Help Discussing Catholic faith with a Southern Baptist

[Calgar]

So if you disagree with the 33K…what do you think the number is?

The number is irrelevant to me. I just wanted to show that you were making things up (or just googling for things that support whatever you are trying to prove).

To be honest, I don’t believe you are making it up, you just grab at any online argument that supports your flawed world view.

You realize that the statistics you posted include hundreds of Orthodox and Roman Catholic denominations?

They also double count many of the denominations. I could go on with all the problems, but the 33,000 number has been shown to be wrong in other discussions on these forums.

Good day!

 

[David_Castlen]

My mother was raised Catholic but says that she claims the Southern Baptist Faith is the right religion. She claims that Catholics teach false teachings and they are all going to hell. I have tried to discuss this with her but she is so emotional and I am so uneducated about religion, I need some help. Please help… What verses can I point to that shows the Catholic faith is correct and the baptist faith is false. Please let me know.

In the end, all these discussion boil down to the issue of Sola Fide: The Bible Alone. You must satisfy this issue to logically satisy the arguement; however, it is by grace alone that one is a Catholic.

 

[pablope]

The number is irrelevant to me. I just wanted to show that you were making things up (or just googling for things that support whatever you are trying to prove).

Well, is it irrelevant to God? Let me re-ask again…what was or is God’s will-disunity or unity?

You realize that the statistics you posted include hundreds of Orthodox and Roman Catholic denominations?

 

[Douglas_J_Cook]

Two thoughts on this subject.

I forget the passage but you all will recognize it: Jesus said to Peter, upon this rock I will
build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. So if a common man had
to reboot the Christian church 1600 years later because the church that the “Son of God”
established failed; then I guess the “Son of God” was wrong and the gates of hell did conqurer it.

And secondly, if the “Son of God” failed against Satan to establish a church that would
prevail to the “End Of Times”, what chance does this mere mortal in the fifteen century
think he has agaisnt Satan?

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

You do realize that many churches in such a large city can be the same denomination, right?

Obviously; but the fact that there are different denominations *teaching different things * should be troubling to anyone seeking Truth. Especially in the light of what the apostles had to deal with in their time, with people teaching false things, going out from them with no authority, teaching opinions instead of truth. Thus it was that the apostles chose men to send them to teach what the Holy Spirit was teaching through the Church (Acts 15:1-24)

Not to say that the founders of all these Christian denominations are not well intentioned. Most false teachers and heretics actually believe they are teaching the truth. For example, in the Book of Acts, certain people from Judea went to Antioch and started teaching the believers that unless they be circumcised they could not be saved. That cause a heated argument between them and Paul who then went all the way back to Jerusalem to discuss the matter with the apostles and elders in the Church.

There are young people today who ardently believe in Marxism, but their ardent and sincere belief does not make them right; furthermore, their sincere and well intentioned but misguided beliefs can do great harm and mislead many down the path of error, lies and half truths. This is also the case with self-appointed freelance Bible interpreters who assume themselves teachers and set up shop with their own brand of Christianity known as a Christian denomination

It’s not about picking up a book and start preaching what you think the Holy Spirit is inspiring you to preach. The Bible was given to us from God through His Church. Jesus did not hand out Bibles, He established a Church with authority to teach, thus He warned* to call no man father.* This is not to say that truth cannot shine even through false teachers; the problem is that when truth is laced with error, the error can be swallowed with the truth.
img217.imageshack.us/img217/4346/pastorpreacher.jpg

Martin Luther fathered Lutheranism just as Calvin fathered Calvinism or the preacher down the road who opens this own church–they all took the Bible and made themselves authorities. That’s like appointing one’s self a policeman. I don’t care what Mr. John Calvin, or Mr. Smyth, or Mr. Luther wants to teach. I care about what the Holy Spirit teaches us through the Church. Satan is always deceiving people, especially those who want to follow Christ, and “good intentions,” or personal inspirations are not inoculations against self-deception or even demonic deception—especially since many self-appointing pastors who start leading a flock are more often than not drenched in pride and self glory, rather than sincere and humble seekers of truth ready to submit to legitimate authority within the Church.

