Hello. I am seeking some advice on marriage issues

[floresco]

qui est ce,
I think the tone of my last post was a bit abrupt. Nothing personal, I was in a rush. If I had more time I would have responded to your personal situation. You sound like you have faced many difficulties.

 

[qui_est_ce]

qui est ce,
I think the tone of my last post was a bit abrupt. Nothing personal, I was in a rush. If I had more time I would have responded to your personal situation. You sound like you have faced many difficulties.

Mark, I don’t expect you to respond to my personal situation. I used my personal experience to validate my advice. As in been there, done that. That was wrong. Each situation is unique.

You said what needed to be said. We don’t know all that facts, and should give her principles, not advice. I was responding to her plea for advice. You are correct, this isn’t really a good place for advice. We are really giving our opinions based on personal situations.

This thread has me revisiting all I went through. I’m glad I left ex. I wish I didn’t have to. Easily said after 13 years. At the time, it was hard and scary. There was a lot of hurt, betrayal, and anger on my part.

Seeing how ex is today, though, just reinforces I did the right thing. He’s still all about himself, and is still violent. I know I should care about his soul, but I can’t, it’s like wasting prayer. He is possessed. He sold his soul to the Devil. I don’t think Mark is there yet, because Mark is able to step into a Bible study without going into a frenzy. Yes, as long as there is life, there is hope for repentance.

At the time, I was more worried about my children’s souls, and being around him wasn’t wasn’t the way.

 

[Ailina]

Certainly Mark ought to stop contacting the stripper and he must not lie to her. But Corinne has more to think about than demanding that he earn her trust. If she wants to do the right thing, then she must think about his salvation. What can she do to encourage Mark to come closer to God? How can she help Mark to fight against the sin that entangles him? And if this means more pain for her, Jesus will be with her sharing that pain, holding her close.

Floresco,

There is a saying I’ve learned to recite when my marriage broke down: Let go and let God. By that I mean: sometimes there is nothing more we can do for our husbands than let go of a terrible marriage. We can and should continue to pray for them, but also need to realize that there is nothing more we can do for them within the marriage itself. Jesus does not expect us to put up with unending emotional abuse and trauma, or so I would hope. That is the lesson I learned in my marriage after sticking it out far too long.

Corinne has every right to demand that her husband work on rebuilding her trust. It was he who broke it, and so he must be the one to repair it. She cannot blindly trust him because HE was taught her NOT to.

I think you are transferring your own situation into that of Corinne’s husband’s. Have you apologized to your wife? Are you making amends by not continuing to sneak around and lie? If so, then what do you have to fear? I presume you have already confessed, so you have a clean slate with God too. However, you have to realize that your wife has been deeply hurt and needs to work through the emotions she is feeling. Things are never the same in a marriage after betrayal; however, just because it becomes different doesn’t mean it won’t be good again some day.

I think your wife is lucky because you have realized you made some mistakes, and that you are trying to rectify the situation. I hope she sees that too. I wish my ex had, but he is still living a life that could cause terrible damage to our children. I pray for him every day.

 

[floresco]

There is a saying I’ve learned to recite when my marriage broke down: Let go and let God. By that I mean: sometimes there is nothing more we can do for our husbands than let go of a terrible marriage. We can and should continue to pray for them, but also need to realize that there is nothing more we can do for them within the marriage itself. Jesus does not expect us to put up with unending emotional abuse and trauma, or so I would hope. That is the lesson I learned in my marriage after sticking it out far too long.

Corinne and Mark, working with professional counsellors came up with the plan for him to return to the family home. I think it is likely that these counsellors know more about Mark and Corinne’s situation than any of the forum posters here. It is also pretty likely that they are better at assessing the state of marriages, since that is their job.

These people are not telling Corinne that her marriage is so terrible that she should give up on it. These people are not telling her that he should not live in the same house as her. There is no reason to think that the lesson you learned in your marriage applies to Corinne.

Corinne does not need any of us projecting our personal situations onto hers and basing advice on what happened to us. (I have tried to avoid doing that.) She has a professional counsellor, who knows far more than we do about the situation, to give her advice. She needs emotional support from us and she needs our prayers. And I have tried to give her hope by telling her that my marriage survived infidelity.

