Help Discussing Catholic faith with a Southern Baptist

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Calgar said:
You honestly think that the are claiming to be the One and only Church created by Christ? :rolleyes:
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By the way Southern Baptists condemn Catholic teaching, it would seem as if Baptists think they have the infallible understanding of truth. But the reality is that the Southern Baptist denomination is founded upon self-appointed freelance Bible interpreters who took it upon themselves to start a church. The good news is that Jesus Christ established One True Church which will teach the truth throughout the ages, regardless of the weeds and wolves that were, are and always will be within both the clergy and the laity.
 
Calgar said:
How is that possible?
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The Eastern Orthodox have valid apostolic succession (traced to the apostles.) At the time of the split in 1050, they had valid bishops who could ordain valid priests as well as ordain other bishops. This means their priests can confect the 7 sacraments, which are the primary means for receiving Sanctifying Grace. (A sacrament is a visible sign instituted by Jesus Christ in order to give us grace.) Grace is a gift from God bestowed on us through the merits of Jesus Christ to save us.
 
Calgar said:
And vice versa.
Pistols at dawn? 😃
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The difference is that the Catholic Church traces its origin directly to Jesus Christ, while Southern Baptist’s trace back to John Smyth; just like the Mormon’s *“Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” * trace their origin back to Joseph Smith. So in effect those two groups have placed their faith and trust in the teachings of men. Furthermore, the father of Protestantism was a heretic. Martin Luther was an ex-Catholic priest who took it upon himself to remove books from the Bible and to start teaching new doctrines. A heretic is one who was a member of the Church but was excommunicated for obstinately teaching false doctrines.

Realize that Martin Luther removed 7 Old Testament books based upon what the European Jews of his day considered part of their canon of Scripture. Luther did not realize that the European Jews of his day were using a canon assembled in the year 90 AD—long after the resurrection and the establishment of the Church—when Christianity was spreading like wildfire, the unconverted Jews who rejected Jesus Christ dismissed the Septuagint (the Greek version of the Old Testament). Most of Jesus’ quotes from the Old Testament are from the Septuagint, and one of these books was the *Book of Wisdom *which has describes the prophecy about the suffering messiah. Take a look at one of the books you will not find in your Protestant Bible–thanks to Luther’s folly:
*
Let us therefore lie in wait for the just, because he is not for our turn, and he is contrary to our doings, and upbraids us with transgressions of the law, and divulges against us the sins of our way of life. He boasts that he has the knowledge of God, and calls himself the son of God. He has become a censurer of our thoughts. He is grievous unto us, even to behold: for his life is not like other men’s, and his ways are very different. We are esteemed by him as triflers, and he abstains from our ways as from filthiness, and he prefers the latter end of the just, **and glories that he has God for his father. *Let us see then if his words be true, and let us prove what shall happen to him, and we shall know what his end shall be. For if he be the true son of God, he will defend him, and will deliver him from the hands of his enemies. Let us examine him by outrages and tortures, that we may know his meekness and try his patience. Let us condemn him to a most shameful death: for there shall be respect had unto him by his words." Wisdom 2:12-20

And yes, the Orthodox include the Book of Wisdom in their Bibles.
 
Gabriel_Serafin said:
By the way Southern Baptists condemn Catholic teaching, it would seem as if Baptists think they have the infallible understanding of truth. But the reality is that the Southern Baptist denomination is founded upon self-appointed freelance Bible interpreters who took it upon themselves to start a church. The good news is that Jesus Christ established One True Church which will teach the truth throughout the ages, regardless of the weeds and wolves that were, are and always will be within both the clergy and the laity.
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So, are you saying Southern Baptists are weeds? (they produce no good)
 
Bix said:
So, are you saying Southern Baptists are weeds? (they produce no good)
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No, the weeds and the wolves are the bad clergy and laity inside the Catholic Church as well as among all the people claiming to be followers of Christ. But Protestants today are merely following the errors of heretics long ago; this does not mean the many Christians in the various protestant denominations are bad or will be condemned. On the contrary; God will judge depending upon what we were given. Those to whom much was given (Catholics) much will be required from them.

