Hillary Wears A Cross

[estesbob]

Anyway, I think that for Catholics who do have faith, we have a moral obligation to approach those who have misguided views with charity and help them to see the truth. For those that just bash pro-choicers and call them wrong or evil, well, what does that accomplish, rhetoric like that isn’t going to change their views or save more babies.

1.2 million dead children a year. Now tell me what is NOT wrong AND evil about that. This is not just another poltical dispute-we are talking the most abject evil to posess a society EVER. There simply is no way to minimze or rationalize this evil. If pointing this out again and again and again makes me a “basher” I proudly wear the label.

 

[Thomas_B]

So you believe that we should hold those who ran the gas chambers responsible but excuse those who hired them?

Estesbob,

You might want to read my reply to Jennifer123. You are making a big assumption that Hillary has full awareness of the point at which life/self-awareness starts. If she is ignorant of the truth, she cannot be held morally culpable and that is not for you or me to judge, but reserved only for the Lord alone.

Regarding your gas chamber analogy, yes, it is the people who hire the gas chamber workers and workers themselves that are morally culpable for the evil of killing. But also, it is also every single person who are aware of the evil being done that have a moral obligation to act. So, if you think that Hillary is this awful pariah that is killing 1.2 million children a year, what are you doing to stop her? Maybe when she is next up for re-election you’ll fly out to NY to campaign for a pro-life Republican for Senate, contribute to their campaign, or maybe write letters or man phone banks for the candidate. In the meantime, I would propose that you charitably give her the benefit of the doubt that she is not fully aware of the sanctity of life at conception as you are and pray for her conversion. I just don’t see how talking about how much you dislike her on a message board with mainly like-minded individuals is accomplishing anything.

 

[Kevin42]

Oh if only she really was undergoing a deeper conversion, what a miracle that would be. A poster-woman for the culture of death actually converting would be a miraculous display of God’s love, power, and mercy. I suppose all we can do is pray for her that maybe she will undergo a deep conversion and turn towards God. There is no way to know what is in her heart, no matter how bad she appears, so I think we just need to pray that this is the beginning, or will lead to a deeper conversion.

 

[rpp]

I think the likelihood of Hillary undergoing some type of conversion is remote at best. She has way too much to loose. If she rejects her (a)moral stance on abortion, for example, she would be publicly excoriated then utterly rejected and equally publicly shunned by the baby killers.

At the same time, those who share her theorized “newly adopted” moral stance rejecting abortion, such as me, would not trust her as a political leader. She would be never be reelected. Her conversion would have to mean she would be willing to give up her political power and career. Just look at all the other posts here.

On the other hand, I was an atheist for nearly 25 years and supported abortion. I had a sudden conversion and now can best be described at a conservative Catholic and daily communicant who is utterly opposed to abortion. Clearly conversion is possible.

Don’t read too much into what jewelry she wears. Crosses are popular and lots of people wear them. For many secularized non-Christian Americans and Europeans, a cross carries little or no intrinsic meaning. How terribly tragic.

 

[estesbob]

Estesbob,

You might want to read my reply to Jennifer123. You are making a big assumption that Hillary has full awareness of the point at which life/self-awareness starts. If she is ignorant of the truth, she cannot be held morally culpable and that is not for you or me to judge, but reserved only for the Lord alone.

Regarding your gas chamber analogy, yes, it is the people who hire the gas chamber workers and workers themselves that are morally culpable for the evil of killing. But also, it is also every single person who are aware of the evil being done that have a moral obligation to act. So, if you think that Hillary is this awful pariah that is killing 1.2 million children a year, what are you doing to stop her? Maybe when she is next up for re-election you’ll fly out to NY to campaign for a pro-life Republican for Senate, contribute to their campaign, or maybe write letters or man phone banks for the candidate. In the meantime, I would propose that you charitably give her the benefit of the doubt that she is not fully aware of the sanctity of life at conception as you are and pray for her conversion. I just don’t see how talking about how much you dislike her on a message board with mainly like-minded individuals is accomplishing anything.

I have spent nearly 3 decades active in the pro-life movement invcluding counsleing pregnant women , parents and boyfriends in a CPC. Other than make excuses for those who support this abject evil and criticize those of us trying to stop it what do you do to help bring aborion to an end.?

 

[Thomas_B]

I have spent nearly 3 decades active in the pro-life movement invcluding counsleing pregnant women , parents and boyfriends in a CPC. Other than make excuses for those who support this abject evil and criticize those of us trying to stop it what do you do to help bring aborion to an end.?

I commend and congratulate you for that work Estesbob, that is a beautiful thing that you are doing for these women who desperately need your help and the unborn. I’m sure that the Lord greatly loves the work you do in this ministry.

