Hindus Worship at Fatima Altar

[Marie]

Domini Canis:

Mare,

Since I haven’t heard that particular interview, I can’t say. I have seen and listened to some of his programs though; and know of nothing that would make me believe he was “the devil’s agent” or heretical…His main message is about Fatima and its relation to the current crisis in the world and in the Church.

Exactly what did he say in the interview that made you go so far as to say he was the devil’s agent?

Miguel.

He said Sr Lucia was not allowed to tell the truth and she has to lie due to obedience. Now that’s a bell ringer if ever I heard one from the Devils mouth. Gruner, who is the epitome of disobedience to his superiors had the audacity to say Sr Lucia is lying to please the Pope. Good grief! She spends her entire life living the Gospel of Life and her vocation and is the Seer of Fatima and Gruner says she lies!

The devil speaks just enough truth to hook the unaware souls and then delivers the poison under their radar. My radar is not impaired. I follow the Church in obedience. Gruner distains obedience at every turn. Softly spoken and wily words to be sure but poison is poison and that is how the devil operates.

 

[Marie]

Domini Canis:

So will I; as soon as this thing gets clarified from Rome and the actual seer.

Actualy things have been clarified over and over. Gruner keep denying he is suspended…he is. I believe my Bishop should know and he specificaly said so…yet Gruner denied it on live radio which I heard.

Sr Lucia says Gruner is NOT correct. Then Gruner says she lies under obedience. Again, not exactly someone who is the epitomy of obedience and he calls her a liar? Thats a sick man at the very least that your supporting I must say.

I doubt you would believe the Pope or Sr Lucia even if you spoke to them in person at this point. You seem desperate to want to support Gruner and quick to discount Sr Lucia and the Vatican just so Gruners twisted version of Fatima can continue to be held up as something believable.

 

[Karl_Keating]

Gruner’s apostolate is built around the thesis that Russia has not been consecrated to Mary. Sister Lucia says the Holy Father has accomplished that consecration. Gruner’s camp replies that she is either (a) mistaken, (b) misrepresented by those who translate her remarks, (c) lying under obedience.

There seems to be ample evidence that her ideas have been transmitted accurately, and that takes care of both (a) and (b). That leaves (c), which, ironically, puts Gruner in a spot.

If Sister Lucia lies today, as a matter of obedience, what reason does anyone have to think she did not lie, under obedience, when she said she received the message about the consecration? If she is unreliable today, why should anyone think she was reliable decades ago?

Gruner’s apostolate and “Catholic Family News” (which he owns) forever talk about conspiracies to silence the “real” message of Fatima. It is a message that John Paul II either does not know or wishes to hide from the world. It is a message that dark figures in the Vatican try to subvert. It is a message that Sister Lucia herself can’t seem to get straight.

So this pope, who has such a devotion to Fatima, either is deluded about it or is trying to misrepresent it. Ditto for those who work for him. Ditto for the last suriving seer. Only Gruner has the guts to tell it as it is.

But there’s another angle. Let’s say the 1984 consecration undertaken by John Paul II met the requirements. What would happen to Gruner’s apostolate if that were admitted? His mailing list has been developed by pushing the idea that the consecration didn’t “take.” What if he told his followers that it had?

In one word: Poof!

 

[Marie]

Karl Keating:

Gruner’s apostolate is built around the thesis that Russia has not been consecrated to Mary. Sister Lucia says the Holy Father has accomplished that consecration. Gruner’s camp replies that she is either (a) mistaken, (b) misrepresented by those who translate her remarks, (c) lying under obedience.

But there’s another angle. Let’s say the 1984 consecration undertaken by John Paul II met the requirements. What would happen to Gruner’s apostolate if that were admitted? His mailing list has been developed by pushing the idea that the consecration didn’t “take.” What if he told his followers that it had?

In one word: Poof!

Thank you Karl. My thoughts exactly…POOF! Gruner is struggling hard to keep that from happening as most of us can tell. I wish it would go poof. He is leading many souls to disobedience and that is not Fatima’s message.

 

[Domini_Canis]

Mare,

If Fr. Gruner did in fact say that Sr. Lucia is lying under obedience then I would have to disagree with him on that one; I don’t believe that jives with what we know about the good nun so I’m more inclined to believe she was misrepresented.

You can believe that Fr. Gruner is the epitome of disobedience, a tool of the devil, a heretic and an apostate (like DV believes) and any other harsh thing you can think of him; but his suspension was due to his not returning to his diocese when ordered. Let’s at least get that out in the air.

You can also speak of obedience to the Pope and to higher authority all you want and that’s fine; but the issue I’m primarily responding to is Fatima, the message and the interfaith shrine. Fr. Gruner’s canonical status and the other stuff are secondary issues that inevitably comes up with this subject.

We should pray that his situation get’s fixed and that he will come to good terms with Rome.

Miguel.

 

[Domini_Canis]

Karl,

I believe the evidence about option “b” is highly disputed and the comments that she made in the past (about how Russia must be mentioned by name) don’t exactly square with the one’s she is supposedly making now.