 

[Cinette]

Scripture quoting will not get you far if you are unprepared to discuss context, history and reason. It’s hard enough to be prepared in those aspects and still have a reasonably mature and charitable discussion with an emotional person, let alone an anti-Catholic.

I have anti-Catholic Southern Baptists in my family as well, and although they are not emotionally aggressive (anymore) about condemning Catholicism, they are biased toward their own interpretation of scripture, which is really an absorbed acceptance of dozens of various “teachers” of scripture over the course of several decades. So, scripture verses without the primacy of context, history and reason are futile discussions, in my experience.

My advice: learn your faith, learn it well. Read your Catechism, take a good Catholic Bible study course (like The Great Adventure), watch EWTN, read any of these books, explore Catholic Answers and other abundant Catholic sites, ask questions - lots of them.

Do that for about a year or so, and leave your dear mother alone. In the meantime, continue to pray, for yourself and for her, for guidance, wisdom, strength, and an increase in faith and love.

Then, when you feel ready, handle her objections one at a time, using all aspects of your learned faith…scripture, tradition, history, reason, context…and slowly begin to unravel her arguments one strand at a time. You will find taking the time off to first learn your faith well will give you a much clearer road map and strategy for conversing with your mom, and understanding what exactly it is she objects to.

Of course, if you don’t like any of this advice, and just want scripture stuff now, then go here.

*You have given a treasure trove of titles - I recognise some of them. How I would suggest that first he should get SURPRISED BY TRUTH BY Patrick Madrid. The one conversion story that stands out is Tim Staples’ “The Bible made me do it”. Go through all the verses quoted and absorb it well. It is also a treasure. In fact, all the stories are GREAT!

Cinette *

 

[Cinette]

I sent my mother this “The basic difference is that the Catholic Church is the mystical Body of Our Blessed Lord and was founded by Him to save all men bringing them to God. It is God’s dispensation for man’s salvation. The Baptist religion is an heretical breakaway from Catholicsm which started over fifteen centuries after Our Blessed Lord left us the Catholic Church and is based on individual’s who disagreed with how Our Blessed Lord went about trying to save us. The Baptist religion thus redefines everything that Our Blessed Lord left us, including denying books of the Bible and all the traditions which were not written down in the books of the Bible that they do accept. Catholics Christians believe that you only have one choice in life, whether to follow Our Blessed Lord or not. You have to make that choice over and over again until you die, but it is your only choice. Baptists believe that you can decided HOW you want to follow Our Blessed Lord.”

AND SHE REPLIED THIS

"The Protestant Reformation came about because of the errors and heresy of the Catholic
Church. The breakaway was necessary; to go back to what Jesus intended for His church;
and this was started by Martin Luther centuries ago. During this period of time; the Catholic
Church KILLED all people; whom were protesting and leaving the Catholic Church; and this
is referred to as the Christian Crusades.

Thus, there is only one simple way; to be saved; and it is NOT through mother Mary, or anyone else…ONLY THROUGH JESUS CHRIST, THE LORD! It is idolatry to pray to this
person or anyone else, except Jesus. For those whom have been cleansed, by the blood of
Jesus; and are sanctified by His Grace; are considered saints. Not to be prayed to; but to
be grafted into the family of God. The Baptist Church goes strictly by the Bible; and is
without error; because God’s Word is truly without error. The Catholic Church has added
to their religion things that are NOT Biblical…praying to mother Mary; and other saints to
get healed, saved, or to have certain prayers answered. Plus having to pay money for the
remission of one’s sins (penance); etc. We can only pray to the Trinity; that is God, the Father, Jesus, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; all of which are three persons one of the same. The Catholic Church adopted 13 additional books of the Bible, as their own; which theologians have determined that are really not the pertinent Words of God; that needed to be included, in the world wide acceptance of the now known living Word of God; mainly the King James Version of the Bible. They are so very many things Christ accomplished on
earth…miracles, etc.; that there are not enough books in the world to contain everything. Thus, just the most important writings are mandatory.

This priest is saying things that are NOT true; such as, we do traditions that are not in the
Bible; which is a lie. Also, once one is saved; by putting their lives and trust in Lord Jesus;
and following Him in accordance to His Holy Word; then that person is saved for eternity.
They don’t have to say it over and over again. But, their live style must reflect a “changed
Born-Again position”; and they need to obey Jesus and His teachings faithfully. Baptists
don’t decide on their own how they are to follow Jesus. This is NOT true! True believers
do what God desires in the Bible; and don’t decide how they are going to live independently
from Christ’s will.

