Hello, questions

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Dear ckempston,

I think you have not quite understood everything

We do not worship Mary. We just know that she has a great influence on her Son, and that’s why we ask her to intercede for us.

God bless you,

Alina
 
Alina said:
Dear ckempston,

I think you have not quite understood everything

We do not worship Mary. We just know that she has a great influence on her Son, and that’s why we ask her to intercede for us.

God bless you,

Alina
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Nobody needs her influence. Christians have **direct access **to the Father.

Ephesians 2:18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.

Ephesians 3:12 in whom we have **boldness and confident **access through faith in Him.

If you think somehow going through Mary increases your “access” to the Father, you are lacking Faith.
 
ckempston said:
Jesus doesn’t do everything Mary wants him to in the Bible.

Matthew 12:50 “For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.”
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Well, if Mary just is asking him things in accordance with the Will of God, how could Jesus refuse? Any instance in the Gospel where Jesus steadily refused her something?
 
In speaking of Mary, we are not speaking of a leading feminist… nor are we speaking of someone spoiled acting like a crybaby!
 
ckempston said:
Nobody needs her influence. Christians have **direct access **to the Father.

Ephesians 2:18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.

Ephesians 3:12 in whom we have **boldness and confident **access through faith in Him.

If you think somehow going through Mary increases your “access” to the Father, you are lacking Faith.
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So you can hear the Father’s words when you prise Him and pray to Him?
 
Dear ckempston,

Please, do not judge my faith, as you are definitely not entitled to do that.

Anyway, did I ever say that we need Mary’s influence ?
Of course we do not have to ask her if we do not want to ! She is there ‘just to help’, if I may say.

Did I ever say that we do not have direct access to God ?
Of course we do !!!

Nevertheless, in the example I gave above, we can see that although the servants have direct access to God, it is thanks to Mary’s intercession that Jesus turns water to wine.
Besides, you have not answered my question yet, and I am still wondering in what way what I wrote was a ‘giant leap of logic’.

God bless you,

Alina
 
ckempston said:
I have no problem honoring Mary, as far as honoring a created being is appropriate.

I certainly don’t think she’s nobody, but I also don’t think she is to be “venerated” (i.e. just another word for worshiped).
Just because I won’t worship Mary like you do, you conclude that I give her no honor at all?.
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Excuse me, sir, but if you don’t accept the terminology we use the way we use it… to you, “venerate” and “worship” is the same thing. Sorry, but here you are wrong, sir. You prefer to believe the misconceptions about how Catholics see Mary…
I know I don’t worship Mary! Neither does any Catholic in tune with the teachings of the Catholic Church!
Are you scandalised as to how much the Early Church Fathers wrote about our Blessed Mother? Do you know of the Early Church Fathers, by the way? In their days there was only one Church, although there were some heresies too.
 
Alina said:
Dear ckempston,

Please, do not judge my faith, as you are definitely not entitled to do that.
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Biblically correcting a falsehood is not judging. Christians are not only entitled, but required to point out falsehood. Are you claiming that the Catholic church, and by extension, its members, do not judge others?
Anyway, did I ever say that we need Mary’s influence ?
Of course we do not have to ask her if we do not want to ! She is there ‘just to help’, if I may say.
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Prove it.
Did I ever say that we do not have direct access to God ?
Of course we do !!!
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Going to Mary would be a waste of time if one had direct access to God. Jesus, our Great High Priest, can sympathize with every one of our weaknesses. We have no need to go through a Saint that can somehow better understand our struggles, or have quicker or better access to the Father.
Nevertheless, in the example I gave above, we can see that although the servants have direct access to God, it is thanks to Mary’s intercession that Jesus turns water to wine.
Besides, you have not answered my question yet, and I am still wondering in what way what I wrote was a ‘giant leap of logic’.
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For a conclusion to be valid and sound, it must follow from the premises. That Mary can intercede for us in Heaven does not follow from her “intercession” in Cana. Therefore, I call it a giant leap.

They didn’t know he was God yet, and wouldn’t have known they could ask him to perform a miracle. Mary obviously knew, from her experience with the angel and conceiving as a Virgin. However, that’s as far as it goes. She doesn’t have some kind of super duper access to God that somehow improves our chances of being heard.
 
ckempston said:
Biblically correcting a falsehood is not judging. Christians are not only entitled, but required to point out falsehood. Are you claiming that the Catholic church, and by extension, its members, do not judge others? (QUOTE)

One can be mistaken in supposedly “correcting” a so-called “falsehood”. How are you so sure it’s a falsehood?

