions in detail.

 

[mgoforth]

So you don’t think God is all loving? I can’t wrap my head around how anyone thinks that eternal torture is a just punishment for a finite crime on earth…a finite crime that was caused by ignorance of the truth.

I also like that no one has responded to my other post (something like number 26 or 27).

God can’t send people to hell and be all loving. Please make an argument otherwise.

Here’s the argument: God doesn’t send people to Hell who commit sins out of true ignorance. That’s Catholic teaching…pretty elementary teaching at that.

In order to go to Hell, you must first be taught that something is a serious sin. Then you must commit that sin with the full consent of your will. It doesn’t matter whether you agree that the sin is actually a sin…just that you were clearly taught that it was gravely wrong.

So once again, interestedman, you’ve set up a straw man argument. I challenge you to use sound logic next time. If you’re going to argue against God’s Church and His teachings, then at least present good, thoughtful arguments that aren’t basic logical fallacies.

 

[interestedman]

Nice try, but by hearing the Truth proclaimed loud and clear on these forums, you are aware of it and knowingly reject it. Perhaps God will decide in His infinite mercy that you rejected it through no fault of your own…or perhaps God will decide in His infinite justice that you had plenty of opportunities to abandon your pride and stop worshiping your rational mind (human rationality is pitiful and of no comparison to God’s wisdom), and He may send you to Hell.

I will pray that you repent sincerely and stop trying to find loopholes. If I saw one of my 3 children doing that, I would punish them to help them understand how silly they’re behaving and that no good will come from it.

Peace to you, interestedman.

So what happens if you die and say “Sorry, you heard the Truth of Islam loud and clear and rejected it.” Maybe Allah in his infinite mercy will decide that you have rejected Him through no fault of your own. Maybe he will send you to hell.

 

[interestedman]

So your argument boils down to - the proof hell exists is because we have free will



Not really

Sarah x

Exactly my thoughts. Just because we have free will does not mean there has to be a hell.

 

[bri89]

I don’t see how God could be loving or just for this. In the New Testament Jesus says hell was meant for “the devil and his angels”, yet we are condemned to it just the same. The Devil and his angels were made perfect, dwelt in paradise and not a world where sin abounds, had seen the face of God, had absolute knowlegde of his existence(they didn’t need faith) and chose mutiny. The human condition is nothing like theirs. We weren’t made in paradise, but we are born into a world of sin and death, God has hidden himself from us, we have only some vague inner sense of morality and divinity that leads us into all sorts of spiritual directions. In a world dominated by sin, we are morally crippled by our own sinful nature, and we are judged like we really had freewill. It’s plain to me that any freewill we have is limited and we are still heavily subject to many of the external forces and conditions that mold and make us, not to mention our own innately sinful nature. Inspite of these massive impediments, we are still sent to hell. That’s pretty darn severe. To severe for me to possibly believe God is love.

 

[mgoforth]

Human beings are animals, so that doesn’t work.

Not in the spiritual sense.

I am an animal

You come from animals, perhaps…but you have been created in the image and likeness of God and therefore are infinitely more valuable.

I am human

Can’t argue with that.

Do you have any animals? Are you saying animals don’t make choices?

I wish, I’m a big dog-lover…but the kids are too young at this point. Animals are not capable of making the kinds of choices we’re talking about here. They make the choices necessary for their immediate survival in this world, but not the choice between eternal life and eternal suffering.

We don’t always have the final say or complete control over the decisions we make.

That’s a cop-out for most people. If you’re not mentally incompetent in some way, then you can ultimately choose between right and wrong.

I love at a level words cannot describe my children, husband and family. My respect for them has a depth that knows no end.

I’ll be darned if they’re free to do whatever the heck they like

Just one of the many things that proves you are not God, Sarah. And no, I don’t mean to imply that you should let them do what they want all the time. You can’t, because you’re not able to perfectly use evil for a greater good as God is able to do.

Evidence please?

There are records of this occurring, some in Scripture, others in more recent times. I’ll get back to you with a few references.

I have so many things I can bring in here that to me shows anything but love and humility on the part of God.