I don’t mean to torpedo your religious beliefs, but rather to confront you with the truth about Jesus Christ and the teachings of His Church. Thus I am happy to invite you to explore the Catholic Church so that you too can* eat the Body and drink the Blood of Jesus Christ in the Most Holy Eucharist*

http://www.sannikulas.org/joomla13/images/stories/CServices/holy_eucharist_1.jpg
 
Gabriel_Serafin said:
The difference is that the Catholic Church traces its origin directly to Jesus Christ, while Southern Baptist’s trace back to John Smyth; just like the Mormon’s *“Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” * trace their origin back to Joseph Smith. So in effect those two groups have placed their faith and trust in the teachings of men.
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First and foremost: Southern Baptists do not believe that the SBC is THE CHURCH all by itself. ALL Christians make up the Church.

Second: We put our trust in the teachings of men? We are Bible alone, you guys are the ones that take tradition along with that.

And for the record: I find it highly offensive and derogatory that you would compare us to Mormon’s.
 
Gabriel_Serafin said:
The Eastern Orthodox have valid apostolic succession (traced to the apostles.) At the time of the split in 1050, they had valid bishops who could ordain valid priests as well as ordain other bishops. This means their priests can confect the 7 sacraments, which are the primary means for receiving Sanctifying Grace. (A sacrament is a visible sign instituted by Jesus Christ in order to give us grace.) Grace is a gift from God bestowed on us through the merits of Jesus Christ to save us.
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Don’t the Lutherans claima the same kind of thing? Are they also the one true church?
 
Originally Posted by Gabriel Serafin
. But the Eastern Orthodox have valid apostolic succession, thus their Holy Orders and seven sacraments are valid.
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Calgar said:
How is that possible?
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That is what you should explore…and the fact that despite the schism…they have kept their beliefs the same as when the the East and the West Church were one.

and the fact that they have not splintered into thousands of Orthodox Churches, when compared with the ever splitting protestants…is because they kept their apostolic line, and the hierarchy inherited from the Apostles…bishops, presbyters, deacons…they kept their apostolic tradition.

This one case study you should look into deeply.
 
Calgar said:
First and foremost: Southern Baptists do not believe that the SBC is THE CHURCH all by itself. ALL Christians make up the Church.\

How? Did Christ say church with different beliefs that continue to cause splits…or one church with the same faith, same beliefs…did not Christ pray for unity?
Second: We put our trust in the teachings of men? We are Bible alone,
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Calgar said:
First and foremost: Southern Baptists do not believe that the SBC is THE CHURCH all by itself. ALL Christians make up the Church.
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All validly baptized persons are a member of the Church; however there are Christian denominations that teach error, and an incomplete Christianity. Understand that Satan has been waging war against the Church, and his tactic is to divide and create chaos and confusion. Thus the hallmarks of Protestantism is division and confusion, with members of each denomination staring a new denomination when they didn’t agree with what their “pastor” was teaching. I find it quite arrogant for men to not only appoint themselves freelance interpreters of Sacred Scripture, and then go as far as founding their own denomination.
Second: We put our trust in the teachings of men? We are Bible alone, you guys are the ones that take tradition along with that.
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That’s the point—“Bible alone” is a man-made teaching. It may sound good, but it’s a false teaching. Can you please tell me once and for all where in the Bible does it teach to go by the Bible alone? And what did all the first Christians do when there was no Bible? Sola Scriptura is a false doctrine introduced by Martin Luther in the 16th century. Protestantism traces its roots to Germany, and you’ve put your faith in the teachings of Luther, a man who not only removed 7 books from Bible, but also denigrated the Book of James because it contradicted his false teachings. About the of Book of Revelation he taught:

“…to my mind it bears upon it no marks of an apostolic or prophetic character… Everyone may form his own judgment of this book; as for myself, I feel an aversion to it, and to me this is sufficient reason for rejecting it.” --Sammtliche Werke

Understand once and for all that Jesus did not hand out Bibles; instead He established a Church that was teaching with binding authority before the New Testament was even written down. The only reason we know what Books belong in the Bible is because of Sacred Tradition.
And for the record: I find it highly offensive and derogatory that you would compare us to Mormon’s.
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Mormons are merely the victims of the erroneous teachings of men. Much like Southern Baptists, Lutherans or 7-Day Adventists, or Calvinists, or etc. etc. you are all following the teachings of men. In your case, John Smyth. But Christ warned “Call no man father; call no man teacher”. Protestantism laid the foundation for Momonism, with its explosion of splintering sects following the teachings of self-appointed freelance Bible interpreters who gave themselves authority to teach in the name of God.
 
pablope said:
I think he mean the founding of your denomination, which is akin to the LDS…someone claiming to know what the Bible teaches…and there gives birth to a “church”…
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You realize that the book of mormon is not the Bible, right?
 
