Hispanic bishops letter offers sympathy to illegal immigrants

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You may not have intended it but your choice of words did this. I find it troubling that you fail to recognize it.

I am also saddened that you paint those who may disagree with you as not being compassionate or caring. That is another tactic used to belittle those who disagree with you. I also fail to see the relivance of pointing out my religious connections in a political discussikn except for negitative points.

These are games I do not play and not only am I done with this discussion but in order to self censor I must inform you that I am putting you on my ignore list.

You may disagree but as I stated earlier I have not given my personal stand on this issue.

I have asked some questions and pointed out the facts as to some distorted ideas of what the Church teaches and how the current system works without supplying mt opinions. Rather than addressing that you have implied that I do not veiw those in this country as children of God and you point out that my views (which remain unstated so you must be reading my heart and mind) does not match with a relativly small number of Carmelites that you know.

I tried to have an open and honest discussion but it appears that this is not what you want.

I will pray for you, please pray for me.
Brother I believe I have addressed the Church’s policy.
I have been open with my opionion and am not playing devil’s advicate.
1 The immigrants as the bishops stated have added to economy of this country, more than their cost.
2 it is wrong to split families through deportation.
3 there needs to be a path to leagal status and citizenship if required that does involve going back the counrty of origin. Requiring citizenship is not church teaching, agreeded, but is the ultimate solution for these people to have full rights in this country.
4 we as a rich counrty are called by the Church to help poor countries.
5 we are called to help the immagrant amoung us.
6 all for a fair and just immigration policy, the current one is broken .
7 I am not playing games, I have stood on the pulpit and preached this in the past and will again.
8 my obediance is the my bishops, and my conscience is clear by following them.
 
What if the only way you could provide for your family and children was to risk your life, cross a border in the dark of nightm risk death, and persecution. Would you do this for your children? These people are. Mexico has two classes of people, the rich and the poor, the vast majority are the poor and the rich do nothing to help them.
If you had a neighbor who abused their children, you would take action to help I would hope. Mexico is that neighbor who abuses her children, when they sneek into your backyard looking for help, you want to throw them back
You seem to enjoy demonizing those who happen to disagree with you or post anything that you disagree with.

Your analogy is faulty. It would work much better if you said that it is like a neighbor who breaks into your house and uses your resources and takes them and moves them to their own house. You seem to ignore that many of those who are in this country illegally really do not wish to stay here for the long term and send much of what they make back to their family members in their home country, some of them even traveling home when the work they do is out of season.

Even that analogy does not work. This is such a complex issue that it is trivialized when one attempts to describe it by analogy.
 
You seem to enjoy demonizing those who happen to disagree with you or post anything that you disagree with.

Your analogy is faulty. It would work much better if you said that it is like a neighbor who breaks into your house and uses your resources and takes them and moves them to their own house. You seem to ignore that many of those who are in this country illegally really do not wish to stay here for the long term and send much of what they make back to their family members in their home country, some of them even traveling home when the work they do is out of season.

Even that analogy does not work. This is such a complex issue that it is trivialized when one attempts to describe it by analogy.
playing devil’s advicate again?
 
What if the only way you could provide for your family and children was to risk your life, cross a border in the dark of nightm risk death, and persecution. Would you do this for your children? These people are. Mexico has two classes of people, the rich and the poor, the vast majority are the poor and the rich do nothing to help them.
The last sentence is common knowledge; the rest of this quote is myth. Mexico, like the United States, like Brazil, like India, like Thailand, like most other countries, has its grinding poverty and shameful neglect by the rich (especially the rich among the government). But Mexico also has its working poor. This segment of the population is the group that is able to put together the means to make the travel north. But they bring with them, in general, a low level of skill relative to employability in a First World economy with housing costs astronomically higher than what they left, and they enter for the first time an environment with a pattern of employment that strongly favors high levels of skills, including a high-enough level of literacy to be competitive for jobs. It is a Third World/First World mismatch which lacks the social supports provided in the former Third World: government-subsidized medical care, social/economic support from extended family, competency in the host country’s language to navigate the social and economic structures of a radically more capitalistic country, moral guidance of the young from familiar relatives, and much more.

The native-born, English-speaking, adequately-educated American middle class has already been put at risk in our country, due to persistent economic downturns since March of 2008, and due to general cost of living increases (housing, food, medical care, transportation) which have climbed steadily, sometimes precipitously, over the last 20 years. It would be as if a middle-income working couple were to scrape together enough cash to move to Beverly Hills “to seek a better life.” What they would most likely get instead is a worse life, not a better one, because they would be entering a “world” which is beyond their means in which to compete, and in which no or few rescue structures exist.

Indeed opportunity still exists in this country – for education, for training, for that “better life” – for those abroad and those within. However, neither time nor any other commodities are available to low-skilled, illiterate, uneducated people who must substitute those educational opportunities with meager, poverty-wage kinds of employment in an unrelenting pace (working up to 75 hrs/week) just to maintain housing and a poor level of nutrition in an expensive country – compared to what they left. It is a different life than what they left, but arguably not a “better” life. There are completely different assumptions in a primarily capitalistic setting vs. a socialistic setting, despite corruption in the latter. One could also present a case for the larger moral issue being a need to examine the brutality of the capitalistic system as practiced in the U.S. and applied universally here, regardless of the resources and the national origins of all residents within our borders.

I don’t have a whole lot of patience, or respect, for anyone in this country – whether clerical or lay, religious believer or unbeliever – who would so irresponsibly encourage such a morally compromised situation, which invites poverty upon poverty, and hardly is either charity or justice. It is actually a form of cruelty, not to mention dishonesty. Combine that with support for the illegality of this kind of “immigration” – which puts such an illegal entrant into an even more precarious position with regard to survivability – and I’m just glad that I am not responsible for the consciences of others, because personally I could not live peacefully with such a level of deception.

Indeed, splitting families is a terrible outcome, but one initiated (as Tigg points out) by the decisions of adult foreigners to migrate secretly and thus put at risk themselves and whoever travels with them. However, the larger issue is that virtually never does such secret migration include the very extended family which has provided the moral guidance and family stability in the country of origin. Rather, the wage-earners (and less often their minor children) travel alone, with a high probability –by the way—of being raped during the illicit crossing, another moral outrage which is endemic to illegal immigration as opposed to legal. It is the wage-earners who have done the initial destructive splitting of the family unit, not the U.S. government. They have left behind key members of the family who have functioned as supplemental child-rearers, and would need to function as sole child-rearers in an expensive country which requires both parents to work brutal hours for the survival of the family.

I’m sorry: Perpetuating this is “compassion?” I think not.
 
We share some of the blame by not enforcing our own laws. For this we need to except the consequences and move on with some solutions.

What I would do:
  1. Extend conditional amnesty and citizenship to every illegal currently here after a thorough background check is completed. Give them a set amount of time to come in and start the background checks.
  2. Build a wall and use monitoring devices (drones) to completely control the flow of people across our borders.
  3. Amend the birthright citizenship so children of illegals so they do not become US citizens. Grandfather in everyone already here.
  4. Increase immigration and work visas for those in North, Central, and South America. Also, limit immigration and work visas for those countries that treat their own immigrants like garbage such as Mexico!
These will not solve the illegal immigrant problems but they can help. We have kept the gate open for so long we should now grant those already here the right to stay but shut the gate behind them. We can then control the flow better and more humanly. We have a right as a sovereign nation to control our borders and it just boggles my mind when people make every excuse why we should not do so.

I would have no problem with having open borders between countries in North, Central, and South America as long as each country had a similar immigration policy. This currently is not the case and as such requires us to protect ourselves.
 
I find these two paragraphs from the Catechism of the Catholic Church very interesting especially the parts I have underlined.

2241 The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.

2442 It is not the role of the Pastors of the Church to intervene directly in the political structuring and organization of social life. This task is part of the vocation of the lay faithful, acting on their own initiative with their fellow citizens. Social action can assume various concrete forms. It should always have the common good in view and be in conformity with the message of the Gospel and the teaching of the Church. It is the role of the laity “to animate temporal realities with Christian commitment, by which they show that they are witnesses and agents of peace and justice.”

It seems the Church teaches that it is for the duty of the political authorities to set the laws for immigration while the duty of the immigrant is to obey those laws.

It is also not the duty of the bishops to mess around with this, so I have to wonder at this document which calls for some very specific things.
 
I find these two paragraphs from the Catechism of the Catholic Church very interesting especially the parts I have underlined.
2241 The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.

2442 It is not the role of the Pastors of the Church to intervene directly in the political structuring and organization of social life. This task is part of the vocation of the lay faithful, acting on their own initiative with their fellow citizens. Social action can assume various concrete forms. It should always have the common good in view and be in conformity with the message of the Gospel and the teaching of the Church. It is the role of the laity "to animate temporal realities with Christian commitment, by which they show that they are witnesses and agents of peace and justice."It seems the Church teaches that it is for the duty of the political authorities to set the laws for immigration while the duty of the immigrant is to obey those laws.

It is also not the duty of the bishops to mess around with this, so I have to wonder at this document which calls for some very specific things.
Does not the Holy Father himself offer an appeal to end capital punishment? That is a rather specific thing. I think the key is that in both cases there is not direct intervention. It is an opinion on how Church teaching impacts society, as they see it.
 
Does not the Holy Father himself offer an appeal to end capital punishment? That is a rather specific thing. I think the key is that in both cases there is not direct intervention. It is an opinion on how Church teaching impacts society, as they see it.
I don’t know. Calling for the end of capital punishment is not comparable to saying that illegal immigrants should have a path to citizenship.

IMHO for these to be alike the pope would have to call for the release of those who are convicted and awaiting their death sentence.

That is the pope is calling for a modification of the punishments, not for an exoneration of all punishments due to an illegal action.

Also the pope is calling for this in general terms. I am not aware where he has singled out any country in his statements.

If these bishops want to call for all people who are in any country to have a path to citizenship in that country and to have their status changed then I do not think this would be a problem with this paragraph of the Catechism.

I also find it strange that the Church would weigh in on this matter in such a direct way, that is saying that there should be a path to citizenship for these people who are in the country illegally while not commenting on other countries where it is a felony to be there illegally (in the United States it is only considered a misdemeanor).
 
I don’t know. Calling for the end of capital punishment is not comparable to saying that illegal immigrants should have a path to citizenship.
Not two things are exactly comparable, but they have this in common: they both take Church moral teaching and apply it to a specific civil solution. No, the Holy Father does not single our a specific country. However, I reading him, I find it hard not to believe he had America in mind primarily, as we are one of the last technologically advanced country to still use the death penalty. In any case, banning the death penalty is a very specific change to the law he suggests, more so even then the Hispanics letter.

I guess I am just saying there is some precedent for what the bishops have done. I think as long as they are not trying to draft legislation it is allowable, though we are free to disagree with them on it.
 
Not two things are exactly comparable, but they have this in common: they both take Church moral teaching and apply it to a specific civil solution. No, the Holy Father does not single our a specific country. However, I reading him, I find it hard not to believe he had America in mind primarily, as we are one of the last technologically advanced country to still use the death penalty. In any case, banning the death penalty is a very specific change to the law he suggests, more so even then the Hispanics letter.

I guess I am just saying there is some precedent for what the bishops have done. I think as long as they are not trying to draft legislation it is allowable, though we are free to disagree with them on it.
I think I understand what you are saying and I think you understand what I am saying.

I agree that the Holy Father had America in mind but what he said is applicable to all countries where what the bishops have said in the document we are discussing is not.

Then there is also the role of the papacy to be taken into account in such issues. That role is very different from the role of the bishop.
 
The following is nothing more than my opinion, and what I have come to believe is true based on my 50+ years of living, including following politics and observing social changes. I offer it is a little, insignificant man with a minor, insignificant life, who has no influence in the world. I do not intend to offer “proofs,” or “facts” to support my views…This post is about one American’s view. There may be others who agree with me…but, maybe I’m alone…

I believe the United States of America is dead. She was murdered by the rampant immorality of her people, a multitude of traitors in her government and institutions working for foreign and anti-nationalist ends. That includes involving the United States in endless wars so as to help re-order the global landscape.

Those interests intentionally engineered the de-industrialization of the United States, the erosion of our society from within, and invasion via the mass movement of populations, with the intent to cause so much rancor and division within that no coherent opposition could be raised.

I believe that the Church rejoices in the fall of America. I believe that the 33 Bishops who signed the present document are simply an extension of this attitude. I believe that the Church desires the imposition of a “new international order,” and does not want the United States to stand in the way.

Finally, I believe that those Americans who do not want to “go along” with the program have no hope of returning the United States to her original purpose. Our enemies have already won. The Constitution too, is dead. I believe that the only hope for those of us who do not want to live in this continually degenerating environment, for those of us who still believe in the concepts of freedom as enshrined in the Declaration and the Constitution and wish to live accordingly, is to carve out a new niche for ourselves…a new nation. We must separate from the old…and embrace the new…otherwise, not only our nation, but our heritage will be lost forever.

As I said, this post is not about “facts.” It’s about my view of the overall picture, and what it means to me…and how the actions of the Bishops fits in…

God bless us all…
 
I agree with some of your sentiments Melvin. Not sure if I would go as far as saying its already a lost cause, but we are pretty far down that road already.
 
Melvin, I totally disagree with you.

We are the same age. We have followed the same events.

I think that what has happened to our country has happened precisely because of who we are. We lost our industrial edge not because of some conspiracy, but because we value individual decisions over collective action.

Individuals have made decisions that, while they seemed good at the time, combined with many other “good” decisions to move manufacturing overseas, to create generations who feel they are entitled to everything their parents have, to create a country where we bend over backwards to cater to anyone who loudly complains, to create a country where men can not be men.

It wasn’t a conspiracy. It just sort of happened. we can get back on track if we elect the right people.
 
It wasn’t a conspiracy. It just sort of happened. we can get back on track if we elect the right people.
This is true but the problem is the system is so rigged the “right people” can not get elected.
 
This is true but the problem is the system is so rigged the “right people” can not get elected.
Well, it’s rigged in the sense that you have to be a doctor, lawyer, or business owner to enter politics at the local level and work your way up to state and national office. Someone earning a salary isn’t going to become president or US senator.

I am not really sure who the “right” people are. I think that the fact you* want* to be president sort of disqualifies you on the mental health scale…
 
Indeed opportunity still exists in this country – for education, for training, for that “better life” – for those abroad and those within. However, neither time nor any other commodities are available to low-skilled, illiterate, uneducated people who must substitute those educational opportunities with meager, poverty-wage kinds of employment in an unrelenting pace (working up to 75 hrs/week) just to maintain housing and a poor level of nutrition in an expensive country – compared to what they left. It is a different
 
[What I read in these threads is fear, and I don’t know of what. Fear of a peoples with a long tradition of family, culture and faith?
You don’t read it from me, and probably not from many others on this thread here. If you consider all those who know from the inside how outdated earlier models of immigration are operative in a 2011 global economy dependent on more advanced skills than agrarian ones, you are applying your own prejudices to other people’s knowledge of the economic and sociological facts. In fact, I will say that your posts do not respond to the sincere and knowledgeable views of others, but are a political reaction based on possibly your own stereotypes of others. 😉

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8404535#8404535

Have a nice day.
[/quote]
 
You don’t read it from me, and probably not from many others on this thread here. If you consider all those who know from the inside how outdated earlier models of immigration are operative in a 2011 global economy dependent on more advanced skills than agrarian ones, you are applying your own prejudices to other people’s knowledge of the economic and sociological facts. In fact, I will say that your posts do not respond to the sincere and knowledgeable views of others, but are a political reaction based on possibly your own stereotypes of others. 😉

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8404535#8404535

Have a nice day.
Good insight and something for everyone to think about. I suggest that it would be a good thing to refresh our memories by re-reading some of the earlier social encyclicals. This is not to deny that the societal-geopolitical landscape has changed since they were written, but rather to ferret out and hold (as a treasure) their spiritual wisdom and counsel which remains a timeless truth. An example of this would be upholding the common good which I find absent in the greater number of statements from the episcopate such as this thread holds.

When reading more recent statements from some of our bishops on subjects such as immigration, we need to ask ourselves if ours is an emotional response such as the sampling in the OP, or if we are truly using discernment to ensure that the continuity of the (true) teaching remains unbroken and is not mistaken for a political bias or mis-perception of the “bigger” picture.
 
It is true, most of these brothers and sisters came over on their own, but yet like any one else they meet join together and have children. I say joined together and not married because of the status they have they cannot get married civilly or in the Church. But they have children, these children are American Citizens by birth. These are babys to teenagers who know of their parents country of origin, but they are part of the American fabric. Tearing these families apart does tear at the fabric of our nation, it tears at our compssion and our christian faith.
For a broader perspective, you might want to read a book written by a Catholic priest entitled “The Immorality of Illegal Immigration,” by Fr. Pat Bascio, who spent time in Mexico speaking with the abandoned wives whose husbands had illegally immigrated north and never returned. Many of these men had left children in Mexico and the wives found out from mutual friends that some had “re-married” and were living new lives here in the States with additional children to support - the babies that had been born here.

I think I’ll save some of that compassion for the ones left behind.
 
You don’t read it from me, and probably not from many others on this thread here. If you consider all those who know from the inside how outdated earlier models of immigration are operative in a 2011 global economy dependent on more advanced skills than agrarian ones, you are applying your own prejudices to other people’s knowledge of the economic and sociological facts. In fact, I will say that your posts do not respond to the sincere and knowledgeable views of others, but are a political reaction based on possibly your own stereotypes of others. 😉

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8404535#8404535

Have a nice day.
You may not have fear, but many do, I wasn’t specifically talking about you.
I not applying any prejudices or sterotypes. The fact is that most of the jobs immigrants take are low skill jobs. You don’t need an education to chop up animals in a processing plant, to pick crops or to work as a laborer. It doesn’t take a lot of education to cut wood of drive nails in the constuction industry.
I have worked within the hispanic community in my ministry for years. My knowledge is first hand and not taken from any sterotype. You might say I am on the front line.

Peace,
Deacon FAB
 
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