Regarding myself, I lead a Catholic Young Adults group and our group has a pro-life ministry that raises money for pro-life causes, sponsors pro-life speakers, prays outside of abortion clinics, and volunteers at Life Centers. We also get volunteers to get signatures for pro-life initiatives and man phone banks to inform potential voters about the petitions once they are on the ballot. For instance, in California for the November election there is a parental notification measure that we are actively supporting and publicizing.

I’ve never criticized or questioned your commitment to pro-life, my only question is what good does it do to slam people who are pro-choice- that isn’t going to cause them to change or bring an end to abortion. Hate abortion, yes, but at the same time pray for those who may be misguided and not know the full truth. That is not making excuses for anyone, that is actively working toward their conversion and helping to bring about an end to abortion through the grace of God through prayer. Hate accomplishes nothing, but the love of God and His divine mercy and grace will prevail in the end.

 

[Abitreckless]

Meanwhile the abortion groups still support her.

If only Hillary were sincere, it would be a wonderful thing. Prayers for Hillary, friends.

 

[Jennifer123]

When I was talking about the question of when life begins, I mean when a person gains self-awareness. That seems to be the crux of the debate for many pro-choice people I know. They seem to think that prior to a certain point in the pregancy, an individual doesn’t have self-awareness and therefore you are not killing a person, but a bunch of cells.

So when do babies achieve self-awareness? From what I know, babies even as young as a few months out of the womb are still unaware they are a separate entity from the mother.

You probably know this since you are a pro-life advocate, but I think this is an argument we can show to be false and irrational unless the pro-choicer also is okay with infantcide. Believe me, they are out there.

 

[Jerome42]

Are you being judgmental?

IT’S ABOUT TIME SOMEONE STARTS GETTING JUDGEMENTAL ! We all need to wake up! We are talking about a pro-abortion Senator who seems to be doing the devil’s work.

To make matters worse we are using the secularist media’s own description of the matter, ie. 'Hillary is sporting a ‘cross’. What an insult. The fact of the matter is that she is trying to masquerade as a Christian, even if she has to wear a Crucifix to get the point across.

THIS IS A WAKE UP CALL !

 

[Thomas_B]

So when do babies achieve self-awareness? From what I know, babies even as young as a few months out of the womb are still unaware they are a separate entity from the mother.

You probably know this since you are a pro-life advocate, but I think this is an argument we can show to be false and irrational unless the pro-choicer also is okay with infantcide. Believe me, they are out there.

Well, I know one standard some try to use is the ability of a being to react to stimuli- hot, cold, prodding, light etc. I think its a silly standard. Just because we can’t visibly see a reaction, or neural transmissions on a chart, doesn’t mean that a fertilized egg or fetus doesn’t have consciousness or a soul. It is very sad, but this is the standard that some in the pro-choice movement use. If only they knew the truth.

 

[Bella3502]

IT’S ABOUT TIME SOMEONE STARTS GETTING JUDGEMENTAL ! We all need to wake up! We are talking about a pro-abortion Senator who seems to be doing the devil’s work.

To make matters worse we are using the secularist media’s own description of the matter, ie. 'Hillary is sporting a ‘cross’. What an insult. The fact of the matter is that she is trying to masquerade as a Christian, even if she has to wear a Crucifix to get the point across.

THIS IS A WAKE UP CALL !

What about our pro-abortion President???

 

[He_Man]

What about our pro-abortion President???

Assuming you view their stances the same (which they clearly are not, as every Pro-life priest will tell you), I assume you despise both Hillary and Bush’s platforms equally, then? I assume you then vote for neither platform? That seems to be the implication when you change the topic to someone else’s politics.

As long as you are consistent in your not voting for either…

 

[rlg94086]

Just don’t judge anyone’s judgmentalism.

IT’S ABOUT TIME SOMEONE STARTS GETTING JUDGEMENTAL ! We all need to wake up! We are talking about a pro-abortion Senator who seems to be doing the devil’s work.

To make matters worse we are using the secularist media’s own description of the matter, ie. 'Hillary is sporting a ‘cross’. What an insult. The fact of the matter is that she is trying to masquerade as a Christian, even if she has to wear a Crucifix to get the point across.

THIS IS A WAKE UP CALL !

 

[JamesG]

Assuming you view their stances the same (which they clearly are not, as every Pro-life priest will tell you), I assume you despise both Hillary and Bush’s platforms equally, then? I assume you then vote for neither platform? That seems to be the implication when you change the topic to someone else’s politics.