I’m afraid all it shows is misunderstand on your part. God loves you enough to give you extra time to decide to embrace faith, instead of allowing a bus to hit you today and possibly sending your soul to Hell.

So your argument boils down to - the proof hell exists is because we have free will

Yes, in part. True free will + the existence of God, a God who is just and never lies = the absolute logical necessity of Hell.

 

[interestedman]

Nope.

Apart from the discussions I’ve had here about hell and eternal punishment for a finite crime as you described it, I’ve also brough up issues like Madelaine McCann, missing for years, family in unimaginable agony, prayed for by Catholics everywhere, vigils offered for her safe return on a daily basis, prayed for by the Pope (JPII) and … nothing. The family’s pain continues unabated and Madelaine remains missing. No loving all powerful all knowing personal Deity would ever allow such suffering to continue, in my opinion. Others obviously disagree and question my hubris and ask if I know more than God Irrelevant to me in the face of the real pain and suffering of this family. The perps free will was not interfered with - the child was abducted - so I don’t see the block to an all loving God now revealing where the child is, to end the families suffering. But no … nothing. That’s just one example of many that convince me if there is a God, He’s certainly not an all loving one.

Agreed. Although, I wouldn’t argue I’m ignorant now of the claims of the Catholic Church, or the claims of Christianity or Islam in general - I would argue though I find myself unable to accept them.

Sarah x

I didn’t mean ignorant of the Catholic Church, I meant ignorant of the “Truth.” In my opinion if God exists than there is a rhyme and reason for EVERYTHING. Why is there suffering? There is a logical and loving answer. Why did this happen, or that happen, or why are things the way they are? There is a reason, and a good one, that we possibly can’t understand in this lifetime but would understand once we die and God imparts us with this knowledge. So we would be ignorant of that, not what the church is teaching.

 

[interestedman]

Please take a moment to actually read Catholic teachings before you try to argue against them. All you’ve done here is set up straw-men. The Catholic Church doesn’t teach those things, so there’s no need to respond to your inventions in detail.

Where is the straw man? What doesn’t the church teach?

 

[interestedman]

Here’s the argument: God doesn’t send people to Hell who commit sins out of true ignorance. That’s Catholic teaching…pretty elementary teaching at that.

In order to go to Hell, you must first be taught that something is a serious sin. Then you must commit that sin with the full consent of your will. It doesn’t matter whether you agree that the sin is actually a sin…just that you were clearly taught that it was gravely wrong.

So once again, interestedman, you’ve set up a straw man argument. I challenge you to use sound logic next time. If you’re going to argue against God’s Church and His teachings, then at least present good, thoughtful arguments that aren’t basic logical fallacies.

As I explained in a post above, when I say “ignorance” I don’t mean ignorance of church teaching. I mean ignorance of why things the way they are, why there is suffering, how God can let so much bad happen when he is all loving. That is what we are ignorant of. And if we knew that then our actions would likely be completely different.

 

[mgoforth]

Nope.

Apart from the discussions I’ve had here about hell and eternal punishment for a finite crime as you described it, I’ve also brough up issues like Madelaine McCann, missing for years, family in unimaginable agony, prayed for by Catholics everywhere, vigils offered for her safe return on a daily basis, prayed for by the Pope (JPII) and … nothing. The family’s pain continues unabated and Madelaine remains missing. No loving all powerful all knowing personal Deity would ever allow such suffering to continue, in my opinion. Others obviously disagree and question my hubris and ask if I know more than God Irrelevant to me in the face of the real pain and suffering of this family. The perps free will was not interfered with - the child was abducted - so I don’t see the block to an all loving God now revealing where the child is, to end the families suffering. But no … nothing. That’s just one example of many that convince me if there is a God, He’s certainly not an all loving one.

The problem is that you see this world as all there is. If that were true, you would be absolutely correct. Since it’s false, then the little girl may in fact be in eternal paradise right now, and the “perp” may be headed to Hell if he or she doesn’t repent. Or the perp may repent and be saved as well…that in my opinion would be another amazing example of God’s love. He could have struck that man or woman dead for the guilt of harming a little child and humans would say it was quite just. God loves even that poor lost soul who committed a terrible crime, and may be giving them more time to realize and turn back to Him.

