Hispanic bishops letter offers sympathy to illegal immigrants

[Yerusalyim]

How about calling these people “illegals”.

Last time I checked a dictionary illegal was an adjective.

That’s not treating them as pariah…that’s what they are…illegal immigrants…as oppossed to my wife who is a LEGAL immigrant.

Being in the United States illegally is not legal…ergo, every day an ILLEGAL immigrant is here they are breaking the law…not to mention when they work without legal authorization…or drive without a license…etc etc etc.

pariah…despised or avoided. I don’t despise nor avoid illegal immigrants. Calling them what they are is not the same as treating them as pariah.

 

[Tigg]

You need to read the social justice documents from the church issued by various popes, the first over 100 years ago and updated about each 30-40 years.
The document recognize a nations soverenty and right to regulate it’s borders, in a HUMAN way, respecting the rights of the individual. They are also very pointed that rich nations have a moral obligation to help poor nations. Also that every person has the right to make a livable wage to support their family. a right to affordable health care services, a right to freely practice their faith, a right to live without oppression, a right to have a decent place to live, as a family wihtout fear of persecution just to name a few. These are the teachings of the Catholic Church.

I’m quite familiar with the social justice encyclicals and also the fact that in more recent years a political ideology has distorted authentic Catholic teaching and is oftentimes inconsistent with previous papal documents. All manner of evil is now being committed by groups touting equality, love of brother, diversity and tolerance under a banner of so-called social justice teaching.

Do a search on the fact about immigration, it may be on USCCB site. You will find that these statements are for the most part false, and are political red meat. Such statements also fail to recongize our Catholic responsibilty to our brothers and sisters

As we know what our responsibilities are to our brother, there is no dispute about that. What you fail to realize is that it is a matter of right judgment how we can best meet those obligations. We are not bound in conscience to follow the *political *advice given by bishops which may be confused by some as a religious obligation, when in fact it is a political choice which should be governed by prudence. There is even room for much debate (we’ll need another thread for this) on whether or not the USCCB has reinterpreted the writings of previous popes, which in actuality would be beyond their scope of authority as a bureaucratic body which has no teaching mission in and of themselves. See JP II (Motu Proprio) Apostolos Suos.

 

[pismopal]

I render to God what is God’s…I sympathize with all immigrants…legal and otherwise and I render to Caesar what is Caesar’s…the right of a country to have secure borders and to determine who crosses that border.

 

[elizabethofport]

Please brush up on how Americans acquired their land. If you look at maps and see how this country formed over time, you would be much more sympathetic to those who are not “American”. mappinghistory.uoregon.edu/english/US/US09-01.html and historyguy.com/Mexican-American_War.html

I myself consider myself a child of God first and it is always above all other titles. After all, it is the title that will last into eternity, not the identity of Japanese, Russian or American.

I’ll give illegal immigrants thanks when they realize they are criminals and quit breaking the law.

 

[Yerusalyim]

Elizabeth,

What’s your point about how the country was formed? Should we give all the land back to the native Americans? The American west is American…fair and square, either through purchase or right of conquest from just wars. But the biggest question I have for you is what does this old history have to do with modern issues of immigration? Those crossing the US border illegally are not doing so because of some inherent attachment to it as a homeland (after all, the Spanish were also immigrants that took land from Native Americans by force)…they are coming here because they have a better opportunity to make a good life in the US than they do in Mexico…or the Czech Republic…or where ever they’re coming from. The problem is they’re doing it without going through the legal process.

 

[FAB]

The statements are in no way false. Illegal aliens take jobs that Americans WILL DO…Illegal aliens use services they don’t pay for…ask any California emergency room…and some of them are very violent criminals…look at court records. HOW does this statement in anyway recognize responsibility as a Christian or a Catholic. It’s HIGHLY responsible to insist these people FOLLOW THE LAW. As the husband of a woman that entered this country legally, I’ve done a lot of research into this issue…I recommend you do the same…without the agenda lenses.

By not enforcing our immigration law for years we have in fact invited them to come. So all the ills that speak, we share the blame, and we also share the responsibility for their lives.
I have researched the issue.
They take jobs at less than min wage because employers fail to pay a living wage or benefits, which means when ill they have no place to go except the emergency room. I agree there is a criminal element, the same has been true for every immigration group.
As far as FOLLOW THE LAW, the same was said during segregation to keep an entire race on their place, the same is now happening with these immigrants. They are suffering from a form of slavery. Perhaps you need to stop listening to political agendas. My only agenda is that of Christ: the welcome the stranger among us, fees the hungry, house the homeless, insure His given rights to all.