 

[floresco]

I just wanted to note that I write my posts without specifying if I am male or female and always phrase things so it could have been written by either. So if anyone has assumed one or the other, it is just that - an assumption. I suspect that many of the things we think we know about Corinne and Mark are also assumptions.

 

[whatevergirl]

defenderoftruth;6680369:

Enabling Corinne would be giving in to him moving home with very little effort if any on his part.

FYI, he is already home…as I mentioned as of 2 months ago.

Perhaps I did the wrong thing in letting him move home the first time, until he really changed his ways. But I did. Can’t change the past, anyway can we? only move forward from here.

It is slightly different in my case, because I really have no proof he’s changed, unlike the drunk who you know when he hasn’t been drinking…with infidelity, you really have no proof, you just have to go by your instinct, your intuition, your overall general feeling of trustworthiness, how repentent and kind they seem, and what they are willing to DO to make it up.

I do think, just him going to the Bible Study is a good thing. My counselor told me this too. Being there, he is hearing the word, and the seeds, however small are being planted. Some seeds fall on rocky soil, some die after they fall, like it says in Scripture.

So…at this point, just doing what I feel is best.

If I have any more concrete evidence of further contact with this person, I’ll have to cross that bridge when I get to it.

Thanks for all the well wishes, prayers, etc.

*Corrine, I want to say, I have followed your story here…off and on. I see your husband is home again. In my heart, I never agreed with your decision to let him move back in…but that is me. I am not in your shoes. But, I’m not really here posting to say that, per se. Moreso, I wanted to just say…that I find you to be quite a strong and holy woman. I sit here humbly learning from you…really. I commend your tenacity with your marriage. I don’t know if I could do the same, but only you know your situation. None of us here really know it…only the snippits you share. But, please don’t let yourself get lost…you matter…and I really pray your husband becomes a changed man for you…because truly? You deserve nothing less. I just wanted to say that…I have been meaning to, and found time late tonight, to pop on here and reply. Your husband is blessed to have you, lady!

:hug1:*

 

[Corinne3]

Once again, I typed a long message, and then it disappeared saying I wasn’t logged in. Shucks.

Thank you all again just so much for your understanding and concern. I have very few friends in my life, so this place means so much.

My husband treated me very unkindly tonight again, (mimicking me in this nasty tone of voice) feeling like a knife in the heart, (total disrespect) then after we said a few words, sped off in his car, and is gone still as I type this. I told him how I feel that our marriage is essentially “over”, his unkindness, I cannot bear any longer, that I feel I am walking on egg shells around him, not knowing how he’s going to act any given day, what he’s going to do or not do, if he’ll lie or deceive me again…etc. and that I feel drained.

Just thinking of everything he’s done to me in the past 2 years is too much for me to bear. SO much deceit, it’s unreal. Is that love? Is that cherishing your beloved spouse? NO. Secret cell phones, secret rendevous, lies, and more lies, not to mention nude lap dances with one particular stripper and dates, etc… That is not love. That is totally stepping out on your wife.

I feel no love from my husband, friends. And I don’t even think I like him, or love him any longer, or respect him one iota. I am a wounded bird with one broken wing, trying to fly again alone and not knowing how to, how to even get up. I just have to trust God.

You were right defending the truth, my h did leave me 2 or more years ago, even before he moved out. I never felt truly cherished by my husband ever, no affection in any real way, no hand holding, putting his arm around me, calling me honey or sweetheart, never ever. And our whole entire marriage he’s oagled other women everywhere we go. This has always killed me, then this, the affair…I just cannot take it anymore. I really wish I had never let my h move back in 2 years ago…now what do I do?

Do you divorce your spouse if you feel, think, or even KNOW in your gut they don’t love you?

Should we discuss this? or continue on as distant strangers in the same home waiting for the inevitable? Should he sleep on the couch? I feel like I do not even want him in my bed anymore. I feel almost on the verge of hate towards him.

Floresco: I hear what you say. Care about his salvation. I do. But in a more distant way than before. I have to let him go, and care about him from afar this time around. I need to take care of me, and my kids, now teens, and nearly all over 18. So they’ll soon be out on their own. Do we talk about staying put until kids are out, then split up? How does anyone suggest I handle this?\

 

[Corinne3]

Would this be wrong of me to tell him I never want to have sex with him ever again as long as I live?