Really, you’re just not being patient. God’s infinite love is still in progress, and you won’t see the results until you die.

Agreed. Although, I wouldn’t argue I’m ignorant now of the claims of the Catholic Church, or the claims of Christianity or Islam in general - I would argue though I find myself unable to accept them.

At least that’s an honest answer.

Sarah x

 

[mgoforth]

So what happens if you die and say “Sorry, you heard the Truth of Islam loud and clear and rejected it.” Maybe Allah in his infinite mercy will decide that you have rejected Him through no fault of your own. Maybe he will send you to hell.

Doesn’t matter. Islam is a contradiction and cannot be true.

 

[mgoforth]

I don’t see how God could be loving or just for this. In the New Testament Jesus says hell was meant for “the devil and his angels”, yet we are condemned to it just the same. The Devil and his angels were made perfect, dwelt in paradise and not a world where sin abounds, had seen the face of God, had absolute knowlegde of his existence(they didn’t need faith) and chose mutiny. The human condition is nothing like theirs. We weren’t made in paradise, but we are born into a world of sin and death, God has hidden himself from us, we have only some vague inner sense of morality and divinity that leads us into all sorts of spiritual directions. In a world dominated by sin, we are morally crippled by our own sinful nature, and we are judged like we really had freewill. It’s plain to me that any freewill we have is limited and we are still subject to many of the external forces and conditions that mold and make us, not to mention our own innately sinful nature. Inspite of these massive impediments, we are still sent to hell. That’s pretty darn severe. To severe for me to possibly believe God is love.

Well, that’s not exactly the correct understanding of what happened with Satan and the rest of the fallen angels. They were not made “perfect” for only God is perfect. They are of a higher order than us, but infinitely lower than God.

Please consider this detailed explanation from St Thomas Aquinas:

Without doubt the devil sinned by seeking to be as God. But this can be understood in two ways: first, by equality; secondly, by likeness. He could not seek to be as God in the first way; because by natural knowledge he knew that this was impossible: and there was no habit preceding his first sinful act, nor any passion fettering his mind, so as to lead him to choose what was impossible by failing in some particular; as sometimes happens in ourselves. And even supposing it were possible, it would be against the natural desire; because there exists in everything the natural desire of preserving its own nature; which would not be preserved were it to be changed into another nature.

Consequently, no creature of a lower order can ever covet the grade of a higher nature; just as an *** does not desire to be a horse: for were it to be so upraised, it would cease to be itself. But herein the imagination plays us false; for one is liable to think that, because a man seeks to occupy a higher grade as to accidentals, which can increase without the destruction of the subject, he can also seek a higher grade of nature, to which he could not attain without ceasing to exist. Now it is quite evident that God surpasses the angels, not merely in accidentals, but also in degree of nature; and one angel, another. Consequently it is impossible for one angel of lower degree to desire equality with a higher; and still more to covet equality with God.

To desire to be as God according to likeness can happen in two ways. In one way, as to that likeness whereby everything is made to be likened unto God. And so, if anyone desire in this way to be Godlike, he commits no sin; provided that he desires such likeness in proper order, that is to say, that he may obtain it of God. But he would sin were he to desire to be like unto God even in the right way, as of his own, and not of God’s power. In another way one may desire to be like unto God in some respect which is not natural to one; as if one were to desire to create heaven and earth, which is proper to God; in which desire there would be sin. It was in this way that the devil desired to be as God. Not that he desired to resemble God by being subject to no one else absolutely; for so he would be desiring his own ‘not-being’; since no creature can exist except by holding its existence under God. But he desired resemblance with God in this respect—by desiring, as his last end of beatitude, something which he could attain by the virtue of his own nature, turning his appetite away from supernatural beatitude, which is attained by God’s grace. Or, if he desired as his last end that likeness of God which is bestowed by grace, he sought to have it by the power of his own nature; and not from Divine assistance according to God’s ordering. This harmonizes with Anselm’s opinion, who says *De casu diaboli, iv.] that “he sought that to which he would have come had he stood fast.” These two views in a manner coincide; because according to both, he sought to have final beatitude of his own power, whereas this is proper to God alone.

