Holy Father knocked down at Midnight Mass

[redrosetea]

Because she is ill with a diminished power of reasoning…WE should be merciful…You wouldn’t get mad at someone if they had cancer…She can’t help her illness, but she should be treated and kept away from people until she can control herself

She is a victim of her disease…Christ said Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy

Pope JPII forgave the man that tried to murder him…He set an example for us just as Christ did

 

[nsper7]

I was thinking about something earlier when someone compared how even Presidents chafe at all the security they are often put under. One reason civic leaders will have clashes with their security forces is because most politicians are worried about re-election and being viewed as over-guarded, even cowardly, or unapproachable is a good way to lose votes. After all, while the Secret Service would probably not want the President to go out into the middle of a crowd and shake hands and sign autographs, the President feels he has to in order to remain liked by the populace and to get re-elected…for some odd reason, people tend not to vote for recluses or guys who travel in armored tanks.

In terms of the Pope, it is different because he is Pope for life and answers to no one. Even though some might not like the Pope walking in procession flanked by armed guards…well, who cares? He does not answer to any electorate or have to worry about re-election. In this case, common sense says security should then be paramount since personal popularity is not a “requirement” as it is for an elected official who desires re-election. Let’s face it, if there had been a couple of Swiss Guards flanking Il Papa, that woman probably would not have been able to get so close to him or pose a threat.

 

[sidbrown]

Because she is ill with a diminished power of reasoning…WE should be merciful…You wouldn’t get mad at someone if they had cancer…She can’t help her illness, but she should be treated and kept away from people until she can control herself

She is a victim of her disease…Christ said Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy

Pope JPII forgave the man that tried to murder him…He set an example for us just as Christ did

There is no comparison between someone who has cancer and someone who is intent on causing serious harm and injury to others., Not to mention the extreme expense of paying for the extra security which will now be mandated. Are you going to pay for this extra security ?No comparison at all bwetween someone crippled by cancer and someone who is a open threat to innocent people. They are completely different. Society has a right to protect itself agaisnt criminals. If they will not reform, then it is only to fair to all concerned to lock her up and put her in a cage and you can always visit her while she is safely behind bars and give your sympathy to her there. And on your way to the prison, you can drop off your donation to help defray all of the costs incurred by her violent actions.

 

[redrosetea]

There is no comparison between someone who has cancer and someone who is intent on causing serious harm and injury to others., Not to mention the extreme expense of paying for the extra security which will now be mandated. Are you going to pay for this extra security ?No comparison at all bwetween someone crippled by cancer and someone who is a open threat to innocent people. They are completely different. Society has a right to protect itself agaisnt criminals. If they will not reform, then it is only to fair to all concerned to lock her up and put her in a cage and you can always visit her while she is safely behind bars and give your sympathy to her there. And on your way to the prison, you can drop off your donation to help defray all of the costs incurred by her violent actions.

We do not put people in cages…this type of thinking is certainly nothing that I want any part of…she is confused perhaps even psychotic…she is not an animal…

 

[nsper7]

Yes, it is certainly possible to be robbed in Church and taking reasonable precautions is fine. Just so long as we con’t lose sight of being Christian in the process. Christ tells us to give and even give extra, to got he extra mile, to pray for those spitefully use us etc.

I’d rather we used more “Christ” sense than “common” sense.

What exactly does this mean? Church teaching allows for the defense of property and body.

Agreed. But it seems sad that the people who should believe the most in divine protection Divine Will should be the very people who want the pope so protected that he can barely touch people. I know - I know - The world is a dangerous place and the pope’s position today is very different than in Peter’s day, but still I can’t help but be saddened by it.

Where in the Pope’s job description does it require he behave like a standard “public figure”? Remember, he is not a politician who needs to concern himself with re-election nor is he a movie star that need to concern himself with public attention.

 

[sidbrown]

We do not put people in cages…this type of thinking is certainly nothing that I want any part of…she is confused perhaps even psychotic…she is not an animal…

Are you going to pay for the damage that she has done? And if she is let free and she does more harm to people, will you pay for the medical care and recuperation costs of her victims?
She is a crimianl and deserves to be behind bars with other criminals who are intent on injuring innocent people.