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Corinne,

as a child of divorced parents, I can tell you this: good cheer and laughter returned to our home AFTER my parents divorced, and my father was finally gone. What’s different from your case, I was only 5 when the trouble between my parents got really bad, and my father was finally gone when I was 8. As a child, I acutely sensed my mother’s pain and suffering, and in fact I suffered with her. Believe me, both my sister (2 years older than I) and I were much better off with a mother who was happy again and at peace, than being forced to see our father mistreating our mother, while they were still together. Your children are older, they are teenagers, but I fail to see how that would make a substantial difference.

Are you in a good mood while going about your daily life? Do you smile, do you laugh, do you joke with your children, do they hear you humming a melody or singing a song? When did they see you laughing, and just really relaxed and in a good mood, for the last time? The best you can do for your children is to be happy and grounded, yourself, and you may not be able to achieve that while you are being mistreated by a bad spouse.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

I have had to go back to work full-time in my mid-40s, and probably will never be able to afford to retire. That is the travesty of No-Fault Divorce. So be it. I refuse to bring my children up in a marriage where a man thinks he can go have sex with whomever he pleases and spend his money on whomever it pleases, leaving me to raise the kids alone anyway. If I had kept my mouth shut and stayed, my kids would grow up thinking that is how a husband treats a wife. My sons would think that having sex outside of marriage is perfectly acceptable, that porn is acceptable. My daughter would think a wife’s role is to be a door mat, to be walked all over, to be a sexual object to be consumed and nothing more. I wanted better for my kids than that.

Sometimes, divorce is the only way. Otherwise, life would be an ongoing nightmare, requiring anti-depressants. Life is harder financially, but for peace and clarity of mind, it is so much better. I’m sorry you are going this. It is a very hard road to be on. You will be in my prayers.

That’s what I’m talking about.

 

[MtnDwellar]

Corrine, it sounds like your husband’s lower faculties are basically out of control. His desire for immediate gratification is driving him to seek pleasures from strippers. He avoids doing that which is arduous, but brings long term happiness, and instead takes the immediate pleasure of a lap dance. I will guess that you can see this type of pattern in other aspects of his life. Lust is a captial vice. It has many daughters. Generally the daughters manifest in forms of sloth and gluttony. Another daughter is a disordered love of self and an inability to love others. Also, people tend to focus too much on the material world and forget about spirituality. A hatred of God can result, because a person feels guilty about their actions. These vices and others are a direct result of lust.

Lust is defined by St. Thomas as an inordinate desire for venereal pleasure. It has a huge effect on all areas of a man’s life. It can be overcome. It takes a great amount of effort.

I love to see people stay together. There is a big difference in your attitude between your last post and the previous post. It seems that you are being taken on a roller coaster ride. That is fairly typical. Even for a man who is digently trying to change, the changes come slowly and not without setbacks. I cannot advise. Some people stay together and even after years of trouble end up with a marriage which is very strong. Others think the chance of recovery is small and it is better to cut losses.

Although your decisions at this time seem crucial, they are not as big as they seem. With God, you will be happy either way.

 

[floresco]

Corinne,
Sometimes when you get logged out while posting you can log back in and back screen to your message.

It sounds like you just had a fight with your husband, but there were no new incidents of infidelity. Married couples get upset with each other at times. If you are going to bring up his past sins every time you are angry with him, Mark has no incentive to try to do any better in the future. You are keeping him in the place of the “bad husband” and won’t let him out.

To all you posters counselling divorce: This is inappropriate on a Catholic forum. The Church has a very clear teaching on this. Divorce is never allowed. If you are so willing to ignore the Church teaching on divorce, why do you condemn Mark for disobeying the teaching on adultery? These laws come from the same source.

The Church allows for couples to separate under some circumstances, for example, in situations involving abuse. But the couple remains married and may never remarry.

As for refusing to have sex with one’s spouse, the Bible addresses this in I Corinthians 7

3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife’s body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband’s body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

This has been the teaching of the Church since St. Paul wrote it and it has not been changed.

 

[Ailina]

Corinne,
Sometimes when you get logged out while posting you can log back in and back screen to your message.

It sounds like you just had a fight with your husband, but there were no new incidents of infidelity. Married couples get upset with each other at times. If you are going to bring up his past sins every time you are angry with him, Mark has no incentive to try to do any better in the future. You are keeping him in the place of the “bad husband” and won’t let him out.