Survivors of the Titanic chose to take a life boat to safety; instead remaining on the ship;
because it was the biggest thing around; and they thought, that it wouldn’t sink. Many
people perished unnecessary. Are you going to take that chance too? Yes, there could be a few Born-Again Christians in the Catholic Church; staying there why I don’t know. Probably just to socialize; or to appease family/friends. But, I won’t risk my eternal destiny on something that isn’t totally and completely agreeable with God. I suggest that you do the
same. Sure you have the right to go and do what you want, at this age; but a loving son
would do what their parents say; because they are much wiser (usually) than the child; and
know which avenue to go down safely; especially when it comes to their eternally destiny. "

*Sorry but your dear Mother’s response is like a stew! It shows ignorance and I think you need to be gentle with her. Just remind her that since Luther the Protestants have split and re-split into tens of thousands of denominations and that today these denominations do not resemble the teachings of Luther at all! He must be turning in his grave and making reparation for the wrong that he did. Luther, Calvin and Zwingli all believed that Mary is the Mother of God. I am not sure but I think they also believed in the Real Presence (at least Luther did) Today the Protestants do not believe in these things or most things Luther believed in! He caused havoc in the Church.

Hmm… Your Mother was not properly instructed in the Catholic Faith - she speaks exactly like a Protestant. If she is prepared to go along with you ask her 10 questions basic in the Catholic Faith. Does she know for instance that there is a difference between Tradition and tradition? What is meant by the “deposit of Faith” What is the Magisterium? and so on. If she does not know (my guess is she doesn’t) then you can explain it to her. That little book “Answer me this” by Patrick Madrid is wonderful as is “Where is that in the Bible”. They are little treasures. Get them and keep them close.

Good luck
Cinette *

 

[Cinette]

I agree with you on this one. Know your faith from top to bottom! I suggest reading church history, especially the reformation and the early church fathers. Also, its good to arm yourself on controversial topics such as the inquisition and the crusades! Know these and you can converse with any protestant. That’s what I did and I could say with utmost certainty that the RCC is the one true religion.

Oh come on bro!

*I am reading an interesting book by a convert Michael Coren “Why Catholics are Right” - Worthwhile.

Cinette
*

 

[Calgar]

Obviously; but the fact that there are different denominations *teaching different things * should be troubling to anyone seeking Truth.

Teaching different things?

If they teach anything other than the Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the full deity and perfect humanity of Jesus Christ, His virgin birth, His sinless life, His substitutionary atonement for sins, His resurrection from the dead, His exaltation to the right hand of God, and His triumphal return then, yes they are troubling.

And I would have to say that they probably shouldn’t be considered Christian denominations.

 

[Cinette]

I am a former southern baptist myself. The main thing is being loving and understanding. Learning your faith as well as possible is very important, and this situation is a good means to be motivated to study your faith. But I have learned by experience that unless the one you are discussing your faith with is open to Catholicism and willing to listen and even embrace truth when it means admitting that they are wrong, then no matter how good you know your faith and articulate it and prove them wrong, they will reject it until they are ready. Seems like most of the time our own family is the hardest to change, and it usually takes somebody other than close family to really say the right things. Jesus said a prophet is not accepted in his own hometown.

When I was coming into the Church my wife opposed me hard. I could answer any question with Scripture and the Church Fathers and win every debate with her. But it being me and not one of her friends, she was unwilling to accept it. I have learned that love, compassion, and holiness is greater than knowledge!

*Wise words!

Another good book comes to mind “Search and Rescue” by Patrick Madrid. It addresses exactly what you are saying here.

Cinette*

 

[Cinette]

Thank you everyone for the amazing replies and links. I am reading them and going to build my knowledge. I am attending RCIA classes and I am reading the book titles Basics of the Catholic Faith and This is our Faith. I am going to try and comply a response back to her email from all the responses I got here and see what happens. I will post my reply to her as well as her reply back… I am really trying to get to the bottom of this. I am exploring faith as I have been a Atheist for so many years. I want to make the right choice and it seems that God has me headed to the Catholic church and not to any other church.