 

[redrosetea]

No the Vatican has security people on the payroll 24/7…It is their job to protect the pope, they are already getting paid to do it …Now I shall bid you good night

 

[sidbrown]

No the Vatican has security people on the payroll 24/7…It is their job to protect the pope, they are already getting paid to do it …Now I shall bid you good night

Yes, but are you going to be rsponsible for those people who are harmed and injured by this person? I don;t think so. You want to complain about restraining her and making her responsible for her criminal actions, but at the same time, you do not want to offer any monetary help to protect innocent people from harm.
There are innocent people and children in this wrold who deserve to be allowed to walk about without the fear of being harmed or injured by criminals.

 

[JReducation]

Maybe it would be a violation against the Gospel of Life to do that to someone who is mentally ill. Such a person must be loved, protected and kept in an environment where she will receive the help that she needs so that no harm may come to her or to others.

It would pain our holy Father Francis very much to read what you have written, my friend. The lepers of society are not to be imprisoned as common criminals, just because their illness poses a threat to others. The lepers were to be embraced and loved, because Christ himself was present in them. They are a gift to society. They are God’s last attempt to help us learn charity, mercy, compassion, forgiveness and generosity.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF
Franciscan Brother of Life

 

[sidbrown]

Maybe it would be a violation against the Gospel of Life to do that to someone who is mentally ill. Such a person must be loved, protected and kept in an environment where she will receive the help that she needs so that no harm may come to her or to others.

It would pain our holy Father Francis very much to read what you have written, my friend. The lepers of society are not to be imprisoned as common criminals, just because their illness poses a threat to others. The lepers were to be embraced and loved, because Christ himself was present in them. They are a gift to society. They are God’s last attempt to help us learn charity, mercy, compassion, forgiveness and generosity.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF
Franciscan Brother of Life

Hey, before pointing the finger at me, let me ask you what you have done for these criminals, oops, I meant to say mentally deranged people. And by the way, of the millions of criminals in prison today, is it not true that each and every one of them can be said to be mentally ill in some sense of the word?
I notice that you have not shown here one iota of concern for the victims of these crimes. Where is the concern for the innocent children and other civilians who have been seriously harmed by this type of criminal, oops, once again, I meant to say mentally ill person.
The fact is that all criminals are to some extent mentally ill. And further, as a society we have the right and moral obligation to protect innocent civilians from violent criminal activity.

 

[Jerok]

Hey, before pointing the finger at me, let me ask you what you have done for these criminals, oops, I meant to say mentally deranged people. And by the way, of the millions of criminals in prison today, is it not true that each and every one of them can be said to be mentally ill in some sense of the word?
I notice that you have not shown here one iota of concern for the victims of these crimes. Where is the concern for the innocent children and other civilians who have been seriously harmed by this type of criminal, oops, once again, I meant to say mentally ill person.
The fact is that all criminals are to some extent mentally ill. And further, as a society we have the right and moral obligation to protect innocent civilians from violent criminal activity.

I believe you should put yourself in the person’s position. If you had the mental illness, you would likely be doing the same thing as them, regardless of your ‘morality’ in your current mental state, as you would have little to no control. In other words, mentally insane are not morally culpable, much like a toddler is not culpable. They cannot commit a sin if they do not have full consent.

However, I do agree with what you are saying - it’s hard to distinguish who is taking advantage of the system, who’s really mentally insane and who isn’t. I guess I ask myself, is this criminal really ‘mentally insane’ or is he just an evil person? Because evil and insane are two different things.

God bless

 

[sidbrown]

I believe you should put yourself in the person’s position. If you had the mental illness, you would likely be doing the same thing as them, regardless of your ‘morality’ in your current mental state, as you would have little to no control. In other words, mentally insane are not morally culpable, much like a toddler is not culpable. They cannot commit a sin if they do not have full consent.