Peace,
Deacon FAB

 

[FAB]

We are not bound in conscience to follow the *political *advice given by bishops which may be confused by some as a religious obligation, when in fact it is a political choice which should be governed by prudence. .

This is were you are wrong. The bishops are not giving “political” advice the are recognizing human rights as given by God. These were are bound by conscience to follow.
It is time we took the politics out and looked at the human cost. Don’t forget the Church is Universal, not just for a single country.

Peace,
Deacon FAB

 

[Warrenton]

haven’t updated my profile, I’ve been back in the US for two years now…so I don’t need a civics lecture from you

More of a law lecture, really. And I’ll take you at your word you didn’t need it.

…I’m well aware of why Arizona is bein sued. If the Federal government didn’t enforce any immigration laws you MIGHT have a case. The problem is that the government SELECTIVELY enforces the law.

Ok, well let’s agree that they’ve failed to enforce at least between 13 and 20 million cases then.

They still get an F minus for the money they are asking for the task.

It’s not a mere matter of crossing the border…every day an illegal is here they are breaking the law…taking jobs…using services that taxpayers flip the bill for…and some are violent criminals on top of that

You are simply incorrect. The crime is illegal entry. Look it up. They cannot be charged for each day they are here.

Some take jobs, some don’t. I haven’t seen any citizen pickers in the fields since I was a kid.
They do pay taxes, by the way. They pay withholdings, sales taxes, and the IRS will give them a tax id number to file a return, no questions asked.

More citizens are violent criminals than non citizens, and there is no correlation to being a violent criminal and an immigrant. That’s a red herring.

But of course, since you didn’t need the lecutre, you knew all that. Which means your post was just knowingly false.

 

[Warrenton]

The American west is American…fair and square, either through purchase or right of conquest from just wars.

 

[Tigg]

This is were you are wrong. The bishops are not giving “political” advice the are recognizing human rights as given by God. These were are bound by conscience to follow.

No, the bishops are advising Congress to pass an amnesty in the name of “comprehensive immigration reform.” Which means changing the legislation of this country and the law of the land. This IS political! Please direct me to the authentic Church teaching that says an illegal immigrant (the techincal term by law is “alien”) may break the law of a host country, endanger their family in the process, and then, according to you, by their “God-given” right expect to become a citizen. And while we’re at it, please explain to me how their God-given rights are not being extended to them in Mexico. Granted, that government is not as free with benefits as the U.S., but their unemployment rate was actually lower than ours the last time I looked. Neither are they being politically or religiously oppressed or persecuted or need to flee their homeland for fear of their lives.

It is time we took the politics out and looked at the human cost. Don’t forget the Church is Universal, not just for a single country.

This I can agree with. I pray that our bishops turn their attention to the primary mission of the Church - to save souls!! I often wonder how the spiritual needs of the illegal “immigrants” in this country are being met. The bishops are lobbying for their secular needs and even this is suspicious depending upon the reasons they are entering this country. According to reports, many are young, able-bodied men who have left jobs in Mexico to take higher paying jobs here and to receive free health care and other benefits at the cost to the American taxpayer. Social justice??? Hardly!!

I also question why the bishops do not factor in the consequences of the many injustices being done to God’s people born in this country.

 

[FAB]

No, the bishops are advising Congress to pass an amnesty in the name of “comprehensive immigration reform.” Which means changing the legislation of this country and the law of the land. This IS political! Please direct me to the authentic Church teaching that says an illegal immigrant (the techincal term by law is “alien”) may break the law of a host country, endanger their family in the process, and then, according to you, by their “God-given” right expect to become a citizen. And while we’re at it, please explain to me how their God-given rights are not being extended to them in Mexico. Granted, that government is not as free with benefits as the U.S., but their unemployment rate was actually lower than ours the last time I looked. Neither are they being politically or religiously oppressed or persecuted or need to flee their homeland for fear of their lives.

This I can agree with. I pray that our bishops turn their attention to the primary mission of the Church - to save souls!! I often wonder how the spiritual needs of the illegal “immigrants” in this country are being met. The bishops are lobbying for their secular needs and even this is suspicious depending upon the reasons they are entering this country. According to reports, many are young, able-bodied men who have left jobs in Mexico to take higher paying jobs here and to receive free health care and other benefits at the cost to the American taxpayer. Social justice??? Hardly!!

I also question why the bishops do not factor in the consequences of the many injustices being done to God’s people born in this country.