Please consider “Search and Rescue” by Patrick Madrid.

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

Teaching different things? If they teach anything other than the Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the full deity and perfect humanity of Jesus Christ, His virgin birth, His sinless life, His substitutionary atonement for sins, His resurrection from the dead, His exaltation to the right hand of God, and His triumphal return then, yes they are troubling. And I would have to say that they probably shouldn’t be considered Christian denominations.

Many teach that all you need is faith, others teach against infant baptism, some preach Christ without the cross, others preach a health and wealth gospel, some teach a false understanding of the Communion of Saints and attack the reality of Purgatory, and most don’t even know what a sacrament is (let alone offer them). Some teach that artificial contraception is not a sin, others say you don’t need to confess your sins to a priest, others teach that Catholics aren’t Christian and that the pope is the antichrist, some claim Catholicism is the Whore of Babylon, etc.— but worst of all is that they deny or are clueless about the reality of the Most Holy Eucharist, which is the precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ given to us in Holy Communion at the Mass. —And that’s just the start.

The chaos, confusion and incomplete or false teachings coming from the mouths of countless self-appointed freelance Bible interpreters has disregarded the teaching authority of the Church and offered a false or incomplete and shallow Christianity, teaching a Christ without the cross and a rejection of the authority given by God to the Church to bind and loose things in heaven and on earth, ad help souls reach eternal life. Satan is the master of lies and half truths, and his aim is to guide souls into error away from the truth.

So yes, many may parrot some basic theological truths about God and Jesus Christ, but all those denominations lack the primary means for sanctification, which are the 7 Sacraments instituted by Jesus Christ to give us sanctifying grace. Most denominations only have 2 sacraments, which do not require a valid priesthood (Baptism and Matrimony).
http://www.goddiscussion.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Preacher-300x191.jpg
By the way, up until 1930, all Protestant denominations agreed with the Catholic Church’s teaching condemning contraception as sinful. In 1930 the Anglican church announced that contraception would be allowed in some extreme circumstances. Soon the Anglican church completely caved in. Today most Christian denominations teach the use of artificial contraception is good. It’s no coincidence society has been rotting at a rapid pace since the proliferation and widespread use of The Pill since its introduction in the 1960s.

 

[pablope]

Many teach that all you need is faith, others teach against infant baptism, some preach Christ without the cross, others preach a health and

By the way, up until 1930, all Protestant denominations agreed with the Catholic Church’s teaching condemning contraception as sinful. In 1930 the Anglican church announced that contraception would be allowed in some extreme circumstances. Soon the Anglican church completely caved in. Today most Christian denominations teach the use of artificial contraception is good. It’s no coincidence society has been rotting at a rapid pace since the proliferation and widespread use of The Pill since its introduction in the 1960s.

I was just listening on radio to a talk about this event. After the Anglicans decided to allow contraception, all protestant denoms soon followed…that by the 60s or so…all had done so, save for the Catholic Church. Everybody expected the CC to follow suite.

But lo and behold…all were shocked when Paul VI issued Humanae Vitae, affirming the traditional teaching of the Catholic Church on this issue.

Thank God…for the guidance of the HS, the See of Peter stood its ground and maintained its “Tradition”! The gates of hell did not prevail.

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . .We are Bible alone, you guys are the ones that take tradition along with that. . . .

Calgar,
I know you claim Bible alone (as you already know, I am a former Southern Baptist); but some of the basic SB beliefs are not actually found in the Bible----such as Baptism being a Church ordinance that is symbolic and is done in obedience; or that The Lord’s Supper is purely remembrance, just to name a few.

If you truly believe in “Bible alone,” you would not need Pastors to give sermons and tell you what the Bible means. Once one word of commentary has been spoken, Bible alone ceases to exist.

Basically, Southern Baptists traded the Tradition of the early Church for traditions that were born out of the Protestant Reformation, mixed with a pro-slavery stance in America (that has since been addressed by SB Resolutions against the actions of its origin. Link: sbc.net/resolutions/amResolution.asp?ID=899)

I’m not saying Anglicans have a better history. We all have something; and I hear about King Henry often on these forums.