Going to Mary would be a waste of time if one had direct access to God. Jesus, our Great High Priest, can sympathize with every one of our weaknesses. We have no need to go through a Saint that can somehow better understand our struggles, or have quicker or better access to the Father.
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Access to God alone when He has sent messengers to make His messages known? And prophets? And Apostles? And saints? What did HE not speak directly to us? It’s not because He couldn’t!!
 
ckempton, you still haven’t answered to my question: do you hear God’s answer when you praise and pray to Him? Remember, I asked first! 😉
 
Lapell said:
Excuse me, sir, but if you don’t accept the terminology we use the way we use it… to you, “venerate” and “worship” is the same thing. Sorry, but here you are wrong, sir. You prefer to believe the misconceptions about how Catholics see Mary…
I know I don’t worship Mary! Neither does any Catholic in tune with the teachings of the Catholic Church!
Are you scandalised as to how much the Early Church Fathers wrote about our Blessed Mother? Do you know of the Early Church Fathers, by the way? In their days there was only one Church, although there were some heresies too.
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No, actually, I looked up the terminology and researched it quite thoroughly. Proskuneo - the bowing down or kissing in reverence of anything other than God is idolatry. That’s a Biblical fact.

Find me the earliest quotes on the Blessed Mother. The earliest ones say nothing more than what is said in scripture about her. It was not until 300 years after Christ’s death that anybody had even an inkling of the modern Catholic view of Mary.

I defy you to find me a quote of an ECF within 200 years of Christ that said anything beyond what is written in the Bible about Mary.
 
Dear ckempston,

You said :
That Mary can intercede for us in Heaven does not follow from her “intercession” in Cana
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Well, then, why did John feel the need to write about that ? What did God want to show us ?
To add to this, may I point out that Jesus actually refuses to help the servants at the beginning, saying that His time has not come yet. And it is only after Mary **insisted ** (by directing the servants to him) that He agreed to help them.

What does that mean ?

You said too :
Going to Mary would be a waste of time if one had direct access to God. Jesus, our Great High Priest, can sympathize with every one of our weaknesses. We have no need to go through a Saint that can somehow better understand our struggles, or have quicker or better access to the Father.
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Has your mother ever refused you something ? Have you ever asked your siblings to help you convince her ?
Did it help ?

Well, in my experience, when several people ask, they have a better chance to receive what they want than if they were alone.

I think that this is quite a good analogy (although of course it is only an analogy, so it can’t be perfect).

God bless you,

Alina
 
Oh well, I suppose you sometimes hear someone’s voice within yourself (God is present there,after all, among other things…)
As for myself, I once heard somebody with a feminine voice. Only once. But then many other times when I prayed the Rosary, and the Rosary is not just to Mary, but in fact to the whole Trinity through the Immaculate Heart of Mary… Another mystery that you would rebel against unless Jesus himself would show you personnally… Well, you won’t believe, my prayers through the Rosary have been answered. Many times.
Well, I know He can show you, He did show Himself to Thomas who wasn’t able to believe the news that Jesus had risen from the dead. It’s not that Thomas didn’t want to believe the other Apostles, he just couldn’t. But how he wanted to believe it, though… Jesus saw that he did, so He was too happy to appear to him!
So He can also show you what you are not ready to believe…
I also could share you something personal…
 
Alina said:
Dear ckempston,

You said :

Well, then, why did John feel the need to write about that ? What did God want to show us ?
To add to this, may I point out that Jesus actually refuses to help the servants at the beginning, saying that His time has not come yet. And it is only after Mary **insisted ** (by directing the servants to him) that He agreed to help them.

What does that mean ?
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It means that while she was alive, Jesus’ mother had some influence on him, just as mine does me.
Has your mother ever refused you something ? Have you ever asked your siblings to help you convince her ?
Did it help ?
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Of course. Of course. And, of course. But she’s still alive. After she dies, I would cease to ask her for anything, because, unlike God, she is not omni-anything, and therefore, cannot hear the prayer of one person, let alone millions.
Well, in my experience, when several people ask, they have a better chance to receive what they want than if they were alone.
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I think that this is quite a good analogy (although of course it is only an analogy, so it can’t be perfect).
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It’s also an analogy based on man’s way of doing things, which isn’t God’s way.
 
Lapell said:
Oh well, I suppose you sometimes hear someone’s voice within yourself (God is present there,after all, among other things…)
As for myself, I once heard somebody with a feminine voice. Only once. But then many other times when I prayed the Rosary, and the Rosary is not just to Mary, but in fact to the whole Trinity through the Immaculate Heart of Mary… Another mystery that you would rebel against unless Jesus himself would show you personnally… Well, you won’t believe, my prayers through the Rosary have been answered. Many times.
Well, I know He can show you, He did show Himself to Thomas who wasn’t able to believe the news that Jesus had risen from the dead. It’s not that Thomas didn’t want to believe the other Apostles, he just couldn’t. But how he wanted to believe it, though… Jesus saw that he did, so He was too happy to appear to him!
So He can also show you what you are not ready to believe…
I also could share you something personal…
Click to expand...
I would take care of using answered prayers of proof of anything. That’s all I will say about that.
 
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