Since, then, what exists of itself is the cause of what exists of another, it follows from this furthermore that he sought to have dominion over others; wherein he also perversely wished to be like unto God.

 

[mgoforth]

I didn’t mean ignorant of the Catholic Church, I meant ignorant of the “Truth.” In my opinion if God exists than there is a rhyme and reason for EVERYTHING. Why is there suffering? There is a logical and loving answer. Why did this happen, or that happen, or why are things the way they are? There is a reason, and a good one, that we possibly can’t understand in this lifetime but would understand once we die and God imparts us with this knowledge. So we would be ignorant of that, not what the church is teaching.

God has given you all that you need to understand through His Church. Again, I would have to say that your answer betrays your pride. What business is it of yours how God chooses to run His universe? He explains to us why there is suffering in general, but not necessarily why there is suffering in a particular instance. It’s part of faith, interestedman. God wants us to trust Him, but how can we do that if He also has to give us an explanation for every little detail that doesn’t seem quite correct to our infinitely lower, human level of understanding?

 

[mgoforth]

Where is the straw man? What doesn’t the church teach?

I’ll show you:

If there is a final judgment, then it is obvious that some people have a leg up on others. Some people are born into loving families who teach them proper morality and have the brain processes to live up to that morality. Other people are born into broken homes where they are taught selfishness and improper morals and might have a certain brain chemistry that makes complements this immorality. So does God judge us all the same? If anything, you can blame God for that person being bad because GOD put them in that situation that molded them into a bad person.

Well to answer your question: no, God does not judge us all “the same” in the sense of ignoring our situations. This is a clear teaching of the Church in the Catechism:

1860 *Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest. *

So that’s a straw man argument. All you have to do to prevent yourself from posting logical fallacies like this one is to learn about what you’re trying to attack.

 

[mgoforth]

As I explained in a post above, when I say “ignorance” I don’t mean ignorance of church teaching. I mean ignorance of why things the way they are, why there is suffering, how God can let so much bad happen when he is all loving. That is what we are ignorant of. And if we knew that then our actions would likely be completely different.

And as I explained above, who exactly do you think that you are to demand to know everything? Your conception of God must not be very impressive if you don’t see the silliness in such a request. He is infinite. You and I are finite. That’s the key to understanding this. His knowledge literally will not fit inside our tiny little brains. It won’t fit inside the minds of angels who are the highest level of created beings. It won’t fit anywhere else but inside Him, because everywhere else is finite and He is, once again, in-finite.

Let me give you an example: suppose you got shot by a mugger and then later that same day, a baby was saved from drowning. In this example, those two events are linked. God did not cause the mugger to shoot you, but He used that unfortunate event to save the baby’s life. How did He do it?? Through a series of causes and effects so long, so complicated, so intertwined and subtle that it would take us 100 lifetimes of studying and a library full of books to document and even propose a concrete theory.

Or maybe the mugger simply felt terrible for what he did to you and then saved a baby he saw drowning…

Who knows? It’s not our place to know. Find some humility and let God do His job.

 

[interestedman]

Doesn’t matter. Islam is a contradiction and cannot be true.

lol, ok. I guess that solves that problem.

 

[interestedman]

God has given you all that you need to understand through His Church. Again, I would have to say that your answer betrays your pride. What business is it of yours how God chooses to run His universe? He explains to us why there is suffering in general, but not necessarily why there is suffering in a particular instance. It’s part of faith, interestedman. God wants us to trust Him, but how can we do that if He also has to give us an explanation for every little detail that doesn’t seem quite correct to our infinitely lower, human level of understanding?

You act as though I don’t believe in the Church because of pride. I don’t believe in the Church because I view it as a 2,000 year old religion that was mostly spread by people that had never met Jesus and could not verify the claims that they were spreading.