honor of women in islam

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Did you check out the whole page I quoted from? It does sound ambiguous, I know but I’ve seen it posted here and elsewhere. We’ll have to check this out further.

Vickie
the site refers to a Bukhari passage which has nothing to do with rape but with slander. The verse was allegedly revealed because of someone slandering Aisha, not raping her. The site is not Islamic i believe that’s why an Islamic site must say the same in order for us to assess the validity of such an argument.
 
Dear Sister,

This is a personal question. You don’t have to answer me if you mind. What happened to your husband’s first wife, and what will you do if your husband decided to take the third and fourth wife. What if he divorced you and take another as the fifth which will move forward to become the fourth when you are legally divorced?
He is still happily married to his first wife. And if he divorces me, it will be the same as if any husband divorces his wife, whether she is the only wife or not.
 
And the third and fourth?
Um ok yeah. I like to see if you do remain the only wife when you do get to saudi.
So what will your reaction be if and when he does choose to take another women as his wife?
I wouldn’t be the only wife–like I said, I’d be second. And he promised he didn’t want more. But if he does, then I’d deal with it appropriate to the situation.
 
And he promised he didn’t want more.
Im sure that was true at the time he said that. But people change. 🙂

my request above:

Islam is supposed to be a complete system. So what are the rules (according to koran or hadiths) if the accused is a chaste man?
 
You must either be kidding or living on Mars! Muslim men are enabled by the Koran not to let their wives work because the responsibility of providing for the wife is imposed on Muslim men, not women. Therefore, a Muslim guy has the right to prevent his wife from working by simply saying that she is not required to work.
The Qur’an doesn’t say men can prevent their wives from working. So the man doesn’t have that right. So the woman can work if she chooses. Whether or not she is required to has no impact on the situation.
That was my mistake! I somehow forget that you are a Muslim woman, who looks at things from the Islamic perspective only. Even though you claim the opposite without evidence, we have the verse in the Koran that asks men to threaten and punish their wives in exactly the same way as parents are supposed to correct their rebellious children. I see that you do not regard beating as a means of punishment. What do you consider it then? Blessing maybe? :rolleyes:
The Qur’an doesn’t say to threaten, nor does it say to punish. Wives are not treated the way children are–you’ve simply misunderstood the ayah again. No big surprise.
Right! This is why a Muslim woman is not allowed to take the equal portion of inheritance as a Muslim man. Mohammad impeded women’s financial independence by helping men get more than women. More to the point, you confess that Mohammad did not want to see wealthy women (like Khadijah) dominate their husbands (like Mohammad) when you say Muslim women were not required to spend. In Islam, it is men that give money to women for marriage, which aims to help men dominate their women through financial means.
The woman gets to set the amount. And it’s a gift. Doesn’t seem like domination to me, just the opposite.
Still, this explanation makes no sense because women were not called to make financial transactions, but only to witness them! Accordingly, the verse does not stipulate that only men who know something or a lot about financial contracts be summoned as witnesses, putting forward no criteria for the choice of male witnesses. Not all men are supposed to know about such contracts.
Of course women can make financial transactions–there is nothing preventing them. The purpose of a witness to a contract is so that one person doesn’t change the terms. For example, if I take a loan from you for $100, and later you said it was for $200. I say it was $100. Who is telling the truth? That’s what the witnesses are for. It doesn’t mean a woman can’t engage in transactions.
This is not stated in the Koran. However, your presumption does not suffice to defend the Koran because it leads us to the conclusion that the testimony of ONE WOMAN will be authorized ONLY when the MAN and the OTHER WOMAN pass away.The authorization of the remaining female witness is only out of necessity. As I previously stated, the Koran verse also calls TWO women as witnesses ONLY when ONE of the male witnesses of the required TWO is missing.
I’ve given you the opinions of scholars of Islam, not making anything up. If one man and one woman only are available and both their testimony will be taken. And it should be the same, since they witnessed the same thing.
Now you are back to irrelevance! I am here to discuss with you the Koran verse in Surah 2 that considers TWO women as substitute for ONE missing man. (More, you follow a false analogy when you imply that a financial transaction is inherently a male issue as birth is a female issue).It wasn’t a false analogy at all.
Who was that most authoritative female narrator of hadith? Why were those women (some women) considered more authoritative than men (some men)?

'Aisha. She was considered more authoritative because she lived in the household of the Prophet. And no woman is accused of fabricating hadith–did I mention that yet? If a woman narrates hadith, it is the same as if a man narrates it.
 
He is still **happily **

married to his first wife. why does he want more?
i remember you once told me you wouldn’t want your husband to sleep with other woman, what makes you willing to accept a situation in which you cannot be with him because he’s enjoying someone else?

sorry these are personal, you can not answer, but i was wondering how you think of yourself and of such a situation.
 
Im sure that was true at the time he said that. But people change. 🙂
Sure, people change. Which is why I said that I would deal with the situation as would be appropriate. It’s something I have thought about including in the marriage contract. It’s not the end of the world.
my request above:
Islam is supposed to be a complete system. So what are the rules (according to koran or hadiths) if the accused is a chaste man?
I don’t know the answer.
 
