Homosexuality, marriage and use of condoms

[Guest1]

Thank you for taking the time to respond to me.

What draws you to Catholicism if you don’t mind me asking?

Do you have thoughts about converting because you’ve studied it and believe it is true?

 

[AlexisTherese]

@Guest1

I believe everything it teaches but the idea of homosexuality within marriage a sin. What frightens me is having a child who may grow up with that, that their shame may then leave to extreme pain or not even wanting to be here anymore. I am very frustrated with this teaching, I believe people who agree with the teaching are good logical people, who clearly understand something I do not yet every time I question I can never come to terms with the teaching. I am a very sympathetic person, I care a lot about the feelings of people and I fear the worst that this teaching can cause. The most I get from religious people is, you’re 20, you don’t need to worry about having gay children… Yet I see the knock on effects, and they can be very bad. I haven’t told my brothers I want to become Catholic as they’re not adults, I would fear they would be effected by this teaching also.

I was brought up CofE mixed with Catholicism, but I mostly went to CofE. Growing up I had a great fascination with saints and Mary, I believed that abortion was just awful, I even liked the idea of confession when I found out about it. I just never took the leap into it as I read heavily on other religions too. (I am a massive reader into culture and religion). It was ultimately my experience in the Catholic Church, the profound feeling that God loved me and I have never been alone - just like everyone else. There is the other half of me, growing up I became more and more left leaning, which is not a bad thing. I am very supportive of the LGBT community. I live in England so abortion and contraception is not really in our politics so I never really put much thought into it but I don’t share this opinion with my friends. I love God, I want to do the right thing, I know there are other churches that believe it is not a sin but then I would have to leave so many things that I love. Even simple acts of crossing yourself, the rosary to bigger things like the Eucharist. I fell into Catholicism and it was amazing, I pushed my feelings aside about the views on gay marriage thinking I would understand, I still don’t - three years later. I considered RCIA without understanding it and didn’t go as I can’t stand there and say I believe in something I do not. I even managed to accept and love it’s teachings on being open to life - which is a big one for someone who had never heard of that in her 20yrs of life. I respect the church, I do not want to change it. I just want to know why a good church would teach something that fills me with fear and guilt. Just like everyone, I want to do the right thing and I believe everyone has a good heart, I just want to see why this is something you believe in.

 

[AlexisTherese]

I mean outdated as we have found it is not a choice to be gay. That gay people can love one another as much as I love my partner and that marriage does not have to equal having children.

 

[Guest1]

It’s great that you’re attracted to Catholicism in appearance if that be the case.

But I ask that you build your foundation of faith in Catholicism on a rock and not sand.

If I was an Atheist and asked you why do you believe The Trinity is real would you be able to give me an answer that’s not blind faith?

 

[Guest1]

Please dont read what I said in a cruel tone.

 

[Delphinus]

Well then I’ll take outdated as being “within the last 1700 years of recent history.” The beliefs of these later years have not always been true for the majority culture. For the most part, non-judeo-christian cultures with few exceptions do not have a problem with homosexuality. It’s been around as long as people have been around.

I can completely relate to your previous post about your fear of having a child with homosexual attraction and feeling ostracized. I have a son who I love more than my own life. I accept that loving him means full well that some day he may come to me and tell me that he may experience attraction to the same sex. Everyone is someone’s baby and for me love is the greatest law. Love means doing two things: telling him I accept him no matter what he does or chooses. I don’t have to accept what he does (Lord knows I’m not accepting of the poopy diaper blowouts! haha) but I accept him, ALWAYS. And he is ALWAYS welcome with me. Love also means telling him hard truths. In the end, my belief is that God manifests his love in the sacraments. One of those sacraments is marriage between one man and one woman in the context of Christian sacrament. I don’t know why specifically, but I know I have experienced that in my own marriage. Do two homosexual people experience the same love for their spouse that I do? I don’t know. Maybe yes, maybe no. But experiencing love with another human, although good, is not the goal of my life. The only goal of my life is to find and love God completely. Marriage is one way I do that.

And this is what I’ll tell my baby if that day ever comes. Yes, many people will ostracize homosexuals cruelly. Many people ostracize people who are “different” whether its for faith, skin color, clothes they wear, music they listen to, etc. It seems to be something we humans are pretty good at, sadly.

In short, homosexuals may very well experience the same love for each other. I can’t say it’s the same because I have not experienced both. But whether it’s the same or not doesn’t matter in my life. When God is the only thing that really matters, marriage is only a means to know him more. If two people aren’t in the marriage to know God more, then there are bigger problems in that marriage than the gender of the spouses.

I don’t think the church teaching is to label those who are homosexual as “second tier” or “bad people” but rather to prescribe the context for a marriage that truly reflects God as he is meant to be seen, and that is a heterosexual marriage. Gender, sexuality, and marriage is about SO much more than sex.

 

[Guest1]

When you don’t understand a teaching that’s okay. Maybe that’s when to have faith in God and that He knows more than us.