Calgar said:
I never knew this John Smyth (I have NEVER heard of this man) “created” Bible alone philosophy.
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Realize that “Bible Alone” Christianity was invented in the 16th century by Martin Luther. John Smyth was the founder of the Baptist denomination. He was ordained as an Anglican priest but soon after his ordination he broke away from the Church of England and left for Holland where he and his small congregation began to study the Bible ardently. It was then that he began to form his own doctrines. But realize that the Church of England (The Anglican Church) was founded by King Henry VIII after he broke away from the Catholic Church when the pope refused to grant him a divorce from his lawfully wedded wife Queen Catherine of Aragon (the king’s first wife, he eventually had a total of eight wives). King Henry VIII made himself “the head” of the Church of England. It was from that church that the founder of your denomination came from.

Here is a graphic which puts the basic historical record of some of the major Christian denominations outside the Catholic Church with their respective founders:

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Now read how the Church operated before the New Testament was written down:

*"And some coming down from Judea, taught the brethren: That except you be circumcised after the manner of Moses, you cannot be saved. And when Paul and Barnabas had no small contest with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain others of the other side, should go up to the apostles and priests to Jerusalem about this question. . . .

And the apostles and ancients assembled to consider of this matter. . . . Then it pleased the apostles and ancients, with the whole church, to choose men of their own company, and to send to Antioch, with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas, who was surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren. Writing by their hands: . . .

"Forasmuch as we have heard, that some going out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls; to whom we gave no commandment: It hath seemed good to us, being assembled together, to choose out men, and to send them unto you, with our well beloved Barnabas and Paul: Men that have given their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who themselves also will, by word of mouth, tell you the same things."-- Acts 15:1-24*

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Now consider the actual words of Jesus Christ:

And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven—Matt. 18:16-18
 
Calgar said:
I’ve heard this line of commentary from Roman Catholics before. I’m sure that there are ministers who have taken things out of context and misled Christians (Are you saying the RCC is blameless?), but an important part of SBC theology is Bible study.

You doubt the Bible?
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I used to be a Southern Baptist. Almost went into your ministry, (See My Testimony)

Faithful Catholics do not now, have not ever, and will never , “doubt the Bible”, but what we do doubt is your fundamental doctrine that the Bible is the final and ultimate authority for all that Christians believe and practice, nor that the Bible is “self interpreting”. Having read the Bible many times and continuing to do so I find that the Bible nowhere asserts that authority. It doesn’t even tell us what writings are inspired and belong in it to begin with.

So far as doctrine is concerned, we are, in fact, pointing out that authentic and authoritative Catholic teaching is without error by the promise of Christ and the gracious action of the Holy Spirit.

Your doctrines are very modern teachings of men by comparison, whereas our own Bible is the same as the one that was canonized by the early church in 393 AD, and our liturgy of the Mass is essentially the same as that of the early church (See my blog article What Was Authentic Early Christian Worship Really Like? ) and is more Biblically based than most all of the modern n-C services. (See A Biblical Walk Through the Mass by Dr. Edward Sri)
 
CostantinoA80 said:
My mother was raised Catholic but says that she claims the Southern Baptist Faith is the right religion. She claims that Catholics teach false teachings and they are all going to hell. I have tried to discuss this with her but she is so emotional and I am so uneducated about religion, I need some help. Please help… 🙂 What verses can I point to that shows the Catholic faith is correct and the baptist faith is false. Please let me know.
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There is no quick and easy answer to this one; first and foremost: Learn Your Religion :tsktsk:

You must allow her emotions to run its course. While she is being highly emotional about this issue nothing can be gained. Forget logic, she will only assume that she doesn’t know enough about Southern Baptist to refute you.

Just remember that Southern Baptist will greet all the brethren by name unless they meet in the liquor store. 😛

P.S. just a thought; but you could set a rock in the middle of the table and discuss Catholicism to it. If your mother ask tell her that the rock is more apt to receive the truth.:rolleyes:
 
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