As long as you are consistent in your not voting for either…

It is a matter of voting for the lessor evil and voting from a catholic perspective. Abortion is such a great evil that anyone who is catholic can’t vote for her. There are far too many abortion groups that support her and the evidence of her support of abortion is clear

I am and always have been pro-choice, and that is not a right any of should take for granted. There are a number of forces at work in our society that would try to turn back the clock and undermine a woman’s right to chose, and [we] must remain vigilant

…
**Voted NO on criminal penalty for harming unborn fetus during other crime. **
"Bill would make it a criminal offense to harm or kill a fetus during the commission of a violent crime. The measure would set criminal penalties, the same as those that would apply if harm or death happened to the pregnant woman, for those who harm a fetus. It is not required that the individual have prior knowledge of the pregnancy or intent to harm the fetus. This bill prohibits the death penalty from being imposed for such an offense. The bill states that its provisions should not be interpreted to apply a woman’s actions with respect to her pregnancy. "

**Voted NO on banning partial birth abortions except for maternal life. **

"
S. 3 As Amended; Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003. Vote to pass a bill banning a medical procedure, which is commonly known as “partial-birth” abortion. Those who performed this procedure would then face fines and up to two years in prison, the women to whom this procedure is performed on are not held criminally liable. This bill would make the exception for cases in which a women’s life is in danger, not for cases where a women’s health is in danger. "

**Clinton scores 100% by NARAL on pro-choice voting record **
For over thirty years, NARAL Pro-Choice America has been the political arm of the pro-choice movement and a strong advocate of reproductive freedom and choice. NARAL Pro-Choice America’s mission is to protect and preserve the right to choose while promoting policies and programs that improve women’s health and make abortion less necessary. NARAL Pro-Choice America works to educate Americans and officeholders about reproductive rights and health issues and elect pro-choice candidates at all levels of government. The NARAL ratings are based on the votes the organization considered most important; the numbers reflect the percentage of time the representative voted the organization’s preferred position.

I agree with those who say that Hillary is trying to make everyone who is a Christian wonder about what she stands for.

Anyone who supports this woman doesn’t have a heart for un born children or any level of respect for the gift of creation.

 

[josephdavid]

1.2 million dead children a year. Now tell me what is NOT wrong AND evil about that. This is not just another poltical dispute-we are talking the most abject evil to posess a society EVER. There simply is no way to minimze or rationalize this evil. If pointing this out again and again and again makes me a “basher” I proudly wear the label.

So Bob it is not ok to kill 1.2 million unborn children each year but it is perfectly ok to kill a few hundred thousand innocent Iraqi women and children or keep millions of women and children from having adequate healthcare? Is this your stance?

Also can you walk on water?

 

[josephdavid]

Anyone who supports this woman doesn’t have a heart for un born children or any level of respect for the gift of creation.

Did you know that George Bush is ok with abortion in some cases? Ok with birth control?

 

[Al_Masetti]

Madonna has apparently just said she’s sorry about misusing the Cross.

nypost.com/seven/10202006/gossip/pagesix/pagesix.htm

 

[He_Man]

It is a matter of voting for the lessor evil and voting from a catholic perspective. Abortion is such a great evil that anyone who is catholic can’t vote for her. There are far too many abortion groups that support her and the evidence of her support of abortion is clear

I agree with those who say that Hillary is trying to make everyone who is a Christian wonder about what she stands for.

Anyone who supports this woman doesn’t have a heart for un born children or any level of respect for the gift of creation.

Oh don’t get me wrong, I think Hillary is a lecherous shrew of a woman, and could never vote for her, but I was wondering how Bella could compare her abortion stances to Bush’s. You simply cannot do it. I just thought it was a dodge of the issue of Hillary rather than a defense.

And for the millionth time on here, you cannot compare the loss of Iraqis or Americans in war to abortion. The church clearly says we can’t, and I assume people bring it up over and over because it makes them feel better about voting for someone they shouldn’t.

Just because you repeat something doesn’t make it true.

 

[estesbob]

So Bob it is not ok to kill 1.2 million unborn children each year but it is perfectly ok to kill a few hundred thousand innocent Iraqi women and children or keep millions of women and children from having adequate healthcare? Is this your stance?

Also can you walk on water?

I see you are now constructing still another strawman to try and divert attention from the fact that you support the abortionists.

The Church says that abortion and ones opinion on the war or other social issues are not on the same moral plain. You, in direct contradiction to Our Church’s teachings, have put you political views ahead of our Faith. Thats sad. But then when one supports , as you do, the killing of 1.2 million children a year all sorts of rationalizations are needed.

 

[estesbob]

Did you know that George Bush is ok with abortion in some cases? Ok with birth control?

Fortunately, for those of us who accept the teachings of the Church, the choice is easy. We have a president who believes that abortion is acceptable ONLY in the cases of rape and incest and believes contraception should be legal. He opposes cloning and embryonic stem cell research except in cases of a very few stem cell lines established BEFORE he issued his executive order.

In the past two elections he has ran against candidates who believes in taxpayer funded abortions up until the point the child’s head fully exits the womb, that experimantion of unborn children is acceptable and believe Contraception should be legal.

Looking at this scenario the Church says you go with the candidate who is most supportive of life. It really is not all that complicated-except for those looking for an excuse to vote for the abortionists.