To all you posters counselling divorce: This is inappropriate on a Catholic forum. The Church has a very clear teaching on this. Divorce is never allowed. If you are so willing to ignore the Church teaching on divorce, why do you condemn Mark for disobeying the teaching on adultery? These laws come from the same source.

The Church allows for couples to separate under some circumstances, for example, in situations involving abuse. But the couple remains married and may never remarry.

As for refusing to have sex with one’s spouse, the Bible addresses this in I Corinthians 7

This has been the teaching of the Church since St. Paul wrote it and it has not been changed.

I’m calling you on that last quote, Floresco. Some STDs get passed thru skin-to-skin contact. HPV, for example, which can lead to cervical cancer. My unfaithful ex gave me an STD which I have to live with for the rest of my life. Bollocks to your advice about having sex with an unfaithful husband, especially since diseases like HPV are usually not tested in men. Corinne’s husband may not be entirely clean in his confessions to her; he may have had sex with the stripper. Men who lie to their wives often don’t tell the full truth, as I found out. Corinne can put her health in danger by being so submissive as to have sex with him.

I came here looking for marital advice too, because I was under the impression that divorce was absolutely forbidden. However, it is sometimes, it is necessary, to keep the wife and children safe from harm. If a husband continues to break his vows, he is the one who has broken the marriage. Actions speak louder than words. Mark was cruel to his wife in his words and actions and then took off. Again. He doesn’t sound repentent and conciliatory to me. Remember, he has denied that lap dances are acts of unfaithfulness.

 

[floresco]

I’m calling you on that last quote, Floresco. Some STDs get passed thru skin-to-skin contact. HPV, for example, which can lead to cervical cancer. My unfaithful ex gave me an STD which I have to live with for the rest of my life. Bollocks to your advice about having sex with an unfaithful husband, especially since diseases like HPV are usually not tested in men. Corinne’s husband may not be entirely clean in his confessions to her; he may have had sex with the stripper. Men who lie to their wives often don’t tell the full truth, as I found out. Corinne can put her health in danger by being so submissive as to have sex with him.

Corinne says that she called the stripper and questioned her and came to the conclusion that STDs were not a risk in this case. Corinne was not asking about having sex with one’s spouse if it endangers one’s health. (Which, according to Church teaching, one is not required to do.) She wanted to know if it would be wrong to tell her husband that she would never have sex with him again. The answer is that yes it would be wrong.

That is not my advice. That is what the Church teaches.

I came here looking for marital advice too, because I was under the impression that divorce was absolutely forbidden. However, it is sometimes, it is necessary, to keep the wife and children safe from harm. If a husband continues to break his vows, he is the one who has broken the marriage. Actions speak louder than words. Mark was cruel to his wife in his words and actions and then took off. Again. He doesn’t sound repentent and conciliatory to me. Remember, he has denied that lap dances are acts of unfaithfulness.

The Church allows for civil divorce if it is necessary for legal protection but does not recognize that divorce. The couple is still married in the eyes of the Church and they may not remarry. (Since physical abuse does not seem to be an issue in this case, it does not seem likely to apply.)

Corinne and Mark had a fight. We heard her side of it and not much about what she said to him. Presumably it bothered him enough for him to storm off in the car. Even couples without infidelity in their past have fights and sometimes one or the other spouse goes off in a huff.

Just because Mark is at fault for the infidelity does not mean that he is going to at fault for every fight they have for the rest of their lives.

 

[cordula]

Dear Corinne,

              May God bless you and thank you for sharing this. Try praising God for your circumstances God has permitted this for some reason. Praise releases gods grace into the situation. Just keep on praiing God and thanking him for this situation. God wants to say something to you through this. He wants you to develop in your relationship with him through this. Offer it up to God he will give you the Grace that you need. Spend time before the blessed sacrament.

                                      God bless.
                               With you in Jesus.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

I’m calling you on that last quote, Floresco. Some STDs get passed thru skin-to-skin contact. HPV, for example, which can lead to cervical cancer. My unfaithful ex gave me an STD which I have to live with for the rest of my life. Bollocks to your advice about having sex with an unfaithful husband, especially since diseases like HPV are usually not tested in men. Corinne’s husband may not be entirely clean in his confessions to her; he may have had sex with the stripper. Men who lie to their wives often don’t tell the full truth, as I found out. Corinne can put her health in danger by being so submissive as to have sex with him.