Immigrants don’t have souls? Spiritula need? part of carring for these is to help insure thry are treated faily and properly, that their rights are respected.
Politacal issues usuall mean the group lobbying has something the gain. THe Catholic bishops have nothing to gain, the same as lobbying for pro-life issues, it comes down only to protectiong all individual’s rights from natural birth to natural death.
The so called cost to tax payers has been proven by many studies to be false.
Aso, what injustices are done to native born? I am, I have never had an injustice from a immigrant.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I thought it important to point out that Bishops are not necessarily infallible, yet by conscience we are bound to follow their teachings unless our conscience truly shows that the teaching is wrong. However, that’s a pretty sticky topic since Bishops misinterpreted the “moral conscience” in the matter of ABC, contrary to the true teachings of the Pope and Magisterium.

However, my point is that until proven otherwise I take the Bishops at their word. This is why I think that those who have access to the media, must be more cautious before interpreting or misinterpreting the intention of the Bishops in issuing this statement.

Our politicians and those who are publicly interviewed by the media as some “expert” should not be using a Bishops letter for fair treatment as a means to bash Catholics. Recruitment was a poor choice of words and words have power. Mehlman, is in a better to position to reach more people and should choose his words more carefully. It was more Catholic bashing.

Actually we are only bound to follow the bishop who is our ordinary. We are not bound to follow any other bishop. That is except for the bishop of Rome.

 

[elizabethofport]

Elizabeth,

What’s your point about how the country was formed? Should we give all the land back to the native Americans? The American west is American…fair and square, either through purchase or right of conquest from just wars. But the biggest question I have for you is what does this old history have to do with modern issues of immigration? Those crossing the US border illegally are not doing so because of some inherent attachment to it as a homeland (after all, the Spanish were also immigrants that took land from Native Americans by force)…they are coming here because they have a better opportunity to make a good life in the US than they do in Mexico…or the Czech Republic…or where ever they’re coming from. The problem is they’re doing it without going through the legal process.

Just because the land was taken years ago doesn’t mean it’s not pertinent. If we just stop for a moment and realize that the ENTIRE earth is God’s to freely give, then who are we to act so childish? We are ALL from the same family. The Bible says “There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal 3:28)

 

[Tigg]

Just because the land was taken years ago doesn’t mean it’s not pertinent. If we just stop for a moment and realize that the ENTIRE earth is God’s to freely give, then who are we to act so childish? We are ALL from the same family. The Bible says “There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal 3:28)

The open border advocates and those who tout a global “one-worldism” seem to think that a national status which protects one’s own citizens and boundaries is somehow wrong. What a distorted picture of Christianity! While it’s true that the commonwealth of nations should be shared as much as possible with the less fortunate, it doesn’t mean there is justification for annihilating one culture/country over another.

You know, from the OT to the New, the Bible has much to say about the entity of nations.

When the Most High assigned the nations their heritage, when he parceled out the descendants of Adam, He set up the boundaries of the peoples…
Deut 32:8

From one stock he made every nation of mankind to dwell on the face of the earth. It is He who set limits to their epochs and fixed the boundaries of their regions……Acts 17:26

Even in Revelation, after the New Jerusalem and the world as we know it has been remade, “the nations of them will walk in the light of it (the glory of God) and the kings of the earth shall bring their treasures.” (Chap 21)

And let‘s not forget what happened in Babel when humankind in their pride tried to construct a tower of universality - a multicultural society, or utopia, a social re-construction if you will, which God dispersed.

It is a warped view that would deny this country protection from the negative impacts of illegal immigration or grant yet another amnesty to the point that in our bankrupt state, we will see our own poor become even more destitute and our middle class unable to freely and individually practice true charity because what was once ours, was taken away by the state. And how is it that the majority of our resources and wealth will go to one country only which is not the poorest or most in need, not to the truly starving or homeless, nor to the persecuted exiles. imo, it is a picture of progressive, liberal political imprudence which will only worsen.

 

[FAB]

Actually we are only bound to follow the bishop who is our ordinary. We are not bound to follow any other bishop. That is except for the bishop of Rome.

I would suggest that your ordinary agrees with these bishops, and that these bishops are acting as spokesmen for the entire conference.

 

[FAB]

It is a warped view that would deny this country protection from the negative impacts of illegal immigration or grant yet another amnesty to the point that in our bankrupt state

,
It is also warped to deny the bennifits that every social econmic group gets frm the labor of these immagrants. The turkey, ham or chicken that you had on your Chritmas table got there through this immigrant labor. The benifits they recieve from the state are small in comparison to the contibution given by holding prices down.

we will see our own poor become even more destitute and our middle class unable to freely and individually practice true charity because what was once ours, was taken away by the state

.
This has nothing to do with immigrants. The taxes you pay are not going to them. They are more lickly to be going to goverment unions and pie in the sky projects, but not to these people.

