How and why to pray through Mary?

[Dinant]

I saw a couple of times written ‘show me a verse that sais NOT to pray to Mary’ You can’t build a truth on something being not there in the bible. Not as a sola-scriptora believer, and certainly not as somebody believing in Scripture and ‘tradition’. So why keep on hammering that Jesus should have said that we shouldn’t pray to Mary? Rather give me some prove that the Jews prayed to the dead, and if so or not, why? Why is the praying to Mary missing in the first 3centuries after the Resurrection of our Lord? Why does God not reveal something like this more clearly? It comes so close to praying to a ‘mother and father’ God, as we know the Egytians did. The step from a one God, to a Trinity was Big already. As far as I know, the Jews were very very strict on only praying to God. Why does this whole Mary thing stay out of Gods Livng Word, why is it totally absent in the first centuries, and why is there a total absence of reason? God the Father is our goal, we come there through Jesus our mediator and Saviour. Where is the place for Mary? To come to Jesus? I’m very sorry, but the complete Bible, old testament included, tells me about the Love of Jesus. Can’t pray to Him directly? He showed His love to the end! Through every pain and suffering! He is the doctor for the sick, the healer of the wounded, the listening ear to the unheard. The comforter of the lonely, the embrace for everybody willing to receive Him. Why, Why Why!
I also saw people pointing to 2000years of tradition… Are you trying to say the teaching of the Church was the same all the time? Very interesting. You know, I honestly try to see the good things of Cathlolic past (also of the past of protestants), but often it’s a hard thing to find…
I also saw people saying that the Bible is put together by the Church. Well, than burn it if you want. If it is the word of the church, why talk about it? If it is the Word of God, who cares who (only) officially pointed out what books where to be in the Bible? The offical canon was kinda late… To late to be of any historical meaning…
SORROWS today wrote that she ‘loves Mary with all her heart’ You are in grave danger! You should love Mary, very very much, but only GOD is worthy of Love with all your Heart. Exactly such things make me doubt all the things about Mary the most. Loving her with all your heart, following her all your life, going into her army, giving your life to her, etc. I heard these things from fellow catholic brothers and sisters, and they concern me very much.
I also don’t get all the implications from the wedding at Cana… It’s great Mary asked, it’s great to have her as an example here, for what we all are allowed to do. Go to Jesus, ask Him, and receive. I don’t get what it says more.
Be Blessed
Dinant

I’m just a little boy with a Big Daddy

 

[Eilish_Maura]

+JMJ+

God doesn’t need “softening up”… lol.



But the Lord did chose to have his mother demonstrate how intercession (in particular, his mother) works, and here there is no debate, that is precisely what happened at the Wedding Feast.

So the question to be asked is, Why did GOD chose this way? As Catholics, we believe truly that the Bible is the word of the Holy Spirit. And, we know that the Holy Spirit shows us many examples of intercessory prayer.

Here is a question for you: do you not believe in asking for other people to pray for something with you or for you? Then why should we not pray to those whom we know are in Heaven?

But back to the first question: Why did God chose to show us that the Blessed Virgin Mother made intecession at the Wedding Feast? Ans.: because not only is she the most perfect creation of God, but it is a first step towards humility (in knowing our place in relation to God) to go to someone who IS HOLY to pray on our behalf, rather than be so presumptuous when we approach Him. Yes, we should be confident when praying to our Lord, but confidence is not always ordered to God, and is often disordered. True confidence in Christ is rooted in humility.

So God’s plan for our salvation is trumped by the Wedding at Cana story? Jesus telling us that we CAN approach the Father directly was wrong?

While there is nothing wrong with asking the Communion of Saints for intercession there is also nothing wrong with not asking them for it if one is not drawn to that kind of prayer.

 

[revelations]

I would just like to point out how absolutely useless this whole thread has been.

Why argue about this? Seriously, why bicker about these moot-issues, when there is so much else in the world to worry about?

30,000 people just died in Myanmar, there are wars going on, there are people who go hungry.

 

[JoeyWarren]

So God’s plan for our salvation is trumped by the Wedding at Cana story? Jesus telling us that we CAN approach the Father directly was wrong?