I also wanted to comment on that. HPV, genital herpes, hepatitis C get transmitted easily through skin contact, even when condoms are used, and also through oral sex. In addition, condoms have an annual failure rate of 31% with respect to transmission of HIV virus, which is worse than their annual failure rate of 14-18% with respect to preventing pregnancies. As a rule of thumb, someone who had a sexual partner and could have been potentially infected with HPV or herpes, can be a virus carrier and able to infect another sexual partner for 2-3 years after the sexual contact, even if he is not showing any symptoms of being infected himself. In other words, Corinne’s husband might have caught some nasty stuff from the prostitute, he might have become a carrier of genital herpes virus or HPV, even if he is totally free of symptoms of an infection. The body is usually able to rid itself of these viruses after a prolonged time period of 2-3 years, but in the meantime, the person is able to infect someone else with the disease. Yet in other cases, the body will never rid itself of the virus, and the person may even develop cancer… Cervical cancer in women, and head and neck carcinoma in men and women who have engaged in oral sex, can develop after exposure to HPV. And I haven’t even mentioned yet HIV/AIDS…

It’s totally irresponsible to tell to an innocent spouse that he or she should play Russian Roulette with his/her life, and expose him/herself to sexual contact with a cheating spouse who frequents the strip clubs! What if Corinne comes down with hepatitis, or gets infected with HPV and later develops cervical cancer??

The cheating spouse should get tested for STDs, but I’m not even sure that herpes and HPV can be reliably detected in people who are symptom-free carriers. In Corinne’s place, I would visit a professional and get tested myself for STDs, in addition to NOT TRUSTING anything my spouse said to me!

 

[floresco]

The cheating spouse should get tested for STDs, but I’m not even sure that herpes and HPV can be reliably detected in people who are symptom-free carriers.

I actually suggested this earlier in the thread but Corinne said that she has investigated and was certain that STDs were not a risk. She is talking about permanently refusing sex with her spouse out of anger, not out of fear of disease. She will be disobeying Church teaching if she does that. She will be guilty of a sin, just like her husband is.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Floresco, there’s ABSOLUTELY NO WAY for Corinne to know. C’mon, how could she know without actually being tested for STDs? She would be a fool to believe what her husband is telling her.

I will just add, Corinne, DO NOT TRUST what your husband or the stripper tell you about their having had or not having had sex, and STDs!

There’s only one source you can trust now: what your doctor tells you, after you get tested for STDs yourself!

 

[Ailina]

Corinne says that she called the stripper and questioned her and came to the conclusion that STDs were not a risk in this case. Corinne was not asking about having sex with one’s spouse if it endangers one’s health. (Which, according to Church teaching, one is not required to do.) She wanted to know if it would be wrong to tell her husband that she would never have sex with him again. The answer is that yes it would be wrong.

(Since physical abuse does not seem to be an issue in this case, it does not seem likely to apply.)
/QUOTE]

Why would the stripper tell the truth about touch? She has no concern for Corinne at all, or she wouldn’t be involved with a married man. There was skin-to-skin contact, with him touching the stripper all over her naked body. He lived away from home and saw the stripper frequently. I wonder if they didn’t also have sex outside the club, for money since some strippers are also hookers. Btw, you don’t need to have intercourse to pick up an STD. Men can’t be tested for HPV, which is a very likely infection in this case.

Also, since when is emotional abuse not as serious as physical abuse? It can be just as damaging, maybe more so because it can be more subtle and insidious. Quit excusing this husband’s behavior. He has eroded Corinne’s trust for years, not days, not with just one indiscretion. Calling the stripper, if even for a minute, is breaking the reasonable boundary that Corinne had set up to protect her family. He had the choice not to call, yet he did. Every time he does things like this, he is the one destroying the family.

 

[Ailina]

Once again, I typed a long message, and then it disappeared saying I wasn’t logged in. Shucks.

Hi Corinne,

I think there is a five minute time limit for typing messages here, because the same thing happens to me. However, by immediately logging in again when you get that message (that you aren’t logged in) will save the message and it will be posted automatically.