If God is real and the Catholic Church why is He teaching through it (if that be the case) the teaching that she has on SSA and divorce remarriage?

 

[Delphinus]

When you don’t understand a teaching that’s okay. Maybe that’s when to have faith in God and that He knows more than us.

I want to add my voice in agreement to this! I don’t fully understand/agree with the church teaching on certain kinds of contraception. However, I have made a choice to follow the church in obedience. To this day I can’t explain it, but experiencing sexuality in marriage without contraception has caused a certain sanctity to fall upon sexuality in our marriage in a way that…well, to be weird…it almost becomes a form of prayer. My husband and I are closer, and we are both closer to God. Yes, we still LOGICALLY disagree with the church, but our hearts have seen the benefits and that’s enough for us to drop the issue and be obedient.

 

[AlexisTherese]

Sorry I just felt if I went biblical in my explanation it would be pandering as you already know this stuff, as a Catholic. Also, I don’t think it’s wrong to go with your gut, follow your heart and I think that’s where God pulls us the most.

I do need to go to bible study but again deciding on being Protestant or Catholic at the moment so talking to atheists is not my kinda thing at the moment, I can’t witness until I agree with the teachings.

So that would be a hard one to explain anyways? Trying to get someone to understand monotheism when we talk about three persons, atheists are pretty big on logic? So I will try. The trinity is like a way for us to understand God, even though its very hard to. God is a mystery though so learning about the trinity can help us come closer to God as well as see Him within the Bible. It also helps us in worship. God the father, who is our Creator/Lord. God, the Son Jesus who came to Earth and lived with us and God the Holy Spirit who fills us. They’re all God but the Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Holy Spirit. It shows us the we must live like Jesus with the Holy Spirit within us.

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 28:19

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
2 Corinthians 13:14

 

[Delphinus]

I can’t witness until I agree with the teachings.

I want to politely disagree here. I don’t think everyone agrees with ALL the teachings ALL the time, be it through disagreement or ignorance, but Jesus didn’t say “Know and agree to all things, then go and make disciples of all nations…” no, he just said “Go!”

I find that my understanding of scripture, faith, and Tradition increase when I talk to others about it. Either I uncover gaps in my understanding or it encourages confidence in my heart for the things I believe.

 

[AlexisTherese]

I find that my understanding of scripture, faith, and Tradition increase when I talk to others about it

That’s what this whole thing is about, even though I’m probably upsetting people.

Jesus didn’t say “Know and agree to all things, then go and make disciples of all nations…” no, he just said “Go!”

The teaching on homosexuality is a big one and I can’t pretend.

 

[Guest1]

:sunflower:Well, a biblical argument could help bring souls to the Church, but… There’s the question of why believe in the bible? Why catholic vs Protestant canon?
Or even why Protestant or Catholicism?

Go after what is true @AlexisTherese
Before Protestantism existed what church was the correct Church to join? Was there one?

What Church has the correct teaching on the Eucharist?

If you do end up studying these things and it brings you to believe in Catholicism being the correct religion and Church started by Jesus…then what? If you gain such head and heart knowledge/belief…and you find yourself facing the SSA teaching…will you submit yourself/heart to God’s teaching?

What would you do if without a doubt Jesus appeared to you and confirmed the Church’s teachings?

Would you walk away?

( you don’t have to answer that personal question )

Maybe you could call up Trent Horn one day with your question on SSA and the Catholic Church’s teaching.

 

[AlexisTherese]

Thank you for the message, I feel like I am on the same level just not there yet.
I fear that telling a child that homosexuality is a sinful is conditional love. Even though God is meant to have unconditional love for us… I know it’s a big accusation that his teachings are unconditional but again in a consenting adult relationship where there is love, what harm is there.(Sin is what harms us but it does not harm someone to be in a consenting adult relationship.) Is this just an out of date teaching, us something I wonder and pretty much think.

 

[AlexisTherese]

What would you do if without a doubt Jesus appeared to you and confirmed the Church’s teachings?

Would you walk away?

I would not walk away, I don’t think anyone would really, even the toughest atheists.

I have prayed over and over, asking God what he wants me to do and it’s the only time I felt like He was silent. I just hope whatever happens I get to be with him, I am scared of making a mistake. I don’t believe I am saved through faith alone… I can’t just go into this, become Catholic and keep my faith private. I know once you are, then you must bring your children up in it. I would do this if I knew it would only affect me.

 

[Delphinus]

Thank you for the message, I feel like I am on the same level just not there yet.
I fear that telling a child that homosexuality is a sinful is conditional love. Even though God is meant to have unconditional love for us… I know it’s a big accusation that his teachings are unconditional but again in a consenting adult relationship where there is love, what harm is there.(Sin is what harms us but it does not harm someone to be in a consenting adult relationship.) Is this just an out of date teaching, us something I wonder and pretty much think.

The issue is that we (well, me if you are anything like me then you too!) tend to view sin as those things which immediately harm our body or mind. Sin is far worse than that. Sin is the distortion of ANYTHING to bring us away from God. using sexuality as an example, any couple that marries for any reason other than “I want to live out my life in service to this person in order to know God better” is missing the point.

