Homosexuality, marriage and use of condoms

[Delphinus]

That line can be confusing. I used to be an Assemblies of God protestant. We said that line. The teaching on that is that you believe in the body of believers, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, to be the unified body of Christ on Earth working to do his will? It’s not actually referencing THE Catholic Church since that idea didn’t exist back when those words were written.

I pulled this from usccb:

" I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church."

It’s not capitalized, which means it’s meaning catholic as universal, not the “denomination.” So, in fact, our protestant brethren are included in that phrase. I find this an incredibly grace of God that even when things are tough I can still be honest. I believe in the body of believers, even if I don’t always agree with everything but I DO submit in obedience. God in his wisdom seems to allow for that as we grow in holiness.

 

[AlexisTherese]

I knew it was not capitalized, yet I did it hahaha. I have only seen it written out in a methodist church so I assumed it was capitalized in the Catholic church. What a goof I am…

 

[theCardinalbird]

that they’re not equal in marriage is problematic.

Not everyone is called to marriage though. Personally as a gay man who is Catholic, I love the Church’s teachings on marriage, and because I understand it and accept it, I defend it.

I’d also like to say that God is providing me with a love far greater than what I can find in a homosexual relationship. Also, if I could say it bluntly, sex is not the only love found on the planet, and people can live a life without sex

How does it hurt their souls?

Because it is a sin to commit homosexual acts

 

[QwertyGirl]

I am asking people to just help me understand and to maybe change my mind. I am a concerned person who is aware of the negative effects of growing up gay in the church and cannot see myself agreeing with the teachings on homosexuality.

You seem to already have a good understanding. I don’t think anyone here is going to be able to say something that you haven’t already heard. I don’t think they will be able to change your mind. Your views are based in your experience and understanding. They are valid.

 

[theCardinalbird]

I am a concerned person who is aware of the negative effects of growing up gay in the church and cannot see myself agreeing with the teachings on homosexuality

What negative effects?

 

[AlexisTherese]

It’s not that I believe love is only sex, just a loving life long commitment with someone is just something most grow up believing we will be in. I guess this isn’t clicking because I do not see homosexuality as a sin but I see refusal to allow homosexuals to get married as damaging.

 

[AlexisTherese]

Are we going to ignore the depression some young people go through due to religious conservative values?

 

[theCardinalbird]

just a loving life long commitment with someone is just something most grow up believing we will be in.

True. Though that doesn’t mean all will be in that kind of relationship. If I had to choose between a homosexual relationship and God, it would be God. I can take my longings and find other ways for them to be fulfilled.

Are we going to ignore the depression some young people go through due to religious conservative values?

No. But are we going to ignore those same sex attracted men and women who whove found freedom and peace from Catholic values? Aren’t they testament to the idea that there is another way to find love and fulfilment?

 

[goout]

I think it is dangerous to teach children this though, I would fear my child would grow up feeling ashamed of something they cannot help? Telling someone their love is an abomination when it is between two consenting adults to me is quite scary and damaging…

Don’t use the word abomination to describe love. Don’t use the word abomination to describe a person.
None of us like to have that word applied to us. It’s like a good meal: presentation is very important, in addition to the meal itself.

See the good in them, without condoning something out of order. God sees the goodness in us and values us as his children, and calls to follow him faithfully at the same time. This is a difficult part of the Christian call: to be patient with who we are, while knowing we are also called to be on The Way, to advance in holiness. All of us, not just gay people.

 

[AlexisTherese]

I think the nutrition is most important… I am not sure it’s a good thing for people, that’s all.

 

[goout]

I think the nutrition is most important… I am not sure it’s a good thing for people, that’s all.

The Church’s focus is not on condemning others, but calling us to see the good of marriage for what it is, and to be honest about that, and to affirm the good of marriage.

I have many close friends. I can only create human life with one of them. That union is unique. That is the Church’s focus.

This brings up a general point to consider:
morality always points to the good. It’s purpose is our beatitude. So when negative prohibitions are considered, we must know what the end result of the prohibition is steering us towards. And that is always something good. In this case, to have human existence and be able to love God.

 

[TheLittleLady]

That means that children are not owed respect and dignity? I don’s see how that is comparable with Christianity, or the simple milk of human compassion

 

[TheLittleLady]

teachings that they’re not equal in marriage

Yet, this is not the teaching of the Church.

God instituted marriage. While our society has taught all of us that marriage is the next logical step in romance, that marriage is about telling the world that you are committed to love this other person, that is a distorted view of marriage. It is the icing without the cake.

Marriage is not a right, it has certain requirements.

Using myself as an example, my dwarfism disqualifies me from many things. My type is so severe it disqualifies me from sports. As a teen I entered a beauty contest. The preliminary round was based on a photograph, essay, letters and a phone interview. Mine was a head and shoulders photograph and my features are pretty, I know how to use cosmetics and my hair was expertly done. My essay was excellent and I have a very pleasant speaking voice.

I was in 2nd place when the “real life” contest took place.

Arriving on time and sporting my best outfit, I showed up. I was immediately disqualified from the competition. Why? Because they had a height requirement. The women had to be at least X tall but no taller than Y. That was on the form, but, I was young and wanted to “show them”, so, I’d tried to enter a contest for which I was not qualified.

My lack of qualifications to be Miss Country Sunshine or to play in the WNBA or to be a competition ice skater or to be a police officer or any of these other things does not mean I am a bad person or that I am somehow “less” of a person. I simply have to find other things for which I am qualified.