My point is that tradition is inescapable; and the idea that your beliefs are shaped by “Bible alone” is, IMHO, unrealistic.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

My mother was raised Catholic but says that she claims the Southern Baptist Faith is the right religion. She claims that Catholics teach false teachings and they are all going to hell. I have tried to discuss this with her but she is so emotional and I am so uneducated about religion, I need some help. Please help… What verses can I point to that shows the Catholic faith is correct and the baptist faith is false. Please let me know.

CostantinoA80,

Quite awhile ago, someone posted a link to “How Do Catholics Hear The Gospel?” (Gary Michuta) Link: socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/01/how-do-catholics-hear-gospel-gary.html.

It contains quite an interesting dialogue in a style SB might be able to relate to.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Calgar]

Once one word of commentary has been spoken, Bible alone ceases to exist.

Peace,
Anna

Yeah, that worked out well for the branch dividians didn’t it?

If you truly know God’s Word then you know that we have been told us to judge what others say by it. So your claim that we should just blindly follow what those in authority tell us about the Holy Bible rings false.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Calgar,
I know you claim Bible alone (as you already know, I am a former Southern Baptist); but some of the basic SB beliefs are not actually found in the Bible----such as Baptism being a Church ordinance that is symbolic and is done in obedience; or that The Lord’s Supper is purely remembrance, just to name a few.

If you truly believe in “Bible alone,” you would not need Pastors to give sermons and tell you what the Bible means. Once one word of commentary has been spoken, Bible alone ceases to exist.

Basically, Southern Baptists traded the Tradition of the early Church for traditions that were born out of the Protestant Reformation, mixed with a pro-slavery stance in America (that has since been addressed by SB Resolutions against the actions of its origin. Link: sbc.net/resolutions/amResolution.asp?ID=899)

I’m not saying Anglicans have a better history. We all have something; and I hear about King Henry often on these forums.

My point is that tradition is inescapable; and the idea that your beliefs are shaped by “Bible alone” is, IMHO, unrealistic.

Peace,
Anna

Yeah, that worked out well for the branch dividians didn’t it?

If you truly know God’s Word then you know that we have been told us to judge what others say by it. So your claim that we should just blindly follow what those in authority tell us about the Holy Bible rings false.

Calgar,

Not sure what you hoped to accomplish by throwing in the Branch Davidian comment.

I didn’t “claim we should just blindly follow what those in authority tell us about the Holy Bible.” I’m actually saying just the opposite, because those in authority in the Southern Baptist Church, claiming “Bible alone,” teach things that are in opposition to what Holy Scripture says.

As I said, some of the basic SB beliefs are not actually found in the Bible----such as Baptism being a Church ordinance that is symbolic and is done in obedience; or that The Lord’s Supper is purely remembrance, just to name a few. If you believe these things are found in Holy Scripture, please provide proof from Holy Scripture.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Calgar]

Calgar,

Not sure what you hoped to accomplish by throwing in the Branch Davidian comment.

Peace,
Anna

I meant to give an example where one persons interpretation of scripture should not have been followed.

 

[pablope]

Yeah, that worked out well for the branch dividians didn’t it?

And what about the Branch Davidians? Sorry, but I am lost as to what is the connection of the branch davidians? Can you explain further?

If you truly know God’s Word then you know that we have been told us to judge what others say by it.

 

[Calgar]

And what about the Branch Davidians? Sorry, but I am lost as to what is the connection of the branch davidians? Can you explain further?

He lists the passages of the Bible each lesson is derived from for the express purpose of us studying it for ourselves in detail outside of that particular sermon.

Don’t you follow blindly what your pastor tells you about what the Bible says, isn’t it?

Of course not. You follow the leaders of the RCC blindly?

And how would one know your SB tradition has connection with the Apostolic Tradition?

Can you define Apostolic Tradition for me?

And how would know God’s word? How would you know it came from God? And how would you know what criteria to judge it is God’s word?

Wow, you really want to get into all of that? To prevent using up my character limit I’ll post a few things that you can research about the Bible on your own:

The fulfulled prophesies in the Bible
It’s inspired and Holy authors
It’s accuracy
Historical and Archaelogical proof
It’s survival through the ages

There’s a LOT more, but this will be a good start for you.