Amy, are you living in the west? How do you plan on become the second wife? I heard some muslims in the west does it on their own without the recognition of the law. And when marital breakdowns occur, the unlawful/unrecognized wives are left with nothing.
 
inJESUS;3656262 said:
I think I was referring to him sleeping with another woman outside of marriage–i.e., adultery.
No i was asking you if you prefer a righteous monogamous man or a righteous polygamist and you answered:
I’m not going to tell you I want my husband sleeping with other women, but I do like some time to myself, and the fact that he is righteous to me is far more important than monogamous.
I have come to terms with the marriage, and you questions are too personal to deserve an answer.
yea i know, i didn’t ask out of curiosity though but to assess why Muslim men take advantage of polygamy when they are happy with one woman. Thank u anyway i surely respect your privacy.
 
why Muslim men take advantage of polygamy when they are happy with one woman.
Arent you a man? I’m happy with my wife, and yet sometimes i still fancy having another sex partner. harharhar! 😃

islam merely catered to this basic human male carnal desires. :cool:
 
launch a charge against woman is not rape. If you want to defile a woman, you must provide witnesses…you cannot go around speaking ill about people. I think this must be the correct interpretation of the verse…but anyway, if rape indeed requires 4 witnesses, then an official link which supports this by Quran and hadith and interpretations must be provided in order to assess if this is a teaching or a misinterpretation of some.
I just googled “proving rape in Islam”.

This Islamic site refutes the 4 witnesses.

Here’s another one:


Here’s something else: Horrible story!


PLEASE READ: Mukhtaran Bibi, a young Pakistani woman. She was accused of having a brother - 14 years of age - who was supposedly seen in public with a girl from another tribal family; this rumor was never confirmed and Bibi denied it. She was judged by a Tribal Elders Council of six men to be punished for her brother’s sin. She was sentenced to be gang-raped. The sentence was carried out by five men, her neighbors. Hundreds waited outside as she was gang-raped. She was then sent home naked in the streets. Amazingly and with great courage Mukhtaran Bibi went to the courts seeking justice.:eek:

Vickie
 
The Qur’an doesn’t say men can prevent their wives from working. So the man doesn’t have that right. So the woman can work if she chooses. Whether or not she is required to has no impact on the situation.
This won’t prove anything because the Koran does not say husbands are not allowed to prevent their wives from working either. The Koran only teaches that it is a Muslim man’s responsibility to provide for the wife. If the man works and provides for his wife, he can prevent his wife from working by simply telling her that she is not required to work.
The Qur’an doesn’t say to threaten, nor does it say to punish. Wives are not treated the way children are–you’ve simply misunderstood the ayah again. No big surprise.
Yes, you are the one getting the ayah correct: men rebuke, abandon, and beat women to express their great love for them and to impose on them Allah’s blessing. :rolleyes:
The woman gets to set the amount. And it’s a gift. Doesn’t seem like domination to me, just the opposite.
What women get from their husbands cannot be considered a gift because a fermale child cannot get the same amount of inheritance from her father as her brother. This system of inheritance and man’s obligation to give money to the wife for marriage is not a PLUS for the woman, but the recovery of her forgone rights with regard to inheritance. The Law of inheritance in the Koran reminds me of a boss that decides to cut 100 pounds from the salary of his employee because he spends that amount when he buys the same employee a birthday present.
Of course women can make financial transactions–there is nothing preventing them. The purpose of a witness to a contract is so that one person doesn’t change the terms. For example, if I take a loan from you for $100, and later you said it was for $200. I say it was $100. Who is telling the truth? That’s what the witnesses are for. It doesn’t mean a woman can’t engage in transactions.
This contradicts your statements in your previous post. You had formerly claimed that the reason for Koran to summon two male witnesses for financial contracts was women’s being unfamiliar with that business.
I’ve given you the opinions of scholars of Islam, not making anything up. If one man and one woman only are available and both their testimony will be taken. And it should be the same, since they witnessed the same thing.
Nevertheless, the opinions of those Islamic scholars ignore the verse that equates TWO women with ONE man.
It wasn’t a false analogy at all.
So you believe that financial contracts are a man’s business in the same exact way as conception is a woman’s business?
'Aisha. She was considered more authoritative because she lived in the household of the Prophet. And no woman is accused of fabricating hadith–did I mention that yet? If a woman narrates hadith, it is the same as if a man narrates it.
Aisha’s unique position in Islamic history has nothing to do with our current debate because what made her the most authoritative narrator of Hadith was NOT her gender, but her intimacy with Mohammad! Naturally, no one could know Mohammad better and closer than his wives.
 
Aisha’s unique position in Islamic history has nothing to do with our current debate because what made her the most authoritative narrator of Hadith was NOT her gender, but her intimacy with Mohammad! Naturally, no one could know Mohammad better and closer than his wives.
Duh. My point was that GENDER had no factor.
 
Then what was your point in bringing up this example? :confused:
The fact that GENDER has no factor.

You people are saying women can’t give testimony, they aren’t trustworthy, they are equal to half a man. And it’s bogus.

A woman CAN give testimony, narrate hadith, be a judge, without being diminished in that capacity at all by her gender.
 
from your source:

*“The onus to provide evidence falls on the one who makes a claim, and the one who denies (the same) can absolve himself or herself by making a solemn oath to the contrary.” *

Thats the problem. If a woman makes a claim that a certain chaste man raped her, what evidence is she require to provide according to Islam?

And according to that, the accused man can absolve himself by saying “I swear I didnt do it!”.
 
The fact that GENDER has no factor.

You people are saying women can’t give testimony, they aren’t trustworthy, they are equal to half a man. And it’s bogus.
I have never said that WOMEN cannot give testimony at all! These are not my words! :mad:

It is your very scripture that equates TWO WOMEN with ONE MAN through a verse regulating the number and gender of people required as witnesses for financial contracts! Please stop confusing our ideas with what your Koran teaches.
A woman CAN give testimony, narrate hadith, be a judge, without being diminished in that capacity at all by her gender.
I fail to understand how Aisha’s unique position in Mohammad’s life can make you conclude that ALL WOMEN are considered equal to men in the Koran???
 
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