Same goes for marriage. There are requirements to enter a marriage that is recognized by the Church. First, each person must be free to marry, they must be able to complete the marriage act in the manner which is ordered toward procreation, they must not be forced into the marriage, they must vow to lovingly open children, there are requirements. Two people of the same gender cannot fill those requirements, any legal document and ceremony cannot change the facts.

This does NOT mean that they are bad people, that they are somehow not equal in dignity, it does not mean that they cannot love each other and be the very best of friends. It does not mean they cannot give each other a power of attorney or leave their estate to the other person. Those are all legal mattes that may be handled through the courts.

Don’t let anyone tell you that the Church feels you are not equal in dignity because of your sexuality.

 

[TheLittleLady]

When I read of homosexuals who are abstinent because of Catholicism, I am very sad for them and I know this is not how I am meant to react to this due to the teachings.

It is part of compassion to be sad. I’ve seen people who have fallen in love, been deeply committed to one another and they have not been able to marry in the Church because of a prior marriage or because of permanent impotency, I am beyond sad for them.

Having sat with my arms around people who are devastated because they cannot marry their same sex partner, having wept with people who are not free to marry in the Church, frankly a person would have to have a heart of stone to be unmoved by their pain.

From your posts, I get the feeling you have come across some people who do not understand the teachings of the Church. Homosexuality is not a sin. In various threads I have posted the Church’s command that people with homosexuality are to be treated with deep respect and compassion. That we are to work to fight unjust discrimination against homosexual people.

Have you read Fr Martin’s book “Building Bridges”? Our Diocese did a series of discussions about this book. Out of that book grew a ministry! While I am very protective of my privacy, I will post a link to my Diocese newspaper because it is important for you to see that the Church is much more compassionate than the sum of her parts:

New group a welcome, safe place for LGBT Catholics, allies - Arkansas Catholic - September 25, 2018

Becoming Catholic does not mean that we stand up and promise to be cruel to people.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

I don’t know what God actually thinks about this as I have been to Churches who believe gay marriage is okay.

With respect, you do know what God thinks about marriage and sex outside marriage. You’ve acknowledged it several times. You disagree and think God’s word is outdated as you have said several times.

Any churches who teach that Gay marriage is OK has come to that conclusion of their own will. Their position is not based on the scriptures or tradition.

You have said a lot about how you feel and what you want. What about how God feels and what God wants? As you continue to consider your beliefs, reflect on this point.

 

[goout]

Basically, I just need to go to a patient Priest and talk about it… Hopefully he will have some time haha. Hopefully I can be Catholic without fully agreeing but understanding the teaching. The biggest question we have to face is am I doing this for God or something else… I don’t know what God actually thinks about this as I have been to Churches who believe gay marriage is okay.

Our culture tends to misplace the focus on the prohibitions.
Those Churches who teach gay marriage is ok, what do they believe about the union of a man and woman, which has been know for all of human history as “marriage”?

What do those churches say about this?

 

[Thorolfr]

AlexisTherese:

I am a concerned person who is aware of the negative effects of growing up gay in the church and cannot see myself agreeing with the teachings on homosexuality

What negative effects?

I would think that there are negative effects for gay people who grow up in most Christian churches. If someone is Catholic, they will learn that there is an important part of themselves, that is, “a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil”. Some people in this thread have already compared SSA to being greedy or even being a drug addict. It’s kind of hard for someone to feel good about themselves when they hear those kinds of words about evil and greed being applied to some of their deepest desires for love and companionship. And then there is the stuff from Leviticus which teaches them that they desire to do something that once would have caused them to be put to death. All of those things seem like negative effects to me.

 

[theCardinalbird]

I would think that there are negative effects for gay people who grow up in most Christian churches

True. But when Alexis said the Church I was assuming it was the Catholic Church specifically

If someone is Catholic, they will learn that there is an important part of themselves, that is, “a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil”.

I can understand that. But I also understand that humanity isn’t perfect and that it would make sense to have desires of the flesh

Some people in this thread have already compared SSA to being greedy or even being a drug addict.

I don’t know what the comparison could be, or how that even works

. And then there is the stuff from Leviticus which teaches them that they desire to do something that once would have caused them to be put to death. All of those things seem like negative effects to me.

Ok but that’s Leviticus which is an OT book. I’m asking about the negative effects of Catholicism, not Judaism.

 

[Thorolfr]

Ok but that’s Leviticus which is an OT book. I’m asking about the negative effects of Catholicism, not Judaism.

Just the terminology often used in documents is a negative effect for most gay people. Persona Humana, for example, says that among the ways that someone might come to have SSA is because of a “pathological constitution.” As someone who’s gay, I don’t like to think of myself as having a “pathological constitution.”

 

[theCardinalbird]

Just the terminology often used in documents is a negative effect for most gay people. Persona Humana , for example, says that among the ways that someone might come to have SSA is because of a “pathological constitution.” As someone who’s gay, I don’t like to think of myself as having a “pathological constitution.”

And as someone who is attracted to the same sex such as myself, I would think and understand that a document issued in 1975 such as the one you quoted, would not be a pastoral letter for those with this attraction. That document, Persona Humana, has little effect on me, considering I understand what the CDF is trying to say and I am mindful of the time period it was written in.

I’ve read documents from the Church that show compassion to people with SSA as well.

Though now I am curious, what terminology should the Church use for SSA, in your eyes?