And how is it that the majority of our resources and wealth will go to one country only which is not the poorest or most in need, not to the truly starving or homeless, nor to the persecuted exiles

.

The majority of our resourses do not go to a single county. the issues is that much of our forgien aid that does go to poor countries end up in the hands of cooorupt officials and never to help the ones most in need. Perhaps you need to go into the county side of Mexico or any other south american county, there you will see the truely poor. these poor are the ones coming here looking for work. There are two classes in these countries the rich and the poor, and the rich do very little for the poor.

 

[Tigg]

,
It is also warped to deny the bennifits that every social econmic group gets frm the labor of these immagrants. The turkey, ham or chicken that you had on your Chritmas table got there through this immigrant labor. The benifits they recieve from the state are small in comparison to the contibution given by holding prices down.

Yeah, I’m pretty sure our turkey came from one of the poultry houses that hires illegal immigrants - you know, the processing plants that laid off American workers who are **also **below the poverty level and unskilled, and have families to feed, or the black community that used to depend upon the benefits they paid, but who no longer even have jobs. Now those companies can really depress the wages of legal workers while inflating their profit.

Did you know that the illegal immigrant community has virtually taken over certain industries like the hotel/motel (maid) business (which used to be one of the biggest employers of blacks,) janitorial services and the restaurant industry? It is a complete myth in this economy to hear the tale that they are only doing the jobs Americans won’t do. We have our own poor and underprivileged which we are bound in conscience to help and employ. Worse yet, there is an influx of illegal foreign workers in the construction industry which hits blue collar America, the backbone of this country, and causes further soaring unemployment and desperation in families. So, I’d really like to ask our liberal bishops why they think illegal aliens are more deserving of our sympathies than those without jobs in our own backyard.

 

[FAB]

Yeah, I’m pretty sure our turkey came from one of the poultry houses that hires illegal immigrants - you know, the processing plants that laid off American workers who are **also **below the poverty level and unskilled, and have families to feed, or the black community that used to depend upon the benefits they paid, but who no longer even have jobs. Now those companies can really depress the wages of legal workers while inflating their profit.

So it are the corporations which hire and abuse the immgrant population. In that I would agree, so it is the employer which I previous stated is a major issue, since thay don’t pay fare wages, or health insurance. But on the other hand are you willing to pay more for your Christmas turkey so the company can pay those fair wages. There lies also part of the issue. this country has benifited from the lower wages by being able to pay less for the goods we want.
But the enforcment is not on the buisnesses who hire. If it were it may be a different story.

Did you know that the illegal immigrant community has virtually taken over certain industries like the hotel/motel (maid) business (which used to be one of the biggest employers of blacks,) janitorial services and the restaurant industry? It is a complete myth in this economy to hear the tale that they are only doing the jobs Americans won’t do. We have our own poor and underprivileged which we are bound in conscience to help and employ. Worse yet, there is an influx of illegal foreign workers in the construction industry which hits blue collar America, the backbone of this country, and causes further soaring unemployment and desperation in families. So, I’d really like to ask our liberal bishops why they think illegal aliens are more deserving of our sympathies than those without jobs in our own backyard.

All these issues go back to the companies who do the empoyment, not on the immagrants who are willing to take those wages. again we want the product at the cheapest price. If you want to help solve the immigration issue, then demand net time you have construction on your house that all the laborers ar leagal and the contractor is paying union wages with benifits, tell the store you only want goods that are produced by legal or american at min. wage with benifits.
the american worker has been layed off because of consumers not willing to pay more. Labor is like any other good, the price is based on demand and availibilty. I cannot fault a person who is willing to work the worse jobs atn the worse wages and longest hours so they can feed their family. You are makeing them a scape goat for a much deeper issues. The danger comes because this has been done before. Remember the Jews and WWII.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I would suggest that your ordinary agrees with these bishops, and that these bishops are acting as spokesmen for the entire conference.

Until a bishop says that they speak for him they do not.

No bishop can speak for another. The USCCB has no binding power over the bishops.

 

[pnewton]

And let‘s not forget what happened in Babel when humankind in their pride tried to construct a tower of universality - a multicultural society, or utopia, a social re-construction if you will, which God dispersed.

I agree that we should not use immigrants to construct a devise that will let us challenge God in Heaven.