How and why to pray through Mary?

[Always_For_Him]

Come on Eilish Maura, is bagging on the fact that I (and others) have gotten off topic the only thing you can do to feel like you are right and Catholics are wrong? You have shown no proof to substantiate your claim while many Catholic posters have proven that our beliefs in praying to/through Mary and the saints is supported by scripture. It was supported before the written form of scripture even existed. That is why it is important for any non Catholic to believe in Sacred Tradition and it is THAT tradition that is written in the Bible. If you don’t/can’t believe in that, you won’t be able to believe anything else we have to say. The OP also said she had been exposed to Protestant teachings - although, not her main question, I was responding to that as well.

 

[Always_For_Him]

Start a new thread with that as the topic.
:coffeeread: :yup: :yup:

By the way, this post was on topic. You just didn’t like what you read.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Come on Eilish Maura, is bagging on the fact that I (and others) have gotten off topic the only thing you can do to feel like you are right and Catholics are wrong? You have shown no proof to substantiate your claim while many Catholic posters have proven that our beliefs in praying to/through Mary and the saints is supported by scripture. It was supported before the written form of scripture even existed. That is why it is important for any non Catholic to believe in Sacred Tradition and it is THAT tradition that is written in the Bible. If you don’t/can’t believe in that, you won’t be able to believe anything else we have to say. The OP also said she had been exposed to Protestant teachings - although, not her main question, I was responding to that as well.

You could have quoted what you were responding to.

You should not assume others posting are not Catholic, that is just bad form.

And if you feel more should be said feel free to start a new thread with the item(s) in the topic.

 

[Always_For_Him]

You could have quoted what you were responding to.
I am sorry about that, I thought I had.

You should not assume others posting are not Catholic, that is just bad form.

Why am I wrong to assume others posting are not Catholic? I know that some of them aren’t Catholic. Where I am wrong is assuming whether or not you are Catholic. And for that, I am sorry.

And if you feel more should be said feel free to start a new thread with the item(s) in the topic.
You are right about the need to start a new thread. That doesn’t change the fact that posters showed where the Catholic belief on intercessory prayer/praying to/through Mary comes from. When non Catholics respond with their beliefs that their church has taught them something different as if that is the truth, it puts an undue burden on us to prove otherwise. Many posters proved what the original poster wanted to know, and it was systematically ignored, not believed, seemingly not even considered that there could be truth to ANY of it. Thus, the over posting of information.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

And if you feel more should be said feel free to start a new thread with the item(s) in the topic.

You are right about the need to start a new thread. That doesn’t change the fact that posters showed where the Catholic belief on intercessory prayer/praying to/through Mary comes from. When non Catholics respond with their beliefs that their church has taught them something different as if that is the truth, it puts an undue burden on us to prove otherwise. Many posters proved what the original poster wanted to know, and it was systematically ignored, not believed, seemingly not even considered that there could be truth to ANY of it. Thus, the over posting of information.

Another poster has very successfully derailed the thread however this is a post from the OP:

I started this thread not with the intention of starting a debate but with the honest intention of getting an answer. And I am satisfied with the answers that I have got and also with the scriptural backing for the practice (thanks to Rolltude). I read the scriptural evidence and I found it satisfactory, but it seems our prejudiced Protestant brother will not accept it. Anyway, it’s up to him really, I’ve got my answer.

 

[clmowry]

Because God has willed that we should show love not just for Him, but for one another.

What better way to do that than to pray with and for one another?

Chuck

All the help you can get doesn’t mean much if it is unnecessary. Perhaps I didn’t phrase it clearly enough. Is a single child’s prayer directly to God given less consideration by God than if the child had prayed with others and included the saints’ intercession? And if God hears all prayers, why not simply rely upon him, especially since it is only he who answers them?

 

[paramedicgirl]

All the help you can get doesn’t mean much if it is unnecessary. Perhaps I didn’t phrase it clearly enough. Is a single child’s prayer directly to God given less consideration by God than if the child had prayed with others and included the saints’ intercession? And if God hears all prayers, why not simply rely upon him, especially since it is only he who answers them?

God loves to hear the prayers of children, probably because of their innocence. But God also allows the saints, particularly Mary, to respond to prayers. It is through His grace that He bestows this privilege on His elect, and is what we call the Communion of saints.

 

[CradleCath]

WHY are you addressing this to me? It seems to be an effort to derail the thread which is unfair to the OP.

Because it seems to me & others here, that you are one of the Protestants, who FIRST altered Scripture & THEN use your **revised **“Word of God” to try to argue against the Catholic Church whose first Pope, Peter, was one of the apostles. You make no sense.

 

[CradleCath]

=Eilish Maura;3701689]You could have quoted what you were responding to.