Is anyone immediately harmed by two consenting adults who love each other doing that? No. Is the meaning of sexuality at that point distorted from how God meant it to be? In my opinion, and church teaching, yes. Frankly, I am just as guilty of this when I enter into the marital embrace with my own partner because we’re bored and have nothing else to do. We fail to see the true beauty of it.

The true devastation of sin isn’t that it hurts the body or mind of those who engage in it…that’s just the consequence of extreme (deadly) sin. No, it’s the distortion of the beauty of God in the things he created. Can homosexuals find love for one another and beauty in their own actions? Yes, very likely. Otherwise they wouldn’t do it. But does it bring them closer to God?

I fear that telling a child that homosexuality is a sinful is conditional love. Even though God is meant to have unconditional love for us

Only if sin deserves the end of love. It never, ever does. Ever. Love is meant to never end no matter what. Hosea is a good example of that teaching!

No, telling a child an action is going to distort their view of God’s love (sin), is no different than when I put dinner on my kiddo’s tray and warn him “Hot!” If he grabs it, he’s probably going to get hurt. I won’t love him any less, in fact if he grabs it and cries I’ll likely get closer to him to comfort him. I think the same applies here. God warns us of what can hurt us spiritually. But if we grab it? He draws closer to us in order to win us over despite our rejection of his warning.

 

[AlexisTherese]

I guess I just don’t understand why it is harmful. I see the teaching as harmful not homosexuality… Thank you for your patience.

When I read of homosexuals who are abstinent because of Catholicism, I am very sad for them and I know this is not how I am meant to react to this due to the teachings.

 

[Delphinus]

I guess I just don’t understand why it is harmful. I see the teaching as harmful not homosexuality… Thank you for your patience.

Thank you for thanking me…but I’m not being patient. I am truly LOVING this discussion. You are a real pleasure to talk to! You are kind, gracious, and open-minded. It’s rare to see.

So to be sure we are on the same page, the church teaches that homosexuality is an action that goes against God’s plan for sexuality. This is evident in the fact that homosexuality offers no openness to the possibility of life. Taken one step deeper, it’s not even true sex because the necessary parts for that union are simply not present. Same is true of a heterosexual couple who cannot have sex for whatever reason.

From a natural standpoint this references the idea that sexual attraction ONLY exists to find a suitable mate, genetically compatible with yourself, in order to produce healthy offspring. Attraction to the same sex renders reproduction utterly impossible so it is naturally disordered in that the reproduction function of sexuality is completely neutralized.

Because of this evidence it seems logical to conclude that God created sexuality to function in a very specific way. And in that context, he makes himself known.

The sin is the fact that we are engaging in something that He intended to make himself known in by taking him out of the equation. This is done though homosexuality, contraception, masturbation, or even in improper context or wrong desires in a heterosexual married couple. To single out homosexuals specifically is an error that people engage in to overlook their own shortcomings in this area. Lord knows, I’ve done it!

When I read of homosexuals who are abstinent because of Catholicism, I am very sad for them and I know this is not how I am meant to react to this due to the teachings.

This is projection. I struggle with this, honestly. Many people I know who are abstinent for this reason are truly happy with their choice and I am happy for them. It’s hard for me to see at my age, but marriage and sex isn’t the only way to find fulfillment in life. People more of my MILs age get it though…But seriously, it’s about knowing God. We all carry heavy crosses. You mentioned infertility…my husband and I struggled with this for many years until I had a treatment (surgery) to correct the problem. Childlessness was our cross to bear for a long time. It sucked, and it was sad, but Christ is so present even and most especially in suffering. No life is without suffering of some kind. I suffered as someone who longed for a baby. Now I suffer as someone who longs for a nap! (different kind, I know)

 

[AlexisTherese]

Basically, I just need to go to a patient Priest and talk about it… Hopefully he will have some time haha. Hopefully I can be Catholic without fully agreeing but understanding the teaching. The biggest question we have to face is am I doing this for God or something else… I don’t know what God actually thinks about this as I have been to Churches who believe gay marriage is okay.

 

[Delphinus]

God bless you in this! It’s not easy! I myself have issues with some things in the church right now. I have been seeing a spiritual director for it, and it’s not easy…especially since he is a priest and even getting an email response can take several weeks.

I love the way you think. “Am I doing this for God or something else.” I need to remember that one!

Hopefully I can be Catholic without fully agreeing but understanding the teaching.

My belief is absolutely yes. Do you agree with the Nicene Creed? Those are the truly “big issues”. In the debate I think the enemy distorts what’s truly important. I don’t agree with everything in the church right now, but I agree on the main points and submit in obedience and work towards holiness. I think that’s all anyone can expect. We don’t have to agree with EVERYTHING, just the main points, and work on the rest to understand it as God wants us to. <3

 

[AlexisTherese]

I believe in one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church
The only line, can I say this if I don’t agree with it’s teachings on homosexuality… I still say it at mass and methodist services.