holy father?

[clmowry]

Well this one’s much worse: Here Christ refers to the devil himself as father.

John Chapter 8:42-44

• Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44* You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.

Chuck

I think you made this up…He uses the title only for His Father in heaven!
Show me, otherwise…Cuz I beg to differ.

 

[guanophore]

Read in context, paul may have used the term father as a description toward fatherhood, but not as a title or exhaltation, which Christ is clearly warning against as you can see by reading Matt. 23 in its entirety…

We honor those whom God has placed over us in authority, as the Apostolic Tradition teaches us to do. If it bothers you to call the Pope the Holy Father, then I suggest you refrain from doing so!

Rom 12:10
10 love one another with brotherly affection;** outdo one another in showing honor.**
Prov 29:23
he who is lowly in spirit will obtain honor.

Dan 11:39
those who acknowledge him he shall magnify with honor.

We honor him as a spiritual father…

Matt 15:3-5
4 For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die.’

As the pope serves Jesus, he is honored for doing so…
John 12:26
26 If any one serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there shall my servant be also; if any one serves me, the Father will honor him.

All of the Apostles and their successors have been so honored…
Acts 5:12-13

12 Now many signs and wonders were done among the people by the hands of the apostles. And they were all together in Solomon’s Portico. 13 None of the rest dared join them, but the people held them in high honor.

Rom 13:7
7 Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.

Phil 2:29-30
9 So receive him in the Lord with all joy; and honor such men, 30 for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete your service to me.

1 Tim 5:17

17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;

The honor we give to the bishop of Rome is entirely scriptural and appropriate. If you disrespect him, and his office, that is between you and God. Why do you criticise us for being faithful to the teaching of Christ?

I think you made this up…He uses the title only for His Father in heaven!
Show me, otherwise…Cuz I beg to differ.

Matt 15:3-5
4 For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die.’

which father is He speaking of here, MfM?

 

[heisenburg]

While I agree that Paul was Divinely inspired, and Knew completely about what was going on, And yes, Scriptures can make you Wise about salvation. I don’t argue that. The more I can learn about Christ, the more Wise I will be about salvation. The bible is full of things about Christ. One could also say the Church makes you wise about salvation, or that Sunday School can make you Wise about Salvation. There are a lot of things that can make you Wise about salvation. Scripture is simply a Huge part of that.

That being said, Paul was clearly talking about the OT for one reason and one reason only. When He Addressed Timothy, he spoke of the Scriptures that he had been taught since he was a child. Doing the math, it is absolutely impossible he was talking about NT letters.

1. Paul started roughly 40AD(ish) a few years after his Death, but very early on.
2. Don’t know exactly, but rough date of this letter is around 50AD(ish) If Paul was the first person to write letters, then for Paul to be talking about the scriptures since you were a child, this would mean that Timothy could be no older than 10-15. It strains credibility to think Paul is talking about NT scriptures. But valid to say he is talking about OT scriptures.

That being said, yes, there is plenty in the OT about salvation. It is possible, (Though very very difficult) to ween out what Christ Taught from the OT. Remember, all things revealed by Christ were shadowed in the OT. And Yes, reading the OT can make you Wise for salvation.

Timothy, if properly studied in the OT, would have been aware of the Messianic Prophecies. Christ simply puts a face and a name on those prophecies all Jews were taught since birth. So, no, My Church does not have a problem with the verses you provided.

Hope that Helps

In Christ

 

[mercygate]

Read in context, paul may have used the term father as a description toward fatherhood, but not as a title or exhaltation, which Christ is clearly warning against as you can see by reading Matt. 23 in its entirety…

In context John addresses the elders as “fathers.” Paul calls himself father and refers to Timothy as his son.

Oh. When I was a Protestant we called the Bishop, “Reverend Father in God.”

 

[mercygate]

I think you made this up…He uses the title only for His Father in heaven!
Show me, otherwise…Cuz I beg to differ.

Luke 16:30. In the parable of Lazarus and Dives, Jesus uses “father Abraham” in addressing the Patriarch.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Matt 22 and 23 are clearly a warning to the religious elite…

And yet, we have Paul’s "for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel."

Simon, I don’t know if there is any way for you to consider an alternative opinion. . . and I know it is difficult when you are barraged by many posts at once. But it seems that not a few posters here have taken considerable time to show a reasonable and faithful alternative view point.

It may be the case that you will not, and cannot, be moved on your position. If that is so, is further discussion on this point fruitful?

I can certainly see your point – given the way you view and use scripture. Can you see ours?

VC

 

[djrakowski]

Here’s an interesting passage from Titus 1:1-4 (quoted here from the popular evangelical Protestant translation, the NIV):

Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God’s elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, and at his appointed season he brought his word to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior, To Titus, my true son in our common faith:
Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

Is Titus really Paul’s natural son? Is he blaspheming by associating himself with Titus as a spiritual father? After all, MfM wants us to believe that nobody should receive the title of ‘father’ in a religious context!

And, does anyone see a parallel between Paul, who discipled Titus and calls him a son (making him a father), and the way we call our priests ‘Father?’

 

[myfavoritmartin]

How so? They wrote their letters before they died. The Gospels were written after the deaths of both Paul and Peter.

---

**How could they possibly quote something that has not even been written yet? **

---

Now they could quote from the “Oral Tradition” that preceded the written text. That I will believe.

---

Compare the section of the Epistle to the Romans (12:1 to 15:7), IMPLICATIONS OF the gospel for the lives of believers, with the Sermon on the Mount.
Also, When Paul speaks of ‘the meekness and gentleness of Christ’ (2 Cor. 10:1), we remember our Lord’s own words, ‘I am meek and lowly in heart’ (Mt. 11: 29).
The self-denying Christ of the Gospels is the one of whom Paul says, ‘Even Christ pleased not himself’ (Rom. 15:3); and just as the Christ of the Gospels called on His followers to deny themselves (Mk. 8:34), so the apostle insists that, after the example of Christ Himself, it is our Christian duty ‘to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves’ (Rom. 15:1)

. He who said: ‘I am among you as the servant (Lk. 22:27), and performed the menial task of washing His disciples’ feet (Jn. 13:4)’ is He who, according to Paul, ‘took the form of a slave’ (Phil. 11. 7). In a word, when Paul wishes to commend to his readers all those moral graces which adorn the Christ of the Gospels he does so in language like this: ‘Put on the Lord Jesus Christ’ (Rom. 13:14).

 

[myfavoritmartin]

And yet, we have Paul’s "for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel."

Simon, I don’t know if there is any way for you to consider an alternative opinion. . . and I know it is difficult when you are barraged by many posts at once. But it seems that not a few posters here have taken considerable time to show a reasonable and faithful alternative view point.

It may be the case that you will not, and cannot, be moved on your position. If that is so, is further discussion on this point fruitful?

I can certainly see your point – given the way you view and use scripture. Can you see ours?

VC

Sure, I got big time conviction against it, though…Guess thats just me, doesn’t affect ya’ll I guess.
I just fail to see what you guys think Christ was actually talking bout then! He talks bout titles and tassles and vanity and about the religous leaders. It doesn’t appear to take a rocket scientist to understand our Lords words, guess I’d rather err in my direction than the wrong direction.

 

[mercygate]

OK. This isn’t new Testament, but my personal all time favorite is Elisha’s farewell to Elijah as he ascends in the fiery chariot:

“My father! My father!” (2Kg 2:12)

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Here’s an interesting passage from Titus 1:1-4 (quoted here from the popular evangelical Protestant translation, the NIV):
Is Titus really Paul’s natural son? Is he blaspheming by associating himself with Titus as a spiritual father? After all, MfM wants us to believe that nobody should receive the title of ‘father’ in a religious context!

And, does anyone see a parallel between Paul, who discipled Titus and calls him a son (making him a father), and the way we call our priests ‘Father?’

I fail to see Titus calling him "Father Paul".

 

[JoeyWarren]

Compare the section of the Epistle to the Romans (12:1 to 15:7), IMPLICATIONS OF the gospel for the lives of believers, with the Sermon on the Mount.
Also, When Paul speaks of ‘the meekness and gentleness of Christ’ (2 Cor. 10:1), we remember our Lord’s own words, ‘I am meek and lowly in heart’ (Mt. 11: 29).
The self-denying Christ of the Gospels is the one of whom Paul says, ‘Even Christ pleased not himself’ (Rom. 15:3); and just as the Christ of the Gospels called on His followers to deny themselves (Mk. 8:34), so the apostle insists that, after the example of Christ Himself, it is our Christian duty ‘to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves’ (Rom. 15:1)

. He who said: ‘I am among you as the servant (Lk. 22:27), and performed the menial task of washing His disciples’ feet (Jn. 13:4)’ is He who, according to Paul, ‘took the form of a slave’ (Phil. 11. 7). In a word, when Paul wishes to commend to his readers all those moral graces which adorn the Christ of the Gospels he does so in language like this: ‘Put on the Lord Jesus Christ’ (Rom. 13:14).

He’s not quoting the Gospels because the Gospels had not been written yet. He was quoting “Oral Tradition”.

 

[djrakowski]

I fail to see Titus calling him "Father Paul".

You MUST be kidding - we don’t see Titus calling him *anything *in Titus, since Paul is the one writing to Titus!

Let’s go through the logic of this: an adult male refers to another adult male as his child in the faith. When an adult male refers to another adult male as his spiritual child, that implies spiritual fatherhood.

So, is it OK then for someone to call another a spiritual child (which logically implies spiritual fatherhood), as long as the spiritual child doesn’t refer to his spiritual father as ‘father?’ I repeat - you MUST be kidding!

What’s so difficult about this?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

OK. This isn’t new Testament, but my personal all time favorite is Elisha’s farewell to Elijah as he ascends in the fiery chariot:

“My father! My father!” (2Kg 2:12)

Yes good one mercy…

“My father, my father, the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!”
Since at this point they were previously seperated I’d venture to say he may not have been calling to elijah rather crying out of fright and loneliness.
But yeah it is one case you could argue out of the whole bible where someone is addressed directly as father and it is not addressed to our Father in heaven.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

You MUST be kidding - we don’t see Titus calling him *anything *in Titus, since Paul is the one writing to Titus!

Let’s go through the logic of this: an adult male refers to another adult male as his child in the faith. When an adult male refers to another adult male as his spiritual child, that implies spiritual fatherhood.

So, is it OK then for someone to call another a spiritual child (which logically implies spiritual fatherhood), as long as the spiritual child doesn’t refer to his spiritual father as ‘father?’ I repeat - you MUST be kidding!

What’s so difficult about this?

What did Christ mean in Matt 23:

 

[clmowry]

And what about the other cases?

Chuck

Yes good one mercy…

“My father, my father, the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!”
Since at this point they were previously seperated I’d venture to say he may not have been calling to elijah rather crying out of fright and loneliness.
But yeah it is one case you could argue out of the whole bible where someone is addressed directly as father and it is not addressed to our Father in heaven.

 

[djrakowski]

What did Christ mean in Matt 23:

Clearly, something other than what you think He meant. The apostles, whom he chose directly, referred either directly or by implication, to spiritual fatherhood. The Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, saw fit to include scriptures referring to spiritual fatherhood in the canon of scripture, and you think your new insistence (since the Reformation, anyways) trumps the understanding of the apostles?

I’d say this thread has pretty much run its course, my Catholic brethren and sisteren

 

[hosemonkey]

myfavoritmartin doesn’t get it, he’s a protestant. Can you say “invincibly ignorant”?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

. And Yes, reading the OT can make you Wise for salvation.

See mercygate, its all I was saying is scripture can make you wise unto salvation…heisenburg even agrees, now…Do you?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

myfavoritmartin doesn’t get it, he’s a protestant. Can you say “invincibly ignorant”?

Lovely!
I’ll give you my left cheek now…
In HIS grace and love!
Simon