You should not assume others posting are not Catholic, that is just bad form.

Who is “assuming”?

And if you feel more should be said feel free to start a new thread with the item(s) in the topic.

The fact that you really like to think that you have control over a thread has been evident through many of “your” argumentive topics. When you realize that you don’t, it’s time to close it, according to you.
BTW. It takes a big person to just say “sorry, I was wrong”. Try it sometime.

 

[eagertolearn]

Who is “assuming”?
The fact that you really like to think that you have control over a thread has been evident through many of “your” argumentive topics. When you realize that you don’t, it’s time to close it, according to you.
BTW. It takes a big person to just say “sorry, I was wrong”. Try it sometime.

This note of mine will be off topic too

I have seen frustration with these discussions sometimes! The reason is: The difficulty is not logic nor intellectual one but moral.

The good things are: These discussions have galvanized our Catholic faith and He will be with us till the end of time.

We spread the news. He will do the conversion at appropriate time. Be friendly and in control at all times. Be a true witness for Him.



ETL

 

[Dinant]

jn13:35…

I posted something some pages ago, and saw nobody responding to it. If I offended somebody, I’m sorry, it’s not my meaning to be unsensitive. Still though, I would really like to hear your opinions about it. summarized:

• if God wanted us to have communication with saints in heaven, is there evidence in the Jewish culture/ Bible and early christianity.
• if Mary is so important, is there evidence for the major claims, again in old testament, new testament, Jewish culture and early christianity
• Is the reason of praying to saints/Mary completely absent?
  • I saw people assuming that God has to be softened and
  • people in heaven are closer to God and therefore He listens
    to
    them better/earlier/whatsoever.

Ok, when God has to be ‘softenened’, He is normally harder… God is perfect…(Love) so are you saying actually that God needs our prayers to give us the right things? Are we changed by our prayers, or is God changed?
He listens to people in heaven better/more quickly/… Where is the backup for that claim? Can you give me** reason **plus maybe scriptures/catechism/church fathers?

You guys would really be a blessing for me to help me answer this. I am honestly interested in the Truth

Be Blessed
Dinant

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Who is “assuming”?

Reread the post - it is clear in it.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Because it seems to me & others here, that you are one of the Protestants, who FIRST altered Scripture & THEN use your **revised **“Word of God” to try to argue against the Catholic Church whose first Pope, Peter, was one of the apostles. You make no sense.

Maye when you do that kind of thing it is because of incorrect assumptions and assigning a role to me - the author of the post this was in reference actually was looking to respond to someone else (perhaps the person I responded to? I forget now) and picked up my quote when trying to respond making it ‘to’ me.

 

[LilyM]

jn13:35…

I posted something some pages ago, and saw nobody responding to it. If I offended somebody, I’m sorry, it’s not my meaning to be unsensitive. Still though, I would really like to hear your opinions about it. summarized:

• if God wanted us to have communication with saints in heaven, is there evidence in the Jewish culture/ Bible and early christianity.
• if Mary is so important, is there evidence for the major claims, again in old testament, new testament, Jewish culture and early christianity
• Is the reason of praying to saints/Mary completely absent?
  • I saw people assuming that God has to be softened and
  • people in heaven are closer to God and therefore He listens
    to
    them better/earlier/whatsoever.

Ok, when God has to be ‘softenened’, He is normally harder… God is perfect…(Love) so are you saying actually that God needs our prayers to give us the right things? Are we changed by our prayers, or is God changed?
He listens to people in heaven better/more quickly/… Where is the backup for that claim? Can you give me** reason **plus maybe scriptures/catechism/church fathers?

You guys would really be a blessing for me to help me answer this. I am honestly interested in the Truth

Be Blessed
Dinant

I can help you with that second question - it’s stated outright in a few places in scripture that God hears the prayer OF THE RIGHTEOUS:

“The Lord hears the prayer of the righteous” (Proverbs 15:29)
“The prayer of a righteous man avails much” (James 5:16)

Stands to reason that we can be certain those in heaven are indeed righteous - can I claim to know the same without a doubt about either myself or anybody else on earth - with the best will in the world?

 

[Dinant]

I can help you with that second question - it’s stated outright in a few places in scripture that God hears the prayer OF THE RIGHTEOUS:

“The Lord hears the prayer of the righteous” (Proverbs 15:29)
“The prayer of a righteous man avails much” (James 5:16)

Stands to reason that we can be certain those in heaven are indeed righteous - can I claim to know the same without a doubt about either myself or anybody else on earth - with the best will in the world?

Yeah, that indeed makes sence. Though, I still have a question about when is a person ‘righteous’. Isn’t every believer righteous, Rom4:3,9b? James mentiones Elijah as a righteous man