While there is nothing wrong with asking the Communion of Saints for intercession there is also nothing wrong with not asking them for it if one is not drawn to that kind of prayer.

So exactly why are you arguing?

 

[Dinant]

I would just like to point out how absolutely useless this whole thread has been.

Why argue about this? Seriously, why bicker about these moot-issues, when there is so much else in the world to worry about?

30,000 people just died in Myanmar, there are wars going on, there are people who go hungry.

Yes, brother, yes. You are so right about that. We should care about that really much. But, Jesus sais that we should search the Kingdom of heaven first. Also that we should love God above all and our neighbor as ourselves. We should test all things. If praying to Mary (and saints) is so incredibly important as many people make it, and it is true, we should grow into that faith and do it too! If not, it is believing in a lie, and idolatry, so we should repent from it.

Praying is caring about the sick and the poor too, though James kindly points out that praying isn’t enough… I would love to hear how you deal with caring for the needy, and needs in your own life, but I’m afraid that’s not what this post is about…

Be Blessed
Dinant

 

[eagertolearn]

I may be too simple to understand all God’s plan. However, the private revelations of Virgin Mary at Lourdes, Fatima, Madjugory, Guadalupe, Naju, and as far East as Japan, Korea, Philippine, Vietnam, as deep south as Brazil, Venezuela…have brought millions back to Catholic faith and millions people becoming aware of God and love Him. That is the intercessory power! Ask the Ruwanda refugees facing the genocide! Ask the Vietnamese refugees when facing death on their boat at sea!

I will digress a bit, now. I have traveled quite a bit, in many continents. I have seen the Catholic Mass is very much the same everywhere. I feel at home walking into those Masses, even though I may not understand the languages most of the time. The liturgy is very much the same. One should feel peaceful and familiar whether it was a church, cornered in the street of Hong Kong, in Bulgaria (Eastern Orthodox), mountainous church in North Vietnam, in Costa Rica, Brazil or Las Vegas. That is the unity in Catholic faith that I have not seen from any other religion. Those were enough for me to pause and think.

Yes, we need a deep personal relationship with our God. No doubt! However, the History, Authority, Unity, Identity, Politics, Disciplinary structures…do mean a lot at this time. Those with hard head and troubled heart, objecting by means of sitting in front of the computer, is like the frog on the bottom of a deep well! How long will those Ecclesiastical communities last in this time of secular turmoil? Until all the funds running out?

Be open, pray and knock!

ETL (I swam the Tiber before)

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Is this thread finished?

It is off track at the moment - should it be put back on track or should it be locked?

 

[Always_For_Him]

You have stated that the Catholic faith doesn’t come from the Bible, well that explains why millions of Catholic are trying to pray to God through Mary.

The Catholic faith IS what is written in the bible. Jesus gave the authority to his disciples who continued on teaching what Jesus instructed them to. It was the apostolic succession (Catholic Church) that determined what was inspired teachings, and through the Holy Spirit, put them in writing for ALL of us - All Christians. Jesus taught ONE truth. One Bible was written. That is STILL the Bible that the Catholics use today!!! We didn’t change ours. That happened in the 1500’s when the pillars of the reformation decided to throw out seven books of the Bible because they didn’t like them and introduce their own ideology - Sola Scriptura. So, the Catholic faith is the Bible. Do you even know where the Bible came from? What Bible did Martin Luther use to change to his liking? He used the Catholic Bible! It is the Protestant’s that have and use an altered Bible from the original Bible. The Catholics have NEVER changed anything. We follow the same teachings as Jesus taught Peter and the disciples then to this very day!!! It is just that your denomination can NEVER admit any of this becasue then they would have to admit that the Catholics had it right to begin with.

 

[Always_For_Him]

That would be just some pious thought the person you heard it from liked.

I am glad to see that you understand the particular line of thinking. That is EXACTLY what every single Protestant has done. That is why you have 35,000 different denominations that EACH think they are interpreting the Bible correctly! You have to know that the Bible was written from what was Oral/Sacred Tradition. It was oral before it became writing. Who was teaching the Tradition and who through the Holy Spirit put it into writing for us - The Catholic Church! Who would better know what Jesus meant, the apostles and their successors or men in the 1500’s? When I was younger and I went to some different Protestant churchs. I loved the charismatic delivery, the feeling of unity. I BUT, the message that was taught NEVER taught where the Bible that you believe in came from. It never taught that Martin Luther and the other reformers didn’t like parts of the Catholic Bible and threw them out and rewrote it to teach their interpretation of the Bible. The parts that were changed are “thoughts that you heard from someone and liked.” The parts that were changed weren’t Jesus’s teachings. They were teachings from men in the 1500’s. What was the problem with the previous 1500 years understanding of the teachings? Why did men have to make changes in the 1500’s? Do you ever question why so much descention or so many different denominations that have come to believe that their’s and only their interpretations of the Bible are correct?

 

[DebChris]

CCC688 The Church, a commuinion living in the faith of the apostles which she transmits, is the place where we know the Holy Spirit:
–in the Scriptures he inspired;
–in the Tradition, to which the Church Fathers are always timely witnesses
–in the Church’s Magisterium, which he assists…
–in the witness of saints through whom he manifests his holiness and continues the work of salvation.

CCC 956The intercession of the saints "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness…They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus…So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped.

CCC957communion with the saints “It is not merely by the title of example that we cherish the memory of those in heaven; we seek, rather, that by this devotion to the exercise of fraternal charity the union of the whole Church in the Spirit may be strengthened. Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself.”

 

[Eilish_Maura]

I am glad to see that you understand the particular line of thinking. That is EXACTLY what every single Protestant has done. That is why you have 35,000 different denominations that EACH think they are interpreting the Bible correctly! You have to know that the Bible was written from what was Oral/Sacred Tradition. It was oral before it became writing. Who was teaching the Tradition and who through the Holy Spirit put it into writing for us - The Catholic Church! Who would better know what Jesus meant, the apostles and their successors or men in the 1500’s? When I was younger and I went to some different Protestant churchs. I loved the charismatic delivery, the feeling of unity. I BUT, the message that was taught NEVER taught where the Bible that you believe in came from. It never taught that Martin Luther and the other reformers didn’t like parts of the Catholic Bible and threw them out and rewrote it to teach their interpretation of the Bible. The parts that were changed are “thoughts that you heard from someone and liked.” The parts that were changed weren’t Jesus’s teachings. They were teachings from men in the 1500’s. What was the problem with the previous 1500 years understanding of the teachings? Why did men have to make changes in the 1500’s? Do you ever question why so much descention or so many different denominations that have come to believe that their’s and only their interpretations of the Bible are correct?

WHY are you addressing this to me? It seems to be an effort to derail the thread which is unfair to the OP.

 

[DebChris]

From the United States Catholic Catechism for Adults:
In the Latin Church, the Rosary, a venerable and powerful form of prayer, developed out of popular piety. Praying the Rosary involves the recitation of vocal prayers, including the Our Father, the Hail Mary, and the Glory Be, while meditating on mysteries in the life of Jesus. In the Eastern Churches, litanies and hymns to the Mother of God are more commonly prayed.
We do not pray to Mary in the same way we pray to God. In praying to Mary, we invoke her intercession on behalf of our needs, whereas when we pray to God we ask him directly for gifts and favors. (p 471-472).

 

[Always_For_Him]

I thought it was you that wrote it. If I am mistaken, then I am sorry. More importantly, was the reason I responded with more than the OP really asked for is because Protesants or anyone that has absorbed some of the Prostestant ideology, can’t begin to understand and believe any answer that is given to any question if they don’t believe that the people who wrote the Bible were putting into writing Jesus’ teachings - The Catholic Church. The people who put all teachings in a book for ALL to use, represented Christ’s teachings and the Church that Christ founded. He founded ONE Church. He taught One truth. That truth is what was recorded in ONE Bible. That Bible was used for 1500 years by all Christians. Man came along and changed words/scripture, omitted scripture to show his interpretation of it. That is where all Protestantism comes from - from a changed Bible, not the complete/original Bible. I am somewhat off topic because to try to explain anything to a Protestant so he/she would even begin to believe it starts with said Protestant understanding that apostolic authority/succession wrote the Bible they so believe in. The Catholic Church has NEVER used any other Bible than the original one that Protestants borrowed to use and change.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

