Homosexuality and God's plan for those who are gay

[Trident_H]

Simple Definition of glorify
: to make (something) seem much better or more important than it really is

As I stated: “Yes. Gay Pride parades, legalizing same sex “marriage,” the secular media’s increasing portrayal that same sex relationships are moral are signs that our society is promoting (and in the case of gay pride parades and media) glorifying the sin of engaging in same sex relationships.”

I think it’s a fair word. Gay pride parades, legalizing same sex marriage, and the secular media’s portrayal of same sex relationships promote acceptance of a sin by making it seem that committing such a sin is something to be proud of.

That being said if you don’t agree, that’s fine. At this point we would just be arguing semantics.

I’d have to agree with this mostly. I mean what I see now at pride parades is sort of how I’d see a big parade of alcoholics proudly carrying around their drink of choice. Acceptance is one thing. I mean I get that pride is push back for having had to keep quiet so long. This I see. But walking down the street in your underwear has sort of taken that gathered view and pushed it too far forward. So that’s where I drop off. I mean I’ll support you as a brother. But I won’t cheer you on as you run towards the bulls. Instead of away from them.

 

[2PT3]

I know “gay” is a tricky word on CAF, but I use it as most people my age generaly use it: having (exclusive or dominant) same-sex attraction. So that first.

I just had a thought I’ve never considered before. It would be one thing, perhaps more easily understood, to say that those who are not attracted to members of the opposite sex just ought not get married. Marriage is no requirement - certainly no requirement for happiness or even ultimate fulfillment in Heaven. So no real loss there! If there is no desire for that kind of relationship with the opposite sex, there is no real harm.

However, with the case of homosexual persons, it’s not just a lack of attraction or ability to relate in certain ways to the opposite sex. It’s that; but it is, additionally, the deep desires and wishes to be in relationship with someone of the same sex. In other words, the same attractions, desires, and human feelings for a relationship are present for a gay person. Just not the right person… In the view of the Catholic Church.

This way of thinking makes me wonder more as to what God’s plan is for the gay person. For, to restate quickly, the gay person does not only have a lack of desire and feelings to marry someone (of the opposite sex). They have, in addition, the added state of desiring and wanting to be in union with someone of the same sex.

There are many heterosexual people who deeply desire to marry but cannot find the right person. They too are called to a life of chastity. This isn’t a “gay only” issue.

 

[at9009]

There are many heterosexual people who deeply desire to marry but cannot find the right person. They too are called to a life of chastity. This isn’t a “gay only” issue.

From my previous comment:

With that, a gay/SSA person in many cases is not called for marriage yet society treats marriage as the evidence of a person ‘growing up.’ So the person ultimately ends up feeling stuck. They see friends getting married and staring families while they are still in the same ‘stage’ with no prospects of that ever changing. Add on to that as friends marry and have children, they often have less time for their single friend so they often end up feeling even more alone (not anyone’s fault but just an effect of life sometimes).

This issue with marriage idolatry also affects other issues as many who end up divorced are willing to compromise and remarry because ‘they can’t possibly live alone.’

So when the issue affects them a bit differently than a straight person who though hasn’t found a spouse at least can have the thought of finding a spouse in the future (though they to deal with the same issues of loneliness, etc). Additionally, you will find a lot more compassion and support for the straight single person while the gay/ssa person often feels like they can’t even talk about their issues of loneliness.

Not trying to challenge your point or anything but it’s a bit like comparing apples and oranges. A better comparison would be a person who went through a divorce and cannot receive an annulment.

 

[2PT3]

From my previous comment:

So when the issue affects them a bit differently than a straight person who though hasn’t found a spouse at least can have the thought of finding a spouse in the future (though they to deal with the same issues of loneliness, etc). Additionally, you will find a lot more compassion and support for the straight single person while the gay/ssa person often feels like they can’t even talk about their issues of loneliness.

Not trying to challenge your point or anything but it’s a bit like comparing apples and oranges. A better comparison would be a person who went through a divorce and cannot receive an annulment.

Agreed. Society is messed up.

 

[kdbueno]

Homosexuality is a matter of the state of the mind. Once you’ve changed (metanoia) you will feel awesome about a profoundly correct decision to be Catholic again.

 

[on_the_hill]

a profoundly correct decision to be Catholic again.

As if being Catholic and being gay are mutually exclusive states of being.

 

[catholic1seeks]

The situation concerning LGBTQ people is so difficult to deal with until you put yourselves in their shoes, then things begin to clarify.

Again:

The situation concerning LGBTQ people is so difficult to deal with until you put yourselves in their shoes, then things begin to clarify.

 

[catholic1seeks]

None of that is possible for gay people in the Catholic Church. You don’t date. You don’t entertain any notions of a partnership of any kind, much less marriage. You can certainly form friendships with other gay people, but you may be encouraged to cut that friendship off if it feels as though it is leading to something more. Gay people can’t entertain, hope for, pray for the type of romantic relationship that not only can you, but that your whole community can support you in finding.

I have a lot of gay friends and have heard their stories, and I appreciate you empathizing in the way you have, but there are others on this thread who think that gay people don’t have it harder than anyone else. Some men compare staying faithful to their wives as a equivalent to the life long celibacy that is just expected of gay people. It’s incredibly insensitive and lacking in the sympathy they always claim to have, but completely lack. I am not suggesting that of you, but I think it’s important to recognize that the burden the Catholic Church puts on gay people is much more than generally acknowledged here on CAF.

None of that is possible for gay people in the Catholic Church. You don’t date. You don’t entertain any notions of a partnership of any kind, much less marriage. You can certainly form friendships with other gay people, but you may be encouraged to cut that friendship off if it feels as though it is leading to something more. Gay people can’t entertain, hope for, pray for the type of romantic relationship that not only can you, but that your whole community can support you in finding.

I have a lot of gay friends and have heard their stories, and I appreciate you empathizing in the way you have, but there are others on this thread who think that gay people don’t have it harder than anyone else. Some men compare staying faithful to their wives as a equivalent to the life long celibacy that is just expected of gay people. It’s incredibly insensitive and lacking in the sympathy they always claim to have, but completely lack. I am not suggesting that of you, but I think it’s important to recognize that the burden the Catholic Church puts on gay people is much more than generally acknowledged here on CAF.

Thank you.

 

[kozlosap]

None of that is possible for gay people in the Catholic Church. You don’t date. You don’t entertain any notions of a partnership of any kind, much less marriage. You can certainly form friendships with other gay people, but you may be encouraged to cut that friendship off if it feels as though it is leading to something more. Gay people can’t entertain, hope for, pray for the type of romantic relationship that not only can you, but that your whole community can support you in finding.

I have a lot of gay friends and have heard their stories, and I appreciate you empathizing in the way you have, but there are others on this thread who think that gay people don’t have it harder than anyone else. Some men compare staying faithful to their wives as a equivalent to the life long celibacy that is just expected of gay people. It’s incredibly insensitive and lacking in the sympathy they always claim to have, but completely lack. I am not suggesting that of you, but I think it’s important to recognize that the burden the Catholic Church puts on gay people is much more than generally acknowledged here on CAF.

Thank you.

thank you for articulating what many of us have failed to do even though we have tried.

 

[catholic1seeks]

To get back to the main topic:

However, with the case of homosexual persons, it’s not just a lack of attraction or ability to relate in certain ways to the opposite sex. It’s that; but it is, additionally, the deep desires and wishes to be in relationship with someone of the same sex. In other words, the same attractions, desires, and human feelings for a relationship are present for a gay person. Just not the right person… In the view of the Catholic Church.

I am wondering if we can dialogue together about God’s plan and design. I understand and accept that God has designed a world with natural (physical) evils. Sin and moral evils come from free will. But various physical realities that lead to pain, suffering, and such are built into nature. The catechism says that God made the world in the state of journeying toward ultimate perfection, even though God is capable of making a different kind of world. We know one day there will be no trials and suffering, according to faith.

Call homosexuality an orientation, or a tendency, or a disordered condition. The debate surrounding “are people born gay?” is to get God off the hook. But the fact is that plenty of people are born with conditions they ought not have. It’s the consequence of natural processes built into the universe. I see no reason why homosexual attraction is not just one other consequence of natural processes.

The issue is heightened, though, when we classify homosexual attraction has a tendency to sin. Why do people have such a condition that makes them prone to sin? Why are we designed in such a way? If one were to bring up the Fall or Original Sin, I would recommend my other current thread in the Apologetics section.

 

[at9009]

Homosexuality is a matter of the state of the mind. Once you’ve changed (metanoia) you will feel awesome about a profoundly correct decision to be Catholic again.

Absolutely have no idea what you mean. One can be Catholic and still be same sex attracted and thus deal with homosexuality. It is the acts that are considered sinful not the inclination or temptation. You can’t just will away the types of things that tempt us or will away a particular cross you carry. God may remove a person’s cross in their life but there is no promise. He promises to give us the strength to resist temptation but not to remove it.

 

[jjr9]

The concept and myth of “the homosexual person”?

An LGBT orthodoxy??!!

:banghead:

An “orthodoxy that demands acceptance of their view with no tolerance of dissent”?

Wait, now that one sounds familiar…

.

You have not and cannot show substantive reason or harmony with the Sacred Deposit of Faith to
show the mythical “homosexual person” is real.

God bless

 

[at9009]

You have not and cannot show substantive reason or harmony with the Sacred Deposit of Faith to
show the mythical “homosexual person” is real.

God bless

Once again, I understand and respect your desire to talk and debate about your particular perspective and belief. However, this is kind of distracting from the main topic of this thread. I’d suggest opening up a new post to discuss this so you can have a focused discussion on your desired topic and not distract from the OP’s intended post. God bless.

 

[at9009]

To get back to the main topic:

I am wondering if we can dialogue together about God’s plan and design. I understand and accept that God has designed a world with natural (physical) evils. Sin and moral evils come from free will. But various physical realities that lead to pain, suffering, and such are built into nature. The catechism says that God made the world in the state of journeying toward ultimate perfection, even though God is capable of making a different kind of world. We know one day there will be no trials and suffering, according to faith.

Do you mean like what particular vocations are open to people with this particular cross since many of the traditional ones are necessarily open to most of them?

 

[jjr9]

Once again, I understand and respect your desire to talk and debate about your particular perspective and belief. However, this is kind of distracting from the main topic of this thread. I’d suggest opening up a new post to discuss this so you can have a focused discussion on your desired topic and not distract from the OP’s intended post. God bless.

I understand that you cannot present substantive reason or harmony with the Sacred Deposit of Faith to
show the mythical “homosexual person” is real. The topic presupposes the mythical “homosexual person”
is real a false premise.

God bless

 

[catholic1seeks]

I understand that you cannot present substantive reason or harmony with the Sacred Deposit of Faith to
show the mythical “homosexual person” is real. The topic presupposes the mythical “homosexual person”
is real a false premise.

God bless

Hey hey.
I am not familiar with your views or your other posts, but just curious - what exactly are you getting at? Is it the term? I’m fine calling gay people something else. But usually people say “homosexual person” to identify a person with Same-sex attraction as fundemanetally and primarily a human person made in the image of God, and not just “a homosexual” (although I don’t see a problem with that identification, either). Homosexual in “homosexual person” acts as an adjective identifying those individuals with primarily or exclusive attraction to members of the same sex.

Whatever term you want to use, the fact is that there are people who are gay.
Who have un-chosen same-sex attraction. The catechism says this.

 

[Rau]

Hey hey.
I am not familiar with your views or your other posts, but just curious - what exactly are you getting at? Is it the term? I’m fine calling gay people something else. But usually people say “homosexual person” to identify a person with Same-sex attraction as fundemanetally and primarily a human person made in the image of God, and not just “a homosexual” (although I don’t see a problem with that identification, either). Homosexual in “homosexual person” acts as an adjective identifying those individuals with primarily or exclusive attraction to members of the same sex.

If you search jjr9’s posting history, you’ll discover 100% of his posts are on the identical subject.

Whatever term you want to use, the fact is that there are people who are gay.
Who have un-chosen same-sex attraction. The catechism says this.

The Catechism in its draft edition said “they don’t choose it”, and I think we both know what that meant. That phrase is gone now - and I presume the reason is the potential for ambiguity. While no one “considers the options and chooses to experience SSA”, numerous persons *choose *to embrace SSA (that is, pursue as proper the acts to which they are attracted).

 

[dskysmine]

To assert that one knows what God’s plans for someone else are is very presumptuous.
I am married and 30 years old and I still pray that God helps me find out what His “plan” is for me.

I would like to propose a comparison to Mozart’s feces fetishism, not because they are necessarily the same, but because I want to prove that we are all in a fallen state and even the most brilliant minds in our world are affected by sin.
Mozart’s fetishism strikes me as appropriate because in a way as fallen humans we all have some attachment to sin, even if the object of our desire is as “strange” as feces.

People that have SSA are affected by a different kind of “fetishism”, the object of their desire is the person of the same sex. I myself have my own “fetishes” that draw me away from God.
They may be more or less prevalent, but we all know that we are fallen and must seek God’s Grace.
In the same way the Church advises particularly the people that suffer from this particular kind of attraction.

I think it’s also disingenuous to say that all our “crosses” are the same. In the same way that God gives more coins to one servant than the other in the Gospel stories, each of us is also given different challenges. Therefore we, differently challenged, will produce different amounts of fruits from our labor.
Let us glorify God in each one’s own way, and remember that we can offer Him our struggles as we believe that His Grace can cover all.

God bless,
D.

 

[on_the_hill]

If you search jjr9’s posting history, you’ll discover 100% of his posts are on the identical subject.

And which are tangential to this thread.

We could move onto the tangent of discussing whether or not God has a “plan” for us as individuals.

 

[at9009]

I understand that you cannot present substantive reason or harmony with the Sacred Deposit of Faith to
show the mythical “homosexual person” is real. The topic presupposes the mythical “homosexual person”
is real a false premise.

God bless

Talking with you is liking trying to talk to a brick wall. You refuse to consider any one’s counterpoint and just resay your faulty premise. So trying to talk with you is no longer productive for me and I don’t honestly feel like wasting my time. That being said, it is kind of disrespectful of you to try and hijack every thread related to SSA issues to talk about your particular topic. That is a problem. You can have your view and it can be discussed here. However for you to go into almost every thread and try to push it to your particular chosen topic is not how this type of forum should work.

There is no reason to doubt a homosexual person can exist. We live in a broken world and that brokedness manifests in many different ways. You seem to feel you have the right to deny the experiences of many faithful Catholics who have pretty much exclusive same sex sexual attraction just because you don’t like the fact that they exist. Calling it mythical is an attempt to make them disappear and to ignore the trials and tribulations they go through carrying their particular cross. Can some of them be attracted to woman and called to the vocation of marriage, it’s possible (and has occurred for some) but to act like they don’t exist is annoying and pretty uncharitable. You’re free to have your opinion and call me wrong, whatever. I’m going to stick with the Church on this one. God bless. If you wish to further discuss your particular topic, I would suggest opening a new thread and not distract from the original intention of this thread.