However, I do agree with what you are saying - it’s hard to distinguish who is taking advantage of the system, who’s really mentally insane and who isn’t. I guess I ask myself, is this criminal really ‘mentally insane’ or is he just an evil person? Because evil and insane are two different things.

God bless

Is it really?
Can it not be said of any one of the millions of criminals behind bars, that he (or she) has some sort of mental illness to some lesser or greater degree? If this is true, then what are we supposed to do, let all of them out since it is wrong to put a person in a cage?. By the way, should we forget about the children and all the other innocent hard working and law abiding civilians who have been brutally harmed by these poor mentally ill people. Should we forget about their wounds, forget about their hospital care, forget about the harm done to their families, forget about their injuries, forget about their broken bones. Is it really morally right to focus in exclusively on having compassion, symnpathy and love for the criminals and terrorists in our society while ignoring the great bodily harm and injuries done to innocent law abiding citizens ?

 

[JReducation]

Hey, before pointing the finger at me, let me ask you what you have done for these criminals, oops, I meant to say mentally deranged people. .

• Our brothers serve at shelters for those who are on the streets.
• We raise money to pay for their medical bills, since many of them have no funds
• We also beg services from the medical community, which we get pro bonum.
• Our brothers travel from parish to parish through the diocese preaching the Gospel of Life, encouraging parishioners to help fund programs for the mentally ill, women in crisis pregnancies, the chronically ill and the termminally ill
• The Brothers of Life also work with Church authorities and lay people to develop programs for those who are the most vulnerable members of society, such as outreach programs where persons such as this can have a safe place to live and be properly cared for
• Together with the Office for Respect Life we serve five pregnancy centers, two counseling centers and a resource center for those who are in crisis pregnancies, mentally ill, chronically ill or have been hurt in any way, especially children
• We volunteer in youth programs to promote vocations among young people to serve this and other populations of people who would be consdiered the lepers of society
• We serve without charging and depnd totally on the funds that some of our brothers can bring in to help feed the community
• Often our brothers share their food and shelter with those who live on the street, because there are not enough spaces in organizations run by state or conty agencies, these include the pregnant, the drug addict, the mentally ill and the elderly poor

If you feel that God is calling you to work along with us and live a life of absolute poverty, obedience and consecrated chastity dedicated to the most vulnerable members of society, check out our web site.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

Is it really?
Can it not be said of any one of the millions of criminals behind bars, that he (or she) has some sort of mental illness to some lesser or greater degree? If this is true, then what are we supposed to do, let all of them out since it is wrong to put a person in a cage?. By the way, should we forget about the children and all the other innocent hard working and law abiding civilians who have been brutally harmed by these poor mentally ill people. Should we forget about their wounds, forget about their hospital care, forget about the harm done to their families, forget about their injuries, forget about their broken bones. Is it really morally right to focus in exclusively on having compassion, symnpathy and love for the criminals and terrorists in our society while ignoring the great bodily harm and injuries done to innocent law abiding citizens ?

In Evangelium Vitae, Pope John Paul II remind us that it is our ecclesial and individual responsibility to care for all the vulnerable members of society. This includes those who are mentally ill and those who are victimes of any kind of violence. There is not one preferred group, because all are sons and daughters of the same Father.

**This community commitment does not however eliminate or lessen the responsibility of each individual, called by the Lord to “become the neighbour” of everyone: “Go and do likewise” (Lk 10:37). ** Evangelium Vitae/ Chap III Constitutions of the Franciscan Brothers of Life

As Mother Teresa once said to Fr. Benedict G., “What do you believe Jesus thinks about these people?”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

I notice that you have not shown here one iota of concern for the victims of these crimes. .

I don’t know if this is enough concern or not, but it’s the best that I can do. Before I entered religious life I was married and the father of three children. On June 3, 1993 my wife, father, and seven-year old son were killed by a drunk driver. My nine-year old daughter and four-year old son survived.

After raising my children alone and spending a great deal of time with the driver of the other car, I realized that God loves us all. The image of Mary, standing quietly at the foot of the cross always moved me. I often wondered about that silence. It dawned on me one day as I was praying before the Blessed Sacrament that Mary’s silence was about love. Not only did she love her son, but she also loved those who condemned her son to death and those who carried out the execution. Her immaculate heart could do not more than love. There was no room in her heart for anger, indignation, hatred or punishment. She wanted nothing more than to see these souls saved.

My relationship with the driver of the other car changed. I began to visit him. Later I began to visit his family. I discovered that underneath all of this there was a human being who was very broken. I had received the greater blessing. Even though I had lost most of my family in a tragic accident, I did not have to live with the guilt. I came to the conclusion that God would not allow me to allow another person to go without forgiveness and kindness. God had been kind to me. Had I been the driver, I do not know if I could have lived with the guilt.

God in his infinite wisdom did not allow me to be in that position, which he knew that I could not handle. Instead he placed me in a position that I could handle. I was the victim. Forgiveness and charity was not beyond my capability, if I wanted to do so. God had given me Mary as an example. Not only had he given me Mary, but I had been educated by Capuchin Franciscans all of my life. I knew about Francis and his great love for Jesus in the rejected and marginalized. God had given me the tools and the examples that I needed. Having been born with a free will, I also had the ability to fogive and to help. It was my choice. Everything was in my hands. I had been blessed.

That’s all that I can say. Because there was not much more that I could do or can do today. You may be right. I have nothing to add here. I may not have much to contribute. But that is my poverty and I can’t do more than this.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Pat_the_elder]

Bro. JR,

I have always been amazed at your posts - They have always shown someone who truly loves his fellow man - but this one has humbled me beyond anything I could say or write. You, your family and The OSF will be in my prayers today at Mass

God Bless

Pat

 

[sidbrown]

I don’t know if this is enough concern or not, but it’s the best that I can do. Before I entered religious life I was married and the father of three children. On June 3, 1993 my wife, father, and seven-year old son were killed by a drunk driver. My nine-year old daughter and four-year old son survived.

After raising my children alone and spending a great deal of time with the driver of the other car, I realized that God loves us all. The image of Mary, standing quietly at the foot of the cross always moved me. I often wondered about that silence. It dawned on me one day as I was praying before the Blessed Sacrament that Mary’s silence was about love. Not only did she love her son, but she also loved those who condemned her son to death and those who carried out the execution. Her immaculate heart could do not more than love. There was no room in her heart for anger, indignation, hatred or punishment. She wanted nothing more than to see these souls saved.

My relationship with the driver of the other car changed. I began to visit him. Later I began to visit his family. I discovered that underneath all of this there was a human being who was very broken. I had received the greater blessing. Even though I had lost most of my family in a tragic accident, I did not have to live with the guilt. I came to the conclusion that God would not allow me to allow another person to go without forgiveness and kindness. God had been kind to me. Had I been the driver, I do not know if I could have lived with the guilt.

God in his infinite wisdom did not allow me to be in that position, which he knew that I could not handle. Instead he placed me in a position that I could handle. I was the victim. Forgiveness and charity was not beyond my capability, if I wanted to do so. God had given me Mary as an example. Not only had he given me Mary, but I had been educated by Capuchin Franciscans all of my life. I knew about Francis and his great love for Jesus in the rejected and marginalized. God had given me the tools and the examples that I needed. Having been born with a free will, I also had the ability to fogive and to help. It was my choice. Everything was in my hands. I had been blessed.

That’s all that I can say. Because there was not much more that I could do or can do today. You may be right. I have nothing to add here. I may not have much to contribute. But that is my poverty and I can’t do more than this.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Yes, thank you for sharing this and i agree that it is a wonderful thing to be able to forgive those who have wronged you. However, I still believe that society has the right and moral obligation to protect innocent and law abiding people and especially children. And is that not what prisons are for? to protect the law abiding civilian against the criminal while at the same time attempting to reform him? In many cases, drunk drivers are not put behind bars, but given a small fine, and there are consequently tragic results for the children and family of his future victims. If more drunk drivers were put in prisons, rather than let out on the streets, we would have fewer of these tragic heart rending incidents.
It really does not help to say as an excuse that the criminal is mentally unbalanced, because you can always say that of any criminal, to a lesser or greater degree. I don’t think it is morally acceptable to subject innocent children and law abiding citizens to the real possibility and near occasion of bodily harm or bloody injury or violent death because of some crackpot theory about criminals or terrorists being mentally unbalanced.

 

[JReducation]

Bro. JR,

I have always been amazed at your posts - They have always shown someone who truly loves his fellow man - but this one has humbled me beyond anything I could say or write. You, your family and The OSF will be in my prayers today at Mass

God Bless

Pat

Thank you for your prayers. Please ask Jesus to send us more brothers. We need more to take care of people like this and those who are affected by them. Mental illness is a two-sided lane. On one side you have the identified patient and on the other side you have those who suffer the effects and the chaos that mental illness brings into a family and a community, as we can see from this thread. May the infant Jesus smile at you as he smiled at St. Francis from the crib at Greccio.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

Yes, thank you for sharing this and i agree that it is a wonderful thing to be able to forgive those who have wronged you. However, I still believe that society has the right and moral obligation to protect innocent and law abiding people and especially children. And is that not what prisons are for? to protect the law abiding civilian against the criminal while at the same time attempting to reform him? In many cases, drunk drivers are not put behind bars, but given a small fine, and there are consequently tragic results for the children and family of his future victims. If more drunk drivers were put in prisons, rather than let out on the streets, we would have fewer of these tragic heart rending incidents.
It really does not help to say as an excuse that the criminal is mentally unbalanced, because you can always say that of any criminal, to a lesser or greater degree. I don’t think it is morally acceptable to subject innocent children and law abiding citizens to the real possibility and near occasion of bodily harm or bloody injury or violent death because of some crackpot theory about criminals or terrorists being mentally unbalanced.

There is a difference between a criminal and a person who is mentally ill. A person who is mentally ill lacks sufficient self-control. According to the reports that came from the Vatican, the woman in this case is a known mentally ill person.

Why she is not being taken care of, so that she and no one else comes to harm, is unkown to me. I wish that I had the answer to that; but I don’t. As I have said, even in our own country, we have laws that say you cannot hosptialize someone who is mentally ill unless they pose a threat to their life or the life of another. Personally, I believe the law is wrong. It does not service to the person who is ill and to those who are exposed to that person. We must join together to change these laws, not only in the USA, but around the world.

On the other hand, prison is not a place for a person with an established psychiatric diagnosis. As we all know, prisons reform no one. In my ministry I have come across people who went to prison for offenses that were not life threatening, such as tax evation and things like that. When they came out, they were dangerous. The contamination effect is horrible. Rather than reform, our prison system serves as a warehouse.

There is a moral obligation to keep citizens safe. But how one keeps citizens safe depends on the condition of the person who poses a threat. A sick person should be in a hospital receiving treatment. A criminal should be in a prison and hopefully receive some kind of rehabilitation. Neither is being done. That is the sad truth of the world in which we live.

That is why it is so important that people of faith grow in awareness of the Gospel of Life and move to make things happen for the good of all. Human life is too sacred to simply lock up and forget about it. It has to be redeemed and Christ has given us the means to do so. Unfortunately, we need more advocates for the redemption of Life. The proper redemption of Life must include healthcare for the mentally ill, services for those who are victims, and rehabilitation for those who are criminal. All of these must be provided with compassion and dedication. Warehousing is not the answer. It is an afront to the incarnation of Son of God. God does ot take on human form to belittle human nature and the dignity of life, but to raise it up. Therefore, we must always advocate for programs, services and laws that raise people from their broken conditions.

May you be blessed by the Holy Family as we celebrate their feast today.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Jerok]

JR, I’ve enjoyed reading your posts in my short time here at the forums. And after learning more about you from your post, I can’t even express how much love I feel for you! You’ve inspired me sir, thank God there’s people like you in this world. That’s just darn saintly! Forgiveness truly is the nature of the Catholic faith.

God bless