From the United States Catholic Catechism for Adults:
In the Latin Church, the Rosary, a venerable and powerful form of prayer, developed out of popular piety. Praying the Rosary involves the recitation of vocal prayers, including the Our Father, the Hail Mary, and the Glory Be, while meditating on mysteries in the life of Jesus. In the Eastern Churches, litanies and hymns to the Mother of God are more commonly prayed.
We do not pray to Mary in the same way we pray to God. In praying to Mary, we invoke her intercession on behalf of our needs, whereas when we pray to God we ask him directly for gifts and favors. (p 471-472).

Why are we going more off topic with each post?

 

[Eilish_Maura]

I thought it was you that wrote it. If I am mistaken, then I am sorry. More importantly, was the reason I responded with more than the OP really asked for is because Protesants or anyone that has absorbed some of the Prostestant ideology, can’t begin to understand and believe any answer that is given to any question if they don’t believe that the people who wrote the Bible were putting into writing Jesus’ teachings - The Catholic Church. The people who put all teachings in a book for ALL to use, represented Christ’s teachings and the Church that Christ founded. He founded ONE Church. He taught One truth. That truth is what was recorded in ONE Bible. That Bible was used for 1500 years by all Christians. Man came along and changed words/scripture, omitted scripture to show his interpretation of it. That is where all Protestantism comes from - from a changed Bible, not the complete/original Bible. I am somewhat off topic because to try to explain anything to a Protestant so he/she would even begin to believe it starts with said Protestant understanding that apostolic authority/succession wrote the Bible they so believe in. The Catholic Church has NEVER used any other Bible than the original one that Protestants borrowed to use and change.

Why are we going more off topic with each post?

 

[Always_For_Him]

I am sorry however that I have strayed from the original post. I just think though, that more needs to be said as to be understood for any non Catholic to even begin to believe anything other than what they have been taught by their own church.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

I am sorry however that I have strayed from the original post. I just think though, that more needs to be said as to be understood for any non Catholic to even begin to believe anything other than what they have been taught by their own church.

I believe you misunderstood the OP - here is a copy of the first post:

I am a Catholic. But in my childhood I was bombarded with Protestant beliefs and ideologies.

I’m still a Catholic though. But, to this day I find it difficult or sometimes even silly to pray through Mary or the saints.

I pray to Jesus and the Father. And I’m heard. So why should I pray through Mary or the saints? How can I be sure that St.“so and so” is hearing me? And what’s the advantage of doing that when I know Christ hears me and so does the Father? Or is it that they cannot always hear me?

When did this practice of praying through Mary and the saints begin?

 

[Always_For_Him]

How can we teach any non Catholic reading this particular thread(or any thread on the Catholic Forum), if they refuse to understand that we Catholics believe and practice the very same things that was originally oral tradition and sacred tradition as passed from Jesus through his disciples then recorded for all. It is from that very Bible that we are showing you scripture that answers the original poster’s questions. We have showed, explained, proven from scripture, but you won’t accept any of it as truth. Suffice to say, it was truth and believed by Christians for 1500 years before man came in and changed things which is why you believe something different.

 

[DebChris]

Why are we going more off topic with each post?

My response was to a post that specifically asked what the Cathecism taught regarding praying through the saints and Mary.
It is understood that many have difficulty using the saints for intercession. While I believe in the communion of saints and pray the rosary, I seldom ask the intercession of other saints. It is not a requirement for salvation. My prayers are joined with the communion of saints each and every time I attend Mass.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

How can we teach any non Catholic reading this particular thread(or any thread on the Catholic Forum), if they refuse to understand that we Catholics believe and practice the very same things that was originally oral tradition and sacred tradition as passed from Jesus through his disciples then recorded for all. It is from that very Bible that we are showing you scripture that answers the original poster’s questions. We have showed, explained, proven from scripture, but you won’t accept any of it as truth. Suffice to say, it was truth and believed by Christians for 1500 years before man came in and changed things which is why you believe something different.

Start a new thread with that as the topic.
:coffeeread: :yup: :yup: