Homosexuality and God's plan for those who are gay

[steve_b]

I know “gay” is a tricky word on CAF, but I use it as most people my age generaly use it: having (exclusive or dominant) same-sex attraction. So that first.

I just had a thought I’ve never considered before. It would be one thing, perhaps more easily understood, to say that those who are not attracted to members of the opposite sex just ought not get married. Marriage is no requirement - certainly no requirement for happiness or even ultimate fulfillment in Heaven. So no real loss there! If there is no desire for that kind of relationship with the opposite sex, there is no real harm.

However, with the case of homosexual persons, it’s not just a lack of attraction or ability to relate in certain ways to the opposite sex. It’s that; but it is, additionally, the deep desires and wishes to be in relationship with someone of the same sex. In other words, the same attractions, desires, and human feelings for a relationship are present for a gay person. Just not the right person… In the view of the Catholic Church.

This way of thinking makes me wonder more as to what God’s plan is for the gay person. For, to restate quickly, the gay person does not only have a lack of desire and feelings to marry someone (of the opposite sex). They have, in addition, the added state of desiring and wanting to be in union with someone of the same sex.

To answer the question raised, acting out sexually is NOT part of God’s plan for them. In fact it has terrible consequences. Just be be clear however, as one can see, gays aren’t being isolated. (links are operational)

• 1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 no sexually immoral πόρνοι , , nor idolaters, nor adulterers , nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders ]10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[joseie]

I have been following this thread on seeing the title.From the postings I feel that some relevant points/facts in this regard have not been discussed/brought up as below:
1.Homosexuality is not a birth defect .No male or female is born as homosexuals ,that is as somebody who will surely become a homosexual when grownup.Everybody is having some traces of homosexuality.For some it will be less,for others it will be more that’s all. If ,unfortunately the circumstances (both physical and spiritual ) during the growth of the second category individual are also adverse ,the tendency can further develop in them and they may eventually become homosexual.Once become homosexual, the reverse process is a bit diffcult, but not impossible.
2.They are to be considered as any other ‘not so nomal people’ such as say people too short,too long,too obese etc.This being the case why we should insist that God should have any special plan for them in preference to others?
3.Now about homosexuality itself. Whether heterosexual or homosexual the fact is that each still feel attraction and love towards people of the same or opposite sex respectively .The only thing is that the SEXUAL attraction is only towards opposite sex for heterosexual and towards same sex for homosexual. Thus how do others know whether one is a homosexual?.Not from the normal love and affection shown to the same sex people which as I said a heterosexual also may show, but from other explicitly sexual gestures and actions .If they control their feeling of sexual urge towards the same sex people no way to know that they are homosexual ?.Do not heterosexuals control such feeling towards opposite sex.?
4.The fact is that till recent past ,most homosexuals were lying low controlling such feelings and did not dare to come out in the open .With the support they could get from sympathetic people and some countries legalising SSM etc.they feel that they have a right to sexual enjoyment as in the case of others.
There is no harm to be a homosexual as long as one control (absolutely) the sexual feeling towards same sex people .The scriptures are clear in this regard.However such ‘good’ homosexuals are only atpar with heterosexuals who for some reason or other lead a chaste life, as the challenges in their life are similar.

 

[ahs]

3.Now about homosexuality itself. Whether heterosexual or homosexual, the fact is that each still feel attraction and love towards people of the same or opposite sex, respectively .The only thing is that the SEXUAL attraction is only towards opposite sex for heterosexual and towards same sex for homosexual. **Thus how do others know whether one is a homosexual? Not from the normal love and affection shown **to the same sex people which as I said a heterosexual also may show, but from other explicitly sexual gestures and actions. If they control their feeling of sexual urge towards the same sex people, [there’s] no way to know that they are homosexual. Do not heterosexuals control such feeling towards opposite sex?

YES!!! That!

 

[ahs]

…However, with the case of homosexual persons,** it’s not just a lack of attraction or ability to relate in certain ways to the opposite sex**. It’s that; but it is, additionally, the deep desires and wishes to be in relationship with someone of the same sex. In other words, the same attractions, desires, and human feelings for a relationship are present for a gay person. Just not the right person… In the view of the Catholic Church.

Hence the heavy burden which the Church recognizes they carry. They desire relationship, but happen to be attracted, sexually, to the same sex. Is it possible to have a fulfilling life with someone you don’t want to have sex with? (I believe it is.)
Is it possible to have a fulfilling life without having sex with the person with whom you wish to have sex? (I believe it is.)
“Sex” should not be the end-all-be-all to a relationship.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

It’s not really the same. A straight man has the potential and hope to enter into a relationship and be married. A gay man does not have that hope. Even more, the former’s state is considered natural, and the latter’s is disordered. So the straight man has the potential to form something good while the gay person’s wishes are deemed as immoral.

Forget the “disordered” thing per se, for the time being. (If anything, it is different from “immoral”.)

Lusting for unchastity is immoral for Christ’s people.

I’m with At9009’s last paragraph, very strongly.

“Shacking up” is seen universally as a way to get round the fact that friendship is now totally out.

We’re all totally bananas because we have been absolutely cold shouldered regardless of whether we are “inclined” or whatever.

People will join a cult just so they can sit next to someone for an hour.

I’m 61 and still single as yet.

We are all called to avoid cultivating a “sexual addiction” in our thought life.

Do you see the balance?

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

… The issue is heightened, though, when we classify homosexual attraction as a tendency to sin. Why do people have such a condition that makes them prone to sin? …

1. Homosexual sexual attraction is no more or different a tendency to temptation to sin than other-sex sexual ditto.

(Also note addition of “temptation to”.)

It is unfriendly neighbours and fellow parishioners that push single people (of any “inclination” or none) over edges. And cults that rescue them.

1. I wonder if same-sex longings occur if one was pregnant with one’s own twin and therefore had a small cyst inside one - therefore one was used to proximity. Just a thought!

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

… I am wondering if we can dialogue together about God’s plan and design. … We know one day there will be no trials and suffering, according to faith.

Call homosexuality an orientation, or a tendency, or a disordered condition. …

1. As per At9009’s no. 55, if you are talking about vocations, the vocation the Church is most desperately short of is the lay vocation.

You and I are called to bear people company and to intercede. I held a few prayer meetings here and now I am going to someone else’s for it. One doesn’t need the priest’s permission.

1. Lastly, homosexuality is homosexual actions (including purposeflly cultivated addictions of mind).

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

… Some men compare staying faithful to their wives as a equivalent to the life long celibacy that is just expected of gay people. It’s incredibly insensitive and lacking in the sympathy they always claim to have, but completely lack. I am not suggesting that of you, but I think it’s important to recognize that the burden the Catholic Church puts on gay people is much more than generally acknowledged here on CAF.

I know a lot of married men who are completely useless to me because their wife is the only human being they ever bothered to make friends with.

Then the priest holds them up as “Catholic”.

Therefore, when us lonely singles hear the word “Catholic” the only thing possible to come to our minds is “unfriendly”. Of course this is an impossible burden being put on us!

 

[jjr9]

I have been following this thread on seeing the title.From the postings I feel that some relevant points/facts in this regard have not been discussed/brought up as below:
1.Homosexuality is not a birth defect .No male or female is born as homosexuals ,that is as somebody who will surely become a homosexual when grownup.Everybody is having some traces of homosexuality.For some it will be less,for others it will be more that’s all. If ,unfortunately the circumstances (both physical and spiritual ) during the growth of the second category individual are also adverse ,the tendency can further develop in them and they may eventually become homosexual.Once become homosexual, the reverse process is a bit diffcult, but not impossible.
2.They are to be considered as any other ‘not so nomal people’ such as say people too short,too long,too obese etc.This being the case why we should insist that God should have any special plan for them in preference to others?
3.Now about homosexuality itself. Whether heterosexual or homosexual the fact is that each still feel attraction and love towards people of the same or opposite sex respectively .The only thing is that the SEXUAL attraction is only towards opposite sex for heterosexual and towards same sex for homosexual. Thus how do others know whether one is a homosexual?.Not from the normal love and affection shown to the same sex people which as I said a heterosexual also may show, but from other explicitly sexual gestures and actions .If they control their feeling of sexual urge towards the same sex people no way to know that they are homosexual ?.Do not heterosexuals control such feeling towards opposite sex.?
4.The fact is that till recent past ,most homosexuals were lying low controlling such feelings and did not dare to come out in the open .With the support they could get from sympathetic people and some countries legalising SSM etc.they feel that they have a right to sexual enjoyment as in the case of others.
There is no harm to be a homosexual as long as one control (absolutely) the sexual feeling towards same sex people .The scriptures are clear in this regard.However such ‘good’ homosexuals are only atpar with heterosexuals who for some reason or other lead a chaste life, as the challenges in their life are similar.

I believe that exclusive SSA aka the “homosexual person” is a myth. People have freewill and can do
and believe what they would like.

I cannot tell you what brings anyone to any particular person to any specific temptation. Do you believe
if someone has come believe them-self a “homosexual person” and turns to the Lord to reform their life
God is not capable of supplying sufficient Grace for that person to overcome the temptation and come to
a sexuality that is pleasing to the Lord? I do not believe SSA pleasing to the Lord.

God bless

 

[Rau]

I believe that exclusive SSA aka the “homosexual person” is a myth. People have freewill and can do
and believe what they would like.

I cannot tell you what brings anyone to any particular person to any specific temptation. Do you believe
if someone has come believe them-self a “homosexual person” and turns to the Lord to reform their life
God is not capable of supplying sufficient Grace for that person to overcome the temptation and come to
a sexuality that is pleasing to the Lord? I do not believe SSA pleasing to the Lord.

God bless

Chastity is pleasing to the Lord. Unless one engages in immoral sexual acts, no reform is required. As to whether one will experience sexual attractions as nature intended, who can say?

 

[joseie]

Yes ,as pointed out in the posts above immoral sexual acts whether they are by homosexual or heterosexual can’t be justified .The sexually related actions of homosexuals are clearly againt the body,nature and God. Oh,no,poor ,it is not their fault etc.are lame excuses ,but which unfortunately has started gainig support which inturn appears to have lightened their guilty conscience also .To become chaste is not a more difficult task for them as compared to heterosexuals ,if they try for it seeking God’s help.The words of Pope Francis (which iorincally is quoted by them as giving them support) is relevant in this connection which is “Who am I to judge them if they seek God ?”

 

[Rau]

…To become [remain?] chaste is not a more difficult task for them as compared to heterosexuals ,if they try for it seeking God’s help…

Perhaps it is not the “remaining chaste” piece that is more difficult, but other aspects of socialising that most of us take for granted. Single people normally expect to be able to socialise one on one with persons of the opposite sex, (in a ritualistic kind of way) with a view to discovering a possible romantic attachment. The person who find himself with romantic attractions to only the same sex is best advised to go without this form of social activity (given that persons of interest to them are of the same sex). I think that is a further challenge. Arguably, it would be easier to be asexual, than of homosexual inclination.

 

[joseie]

Perhaps it is not the “remaining chaste” piece that is more difficult, but other aspects of socialising that most of us take for granted. Single people normally expect to be able to socialise one on one with persons of the opposite sex, (in a ritualistic kind of way) with a view to discovering a possible romantic attachment. The person who find himself with romantic attractions to only the same sex is best advised to go without this form of social activity (given that persons of interest to them are of the same sex). I think that is a further challenge. Arguably, it would be easier to be asexual, than of homosexual inclination.

Agreed that inrespect of socialising etc a Chaste Homosexual(CHo) find it difficult and feel isolated and alone.But is it not comparable to the position of a chaste heterosexual (CHe)also? Have not we observed the sad plight of some CHe s expecially when they become a bit older ? In both cases the key to keep away worries and to move forward with confidence and hope is submission to God.But the easiest and covenient way found by homosexuals is to be in company with other homosexuals sharing their comparable feelings and enjoying their sexual fantasies.That is between the two choices before the homosexuals,namely be a chaste
Homosexual and be in submission to God or continue as homosexual enjoying the pleasures and company of other homosexuals many fall into the trap of the second choice. We can only pray God that they may be shown the correct way.

 

[Rau]

Agreed that in respect of socialising etc a Chaste Homosexual(CHo) find it difficult and feel isolated and alone. But is it not comparable to the position of a chaste heterosexual (CHe)also?

In your first sentence you agree with me, then you disagree in your 2nd sentence! I don’t think you can have it both ways.

 

[joseie]

In your first sentence you agree with me, then you disagree in your 2nd sentence! I don’t think you can have it both ways.

Sorry,I can’t follow what you mean?

 

[at9009]

Sorry,I can’t follow what you mean?

What they meant (I believe) is in your first sentence you agreed that it is hard for chaste same sex attracted people. Then in your very next line and the rest of the comment, you basically arguing (or seem to argue) that it is harder for a chaste heterosexual single person. I believe that is the source of their confusion.

 

[joseie]

What they meant (I believe) is in your first sentence you agreed that it is hard for chaste same sex attracted people. Then in your very next line and the rest of the comment, you basically arguing (or seem to argue) that it is harder for a chaste heterosexual single person. I believe that is the source of their confusion.

Yes I meant that only.My point,inresponse to the view that it is harder for SSA, was that the same is the position for chaste heterosexuals also.There is no contradiction or scope for confusion.
.

 

[at9009]

Yes I meant that only.My point,inresponse to the view that it is harder for SSA, was that the same is the position for chaste heterosexuals also.There is no contradiction or scope for confusion.
.

Okay that wasn’t entirely clear. A counterpoint is that chaste heterosexual person often receives more sympathy for their struggles and can talk about their struggles while the chaste SSA person may not have that option (Some are not sympathetic and have issues with people with same sex attraction, they are sometimes pushed to be closeted and basically struggle on their own by some, often their support structure isn’t as great within the church, and the chaste heterosexual person still has the hope for a future spouse in most cases). A better apples to apples comparison would be a person who went through a divorce against their will and cannot receive an annulment. In that case, that person like the SSA person are most likely called to a celibate life with little hope that the situation will change. But, instead of comparing crosses, I think a better focus should be on how to help a person carry it and continue on in their personal battles (otherwise it can easily descend into a fight about my struggle is harder than yours or whatever and that is pretty counterproductive).

Side note, I think part of the problem, might be the formatting. It might be easier if you space out your comments more so that separate points are different paragraphs. It was kind of hard to read when its all jumbled together. Not sure if you are aware, you can preview your post before you submit to see how it looks and edit the formatting from there (Hopefully helpful tip, if not feel free to ignore it)

 

[kdbueno]

One’s sexual orientation is proven according to scientific truth.

 

[jjr9]

Yes ,as pointed out in the posts above immoral sexual acts whether they are by homosexual or heterosexual can’t be justified .The sexually related actions of homosexuals are clearly againt the body,nature and God. Oh,no,poor ,it is not their fault etc.are lame excuses ,but which unfortunately has started gainig support which inturn appears to have lightened their guilty conscience also .To become chaste is not a more difficult task for them as compared to heterosexuals ,if they try for it seeking God’s help.The words of Pope Francis (which iorincally is quoted by them as giving them support) is relevant in this connection which is “Who am I to judge them if they seek God ?”

Do you believe some people have an exclusive SSA? I do not.
If you do what informs that belief for you?

God bless