I don’t know if the Pope or Sr. Lucia have come right out publicly saying that Russia has been consecrated and therefore it must be believed; all that I’ve seen are interviews and statements which if taken at face value, would seem to contradict a lot of things said by these two in the past…Which would raise more questions.

Your last comment seems to imply that the main purpose of his insistence on Russia’s consecration is so that his apostolate might live on and survive. Now I don’t know what Fr. Gruner’s intentions are, but his Fatima apostolate can certainly survive if our Lady’s message was fulfilled. Fr. Fox’s apostolate seems to be a good testimony to that fact. So I don’t think we need to imply here (like Fr. Fox did on EWTN Live) that Fr. Gruner has some secret hidden motives about his asking for money and insistence on Russia’s consecration not being done. I assume non of us here can read hearts…

Whatever you guys want to believe about Fatima; it is ultimately a private revelation, meaning that you don’t have to believe it in the first place. Catholics are free to make up their minds about this without any consequences to their loyalty to the Church.

Can we at least agree on that fact?

Miguel.

 

[Marie]

Domini Canis:

Mare,

If Fr. Gruner did in fact say that Sr. Lucia is lying under obedience then I would have to disagree with him on that one; I don’t believe that jives with what we know about the good nun so I’m more inclined to believe she was misrepresented.

You can believe that Fr. Gruner is the epitome of disobedience, a tool of the devil, a heretic and an apostate (like DV believes) and any other harsh thing you can think of him; but his suspension was due to his not returning to his diocese when ordered. Let’s at least get that out in the air.

You can also speak of obedience to the Pope and to higher authority all you want and that’s fine; but the issue I’m primarily responding to is Fatima, the message and the interfaith shrine. Fr. Gruner’s canonical status and the other stuff are secondary issues that inevitably comes up with this subject.

We should pray that his situation get’s fixed and that he will come to good terms with Rome.

Miguel.

Hardly secondary Miguel,

The church and the Pope have spoken. We are obligated to comply and not follow Gruners apostolate.

13-Sep-2001 – Vatican Information Service

CONGREGATION ISSUES DECLARATION ON SUSPENDED PRIEST

Church warns against supporting Gruner’s various ministries

VATICAN CITY, SEP 13, 2001 (VIS) - The following declaration was released yesterday afternoon by the Congregation for the Clergy. It was signed by Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, congregation prefect, and by Archbishop Csaba Ternyak, secretary.

"The Holy See has received several news reports concerning the so-called Conference for Peace in the World, which is being planned for Rome for October 7 to 13 and which has been organized by Fr. Nicholas Gruner of Canada.

"The Congregation for the Clergy, upon the mandate from a higher authority, wishes to state that Rev. Nicholas Gruner is under an ‘a divinis’ suspension, which has been confirmed by a definitive sentence of the Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signature.

“The activities of Fr. Gruner, therefore, including the above-mentioned conference, do not have the approval of legitimate ecclesiastical authorities.” CPC/DECLARATION/CASTRILLON HOYOS VIS 20010913 (140)

I think that states quite clearly that Rome has spoken.

There are more issues about Gruner which raise the red flag too and they are well documented.Fr. Nicholas Gruner, has worked in close union with the signers of the schismatic manifesto We Resist [the Pope] to the Face, Atila Guimaraes, John Vennari, Michael Matt, Marian Horvat. Nicholas has also worked closely with Chris Ferrara, an attorney and apologist for the schismatic four and apologist and writer for Gruner. Gruner has long been in opposition to the Vatican, positing various conspiracy theories regarding the Third Secret of Fatima. Sr. Lucy, the last living of the three Fatima seers, repudiated Gruner’s views according to Church officials. That should be more than enough information about this disobedient priest to any Catholic who wish’s to follow God and His true Apostles.

Whatever you guys want to believe about Fatima; it is ultimately a private revelation, meaning that you don’t have to believe it in the first place. Catholics are free to make up their minds about this without any consequences to their loyalty to the Church.

Can we at least agree on that fact?

Miguel.

Actually I would agree it is a private revelation and we are free to make up our minds about believing it or not…but I do not believe that means we have the option to follow a lunatic who is not and never was a seer for the Approved Fatima apparitions as the above concern by the Vatican states. So, yes we are free to believe or disbelieve Fatima…we are not free to believe or follow Gruner.

Pax,
Marie

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Can we at least agree on that fact?

Yes; but I only speak for myself.

 

[Marie]

DominvsVobiscvm:

Yes; but I only speak for myself.

But the Vatican still states Gruner is not Fatima and ipso defacto…there is a difference.

13-Sep-2001 – Vatican Information Service

CONGREGATION ISSUES DECLARATION ON SUSPENDED PRIEST

Church warns against supporting Gruner’s various ministries

VATICAN CITY, SEP 13, 2001 (VIS) - The following declaration was released yesterday afternoon by the Congregation for the Clergy. It was signed by Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, congregation prefect, and by Archbishop Csaba Ternyak, secretary.

"The Holy See has received several news reports concerning the so-called Conference for Peace in the World, which is being planned for Rome for October 7 to 13 and which has been organized by Fr. Nicholas Gruner of Canada.

"The Congregation for the Clergy, upon the mandate from a higher authority, wishes to state that Rev. Nicholas Gruner is under an ‘a divinis’ suspension, which has been confirmed by a definitive sentence of the Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signature.

“The activities of Fr. Gruner, therefore, including the above-mentioned conference, do not have the approval of legitimate ecclesiastical authorities.” CPC/DECLARATION/CASTRILLON HOYOS VIS 20010913 (140)

I agree it is a private revelation and we are free to make up our minds about believing it or not…but I do not believe that means we have the option to follow a lunatic who is not and never was a seer for the Approved Fatima apparitions. So, yes we are free to believe or disbelieve Fatima…we are not free to believe or follow Gruner.

Pax,
Marie

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Marie,

I coud not have put it better myself!

I don’t know about you, but I have no qualms going out with an older woman!

 

[Domini_Canis]

Mare; I don’t know how I can make it any clearer to you…

Let me ask you then this simple question, why was he suspended? Hint, it was not because he convoked a conference (canon law doesn’t require one to obtain approval for that); and it wasn’t because of any of his teaching on Fatima.

Father’s canonical status is a secondary issue— at least for me any way’s and the truth about Fatima doesn’t hinge on the say so of this priest.

You might find it surprising, but I don’t support Fr. Gruner and his apostolate with money and I don’t agree on how he is going about his suspension. What I do agree on, is his stance on Fatima (which all Catholics can take without necessarily following this group).

As I said, we should pray for this priest and that he gets his situation with the Church fixed. And I don’t think anyone here would wish a priest of God to live on and die in the state of being suspended by His Church.

Miguel.

 

[Marie]

DominvsVobiscvm:

Marie,

I coud not have put it better myself!

I don’t know about you, but I have no qualms going out with an older woman!

You must be interested in antiques then…

 

[JimmyJoe]

Father Gruner is here in our diocese today and saying Mass at the SSPX chapel and giving a talk.

That says it all right there about Fr. Gruner.

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Let me ask you then this simple question, why was he suspended? Hint, it was not because he convoked a conference (canon law doesn’t require one to obtain approval for that); and it wasn’t because of any of his teaching on Fatima.

So what? If anything, this is even worse; it proves too much.

A person can commit heresy out of ignorance. Willful disobedience by an ordained cleric is different; he should know better.

While you are correct that Fatima is a private revelation, I think a spirit of charity and obedience (that mother of religious virtues) would move us to give the Fatima Seer, and most efinitely the Holy Father, the benefit of the doubt. Don’t you?

 

[Marie]

JimmyJoe:

That says it all right there about Fr. Gruner.

Yes it pretty much does. He is defiant and outside of the Apostolic church working for the enemy…not God.

 

[Domini_Canis]

DominvsVobiscvm:

So what? If anything, this is even worse; it proves too much.

A person can commit heresy out of ignorance. Willful disobedience by an ordained cleric is different; he should know better.

While you are correct that Fatima is a private revelation, I think a spirit of charity and obedience (that mother of religious virtues) would move us to give the Fatima Seer, and most efinitely the Holy Father, the benefit of the doubt. Don’t you?

Care to actually answer the question? I’m not here to defend the virtues and vices of this priest. I’m asking for a simple answer; what was the reason for his suspension?

Miguel.

 

[EUSTACHIUS]

Private revelation? 70,000 people witnessed the Miracle of the Sun. Every Pope since has called it believable.

You all forget, Our Lady asked for two things; “To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays. If My requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace;” Our Lady also promised Sr. Lucia that she would be taken to Heaven, but she first had work to do.

After Our Lady appeared to Juan Diego 6 million Indians converted to the Faith in few short years.

Now if 1984 consecration was valid answer these questions:

1. Why has Russia still not been converted? I know what you will say that the Soviet Union fell apart, but this is not conversion.
2. Why is the Church still persecuted by the Russian Government?
3. Why is Russia in such a horrible state?
4. Why is the world in such a dangerous state?
5. Sr. Lucia is 97 years old, why has Our Lord not brought Sr. Lucia to Heaven?

There are only two possible answers:

1. The Consecration still has not properly been performed and neither has the Communion of Reparation been promoted.
2. or the Communion of Reparation has not been promoted.

Again, I encourage you all to perform the Communion of Reparation, the First Five Saturday Devotion. No matter what the state of the Consecration, we still have to do our part!

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Father Gruner, after he began preaching against the Holy Father and Sister Lucia, was ordered by his bishop to return to hid diocese; he was warned that he would be suspended if he refused.

He refused anyway.

As I said, heresy is one thing. Even a Father of the Church can commit it out of ignorance. Willful disobedience to one’s lawful superior is far worse.

In Gruner’s defense, he was only re-echoing the disobedience of his own spiritual father: “Non serviam!”

 

[Domini_Canis]

Good. That’s clear…He was not suspended for his teachings on Fatima or heresy.

Mare, agreed?

Miguel.

 

[Wolseley]

No Catholic is required to believe in Fatima, or any other Marian apparition.

They fall under the heading of devotions, meaning that while the Church may declare they are worthy of belief, there is still no requirement to believe in them.