Hello. I am seeking some advice on marriage issues

[whatevergirl]

Would this be wrong of me to tell him I never want to have sex with him ever again as long as I live?

*I’m so sorry to hear of the update…that your husband is treating you badly. Corrine, your husband has to want to change…otherwise, you will forever live what you’re living. He needs some professional counseling it sounds like. I used to '‘speed off’ when my husband and I would argue, and believe me, I needed some counseling as to what it takes to be a good and loving wife. If he never wants to treat you well, then you have some hard choices to make, because spending a lifetime with someone who treats you badly, to me, is not a marriage. I can’t tell you what to do, but you have my prayers. Just a question, why did you permit him back home, if he really didn’t do much to prove he had changed? Just a question, that’s all.

Praying for you!*

 

[tbcrawford]

Hi dear Corinne I have been thinking about you a lot these past couple of days.Only this morning while running my bath my mind wandered to you.You have inspired me by your courage and strength.You have behaved impeccably.Your faith is wonderful to see as you truly live by your faith in your life.

While we all care for you and the terrible suffering and betrayal by your husband is so hurtful we cannot tell you what to do.

You will know when/if you have had enough and cannot take any more and ask him to leave again.If in the future after living separately things don’t progress in a positive way, then he will have to divorce you, not you divorce him.There is really no need for divorce unless you chat to your priest about grounds for annulment.You may well have good grounds for seeking annulment.None of us know however.It is private and personal to you how you and your husband were prior to marriage and so forth to seek annulment.It is certainly well worth talking to your priest in any case.

You may of course decide to continue as you are and maybe one day things would improve.I know you trust in the Lord and pray I will continue to hold you dear one in my prayers.You are such a lovely wife and you do not deserve this.God bless youxx

Memorare (Prayer to Our Lady)
Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help, or sought your intercession, was left unaided.
Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto you, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother. To you do I come, before you I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in your mercy, hear and answer me. Amen

 

[floresco]

Why would the stripper tell the truth about touch? She has no concern for Corinne at all, or she wouldn’t be involved with a married man. There was skin-to-skin contact, with him touching the stripper all over her naked body. He lived away from home and saw the stripper frequently. I wonder if they didn’t also have sex outside the club, for money since some strippers are also hookers. Btw, you don’t need to have intercourse to pick up an STD. Men can’t be tested for HPV, which is a very likely infection in this case.

Corinne said she wasn’t concerned about this and I was assuming that she knew what she was talking about. She is the one in the situation, after all.

I completely agree that if there is any doubt about this at all that they need medical consultation and testing before resuming sexual relations. But Corinne’s question was about the morality of never having marital relations with her husband again because she is upset with him. And the Catholic Church teaches that husbands and wives do not have the right to do that.

And really it does not seem very fair that Corinne does not even want Mark to look at other women but she refuses to have sex with him herself. She would like him to go for the rest of his life with absolutely no sex. How is he supposed to learn to let go of sinful sexual behaviours if he has not positive sex to replace it with?

Also, since when is emotional abuse not as serious as physical abuse? It can be just as damaging, maybe more so because it can be more subtle and insidious. Quit excusing this husband’s behavior. He has eroded Corinne’s trust for years, not days, not with just one indiscretion. Calling the stripper, if even for a minute, is breaking the reasonable boundary that Corinne had set up to protect her family. He had the choice not to call, yet he did. Every time he does things like this, he is the one destroying the family.

I never said that emotional abuse is not as serious a physical abuse. Also I have never excused Marks behaviour. I have consistently throughout this thread said it was a grave sin.

If Corinne takes a harsh and unforgiving attitude then she contributes to destroying the family too. When we pray the Lord’s Prayer we ask God to forgive us as we forgive others.

 

[Ailina]

Corinne said she wasn’t concerned about this and I was assuming that she knew what she was talking about. She is the one in the situation, after all.

I completely agree that if there is any doubt about this at all that they need medical consultation and testing before resuming sexual relations. But Corinne’s question was about the morality of never having marital relations with her husband again because she is upset with him. And the Catholic Church teaches that husbands and wives do not have the right to do that.

And really it does not seem very fair that Corinne does not even want Mark to look at other women but she refuses to have sex with him herself. She would like him to go for the rest of his life with absolutely no sex. How is he supposed to learn to let go of sinful sexual behaviours if he has not positive sex to replace it with?

I never said that emotional abuse is not as serious a physical abuse. Also I have never excused Marks behaviour. I have consistently throughout this thread said it was a grave sin.

If Corinne takes a harsh and unforgiving attitude then she contributes to destroying the family too. When we pray the Lord’s Prayer we ask God to forgive us as we forgive others.

Corinne is venting. How can she have sex with him when he has exposed himself to people who have no sexual discretion? Remember: he has been out and about and has put her health at risk by doing so. In these days of multiple incurable STDs (Herpes, HPV, HIV), she needs to be careful about her sex life. HE put her in that awkward position, so now she needs to proceed very carefully. Forgiveness doesn’t cure disease.

 

[floresco]

Corinne is venting. How can she have sex with him when he has exposed himself to people who have no sexual discretion? Remember: he has been out and about and has put her health at risk by doing so. In these days of multiple incurable STDs (Herpes, HPV, HIV), she needs to be careful about her sex life. HE put her in that awkward position, so now she needs to proceed very carefully. Forgiveness doesn’t cure disease.

Corinne never once expressed any concern about this issue. This is your issue. You are projecting your experience onto hers and it is not helping her.

Yes Corinne is venting. She is angry at her husband. She is so angry that she is contemplating doing things that are sins. She is writing about getting divorced and about permanently refusing to have sex with her husband. Perhaps she is just blowing off steam and has no real intention of doing these things. However, she has expressed interest in doing what is right and therefore needs to be told what the Church teaches.

 

[monicatholic]

floresco, you are wrong to assert divorce is a sin without mentioning the Church’s allowance in some circumstances. i don’t wish to imply that corrine either meets or desnt meet any criteria, only that there are allowances. additionally, if divcorce is allowed in separations where inheritance and rights are to be protected, how can it be argued that corrine’s right to health should not aloso be upheld-- if not by divorce, then by marital continence?

corrine, talk to a priest about specific allowable ways to protect yourself.

2380 Adultery refers to marital infidelity. When two partners, of whom at least one is married to another party, have sexual relations - even transient ones - they commit adultery. Christ condemns even adultery of mere desire.171 The sixth commandment and the New Testament forbid adultery absolutely.172 The prophets denounce the gravity of adultery; they see it as an image of the sin of idolatry.173

2381 Adultery is an injustice. He who commits adultery fails in his commitment. He does injury to the sign of the covenant which the marriage bond is, transgresses the rights of the other spouse, and undermines the institution of marriage by breaking the contract on which it is based. He compromises the good of human generation and the welfare of children who need their parents’ stable union

2382 The Lord Jesus insisted on the original intention of the Creator who willed that marriage be indissoluble.174 He abrogates the accommodations that had slipped into the old Law.175

Between the baptized, "a ratified and consummated marriage cannot be dissolved by any human power or for any reason other than death."176

2383 The separation of spouses while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law.177

**If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense. **

2384 Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law. It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented, to live with each other till death. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation, of which sacramental marriage is the sign. Contracting a new union, even if it is recognized by civil law, adds to the gravity of the rupture: the remarried spouse is then in a situation of public and permanent adultery:

If a husband, separated from his wife, approaches another woman, he is an adulterer because he makes that woman commit adultery, and the woman who lives with him is an adulteress, because she has drawn another’s husband to herself.178

2385 Divorce is immoral also because it introduces disorder into the family and into society. This disorder brings grave harm to the deserted spouse, to children traumatized by the separation of their parents and often torn between them, and because of its contagious effect which makes it truly a plague on society.

2386 It can happen that one of the spouses is the innocent victim of a divorce decreed by civil law; this spouse therefore has not contravened the moral law.** There is a considerable difference between a spouse who has sincerely tried to be faithful to the sacrament of marriage and is unjustly abandoned, and one who through his own grave fault destroys a canonically valid marriage.179**

 

[floresco]

floresco, you are wrong to assert divorce is a sin without mentioning the Church’s allowance in some circumstances. i don’t wish to imply that corrine either meets or desnt meet any criteria, only that there are allowances. additionally, if divcorce is allowed in separations where inheritance and rights are to be protected, how can it be argued that corrine’s right to health should not aloso be upheld-- if not by divorce, then by marital continence?

I did mention it. In an earlier post I explained that civil divorce could be allowed under some limited circumstances. But this is, in effect, a legal fiction. One is still married in the eyes of the Church. You just quoted the CCC saying that divorce is a grave offense and immoral. That is the Church teaching.

I have said numerous times that there is no more problem with avoiding sex for health reasons but that is irrelevant to what Corinne was saying,

 

[Ailina]

Corinne never once expressed any concern about this issue. This is your issue. You are projecting your experience onto hers and it is not helping her.

Yes Corinne is venting. She is angry at her husband. She is so angry that she is contemplating doing things that are sins. She is writing about getting divorced and about permanently refusing to have sex with her husband. Perhaps she is just blowing off steam and has no real intention of doing these things. However, she has expressed interest in doing what is right and therefore needs to be told what the Church teaches.

I would guess you are also projecting your experience onto hers, by telling her to be more lenient with her wayward husband. After several years, how lenient has she been? She has bent over backwards already to get him to stop his extra-curricular activities.

I am not telling her she needs to divorce him, but that she needs to set a boundary which lets him know when HE has broken the marriage bond. It is already terribly frayed by his continual lying and sneaking around behind her back. These are not minor mistakes he is making. His actions are speaking more than his words are. Words are cheap.

Sometimes submissive wives, who engage in unprotected sex with unfaithful husbands, end up catching something that faithful husbands would never have infected their wives with. That is a fact. Who commits the bigger sin here? Her for protecting her health? Or him for opening himself up to STDs?

Divorce is sometimes warrented, as Monica points out. When Corinne first went to a priest, he told that as well.

 

[monicatholic]

That is the Church teaching.

everything i posted is Church teaching. the CCC selection i posted are all collected together in a subsection of 6th commandment called “divorce.” legal fiction? there is is in the catechism. is that legal fiction? no. That is the Church teaching.

you can cherry pick the catechism, floresco, but i won’t.

 

[floresco]

I would guess you are also projecting your experience onto hers, by telling her to be more lenient with her wayward husband.

I am not telling her to be lenient. I am telling her that she has to consider what will contribute to his salvation. I do not know enough about her situation to tell her to be lenient.

Divorce is sometimes warrented, as Monica points out. When Corinne first went to a priest, he told that as well.

I am not sure that you or Monica understands what the CCC is saying there. It is talking about civil divorce for specific legal situations. The spouses are still married in the eyes of the Church. The priest may have been talking about separation, which is permitted, but the spouses are not free to remarry.

 

[floresco]

everything i posted is Church teaching. the CCC selection i posted are all collected together in a subsection of 6th commandment called “divorce.” legal fiction? there is is in the catechism. is that legal fiction? no. That is the Church teaching.

you can cherry pick the catechism, floresco, but i won’t.

I am not cherry picking. I am telling you what it means. When it says that civil divorce is allowed, it does not mean that the spouses are free to remarry. It is permitted if there is a legal situation that makes it necessary, but the couple is still married as far as the Church is concerned.

What is allowed is separation, if there is a good reason. This is what Canon Law says about separation:

Can. 1151 Spouses have the duty and right to preserve conjugal living unless a legitimate cause excuses them.

Can. 1152 §1. Although it is earnestly recommended that a spouse, moved by Christian charity and concerned for the good of the family, not refuse forgiveness to an adulterous partner and not disrupt conjugal life, nevertheless, if the spouse did not condone the fault of the other expressly or tacitly, the spouse has the right to sever conjugal living unless the spouse consented to the adultery, gave cause for it, or also committed adultery.

§2. Tacit condonation exists if the innocent spouse has had marital relations voluntarily with the other spouse after having become certain of the adultery. It is presumed, moreover, if the spouse observed conjugal living for six months and did not make recourse to the ecclesiastical or civil authority.

§3. If the innocent spouse has severed conjugal living voluntarily, the spouse is to introduce a cause for separation within six months to the competent ecclesiastical authority which, after having investigated all the circumstances, is to consider carefully whether the innocent spouse can be moved to forgive the fault and not to prolong the separation permanently.

Can. 1153 §1. If either of the spouses causes grave mental or physical danger to the other spouse or to the offspring or otherwise renders common life too difficult, that spouse gives the other a legitimate cause for leaving, either by decree of the local ordinary or even on his or her own authority if there is danger in delay.

§2. In all cases, when the cause for the separation ceases, conjugal living must be restored unless ecclesiastical authority has established otherwise.

Can. 1154 After the separation of the spouses has taken place, the adequate support and education of the children must always be suitably provided.

Can. 1155 The innocent spouse laudably can readmit the other spouse to conjugal life; in this case the innocent spouse renounces the right to separate.

 

[monicatholic]

I am not cherry picking. I am telling you what it means. When it says that civil divorce is allowed, it does not mean that the spouses are free to remarry. It is permitted if there is a legal situation that makes it necessary, but the couple is still married as far as the Church is concerned.

i know what it means, floresco. and i know the difference between an allowable civil divorce and a permanent, public adultery as in the case of divorce/ civil remarriage. corrine hasn’t mentioned divorece and remarriage as one of her solutions. why do you respond as if she did?

i too, was sitting with those cannons in front of me. which is why i reminded her she is absolutely free to allow her spouse to remain in the home.

why you didnt highlight this:
**
Can. 1153 §1. If either of the spouses causes grave mental or physical danger to the other spouse or to the offspring or otherwise renders common life too difficult, that spouse gives the other a legitimate cause for leaving, either by decree of the local ordinary or even on his or her own authority if there is danger in delay.**

and this is very significant, too: ** In all cases, when the cause for the separation ceases, conjugal living must be restored unless ecclesiastical authority has established otherwise.**

it would appear the adultery hasn’t ceased. additionally, may i suggest the responsibility for determining that shouldn’t lie with corrine? i submit that the adulterous spouse should do everything in his power, submit to any and all reasonable scrutiny including medical testing, wittness to anyone-- pastor, doctor, therapist the innocent party deems suitable, in order to ‘prove’ the adultery has ceased.

any sane but repentant adulterer would expect to invest a long time in rebuilding his/ her spouse’s trust.

 

[Corinne3]

Corinne,
Sometimes when you get logged out while posting you can log back in and back screen to your message.

It sounds like you just had a fight with your husband, but there were no new incidents of infidelity. Married couples get upset with each other at times. If you are going to bring up his past sins every time you are angry with him, Mark has no incentive to try to do any better in the future. You are keeping him in the place of the “bad husband” and won’t let him out.

Floresco: True, it was nothing more than a tiff, I can say this now, a few days later. You are also right, I do tend to bring up his “past sins” at least in my mind, every time we argue, which really is not that much. I guess when a spouse has been so hurt, it’s common to blow everything out of proportion sometimes. My h even says at times, “what did I do now”? or “I’m good at that aren’t I hurting you again”??? I think from his angle he would tend to feel and think what a bad husband he is."…this makes him feel even worse.

Anyway, thanks Floresco for this perception.

 

[Corinne3]

Dear Corinne,

              May God bless you and thank you for sharing this. Try praising God for your circumstances God has permitted this for some reason. Praise releases gods grace into the situation. Just keep on praiing God and thanking him for this situation. God wants to say something to you through this. He wants you to develop in your relationship with him through this. Offer it up to God he will give you the Grace that you need. Spend time before the blessed sacrament.

                                      God bless.
                               With you in Jesus.

Hi Cordula!

Thanks for this! You know I was born with an incredible amount of LOVE in my heart for others. So much its literally bursting at times. I also have been told I have the “gift of tears”, whatever that is. I know God gave it to me. I have asked the Lord to use me and make me his instrument, (my biggest desire in life) How is HE doing this? He is testing me, and the gift He has given me, through my situation, my marriage situation. I really feel this at times. Thank you for the reminder to thank the Lord for my trials.

 

[Corinne3]

Thank you everyone for becoming so involved in this thread. I really appreciate it so much. Couple things though:

1. No more need to discuss STD’s, etc., I would have immediately gotten tested 2 years ago if I thought this were an issue. It is not.
2. No need to discuss re-marriage, and what the church says about it. I am NOT even near this point. I am still married to my one and only husband, and we are living together still.
3. I gave no mention of my husband’s name, so please leave any alleged names out when you write. Just please say, “Corinne’s husband”.

Thank you.

Floresco: Yes, I was letting off steam and venting.

Yes, it would be wrong of me to refuse intimacy to my husband, as Scripture says, I need to avoid sin myself. Thank you for pointing it out. However, if something upsets me, I do have the right to protect myself, emotionally or physically, for however long I need to, if that means not even touching my husband for a few days or whatever. Or should it mean, if I think he has been fooling around again, and I need to do what I feel I need to do. I know this.

As I said, I do not think my h had sex with this stripper. He told me though he would have, if I did not catch him when I did…he also told me he wanted to, but didn’t. I believe him. Although of course I cannot be positive, as I wasn’t there, was I?

He is trying very hard these days to be kinder, he has apologized and is bending over backwards in the home. Things are slightly better than last time I wrote. And I have no feelings that he has called or made any contact with said person again, since the 1 minute phone call. I am trying to let it go…and concentrate on having fun. Yes, I smile alot and enjoy my kids. We all had a great night together last night!

Thank You everyone again~

I’m sorry but yes my life is a roller coaster for the past 2 years. I know once I have a job, it will be more stable. I won’t have as much time to think about stuff. Or write here if anything comes up…

God Bless Everyone~

 

[Ponyguy]

Corrine, you’ve been dragged through a knothole by your tail, and I feel genuine admiration for you. I laud your having the “intestinal fortitude” to reveal your “unadorned self” and discuss such inner feelings.

From your most recent entries, it appears that the situation is calming down, and coming back under control… and I pray that it does. You are one amazing gal!

:bowdown: May the Peace of Christ follow you, as you scoot down this convoluted path called “life.”

 

[Corinne3]

Hi Ponygal: or guy, sorry if I forgot.

Thank you so much for replying~ I need all the help I can get and every response means just SOOOO much to me.

Thank you again.

 

[Corinne3]

As I was waiting somewhere lately, I read the most amazing and neat article in W magazine, written by a wife of some big-whig in New York. She was saying how, when they married, they had nothing and slept even on air matresses in one room, and now, her husband, (cannot recall his name), someone important, made zillions on Wall Street. It was amazing in the article how she remained so unchanged, still doing things for the less fortunate, the poor, still her same self.

Anyway, she said something along these lines, that “things”, are only “props” anyways in our lifetimes, and that relationships are so much more important.

I agree.

Just thought I’d mention it.

 

[defenderoftruth]

This is the gist of it…

Her husband has been cheating on her for a while…

He said he was sorry and has been on and off back at home between flings with a stripper for awhile. (btw I don’t trust the no intercourse thing)

Bottom line: Corinne’s husband will quit when he wants to and when he finally respects Corinne. Corinne will stop being a victim when she wants to and puts up boundaries.

All we can do is pray for them.

Oh and Floresco you give horrible advice. The have sex with him no matter what or your sinning thing-ridiculous (1 Corinthians 6:15-17). The “you’re making him feel like a bad guy and he has no incentive to stop”-yeah you’re right it’s her fault that he’s untrustworthy-end sarcasm. REALLY REALLY BAD ADVICE.

I’m done with this one except for prayer.

DoT

 

[Corinne3]

Just a word to say a huge THANK YOU for all you have chimed in. You all are so blessed, and I appreciate you ALL soooo much! Thanks.
I hope you all have good marriages.

Your Friend,
Corinne Penelope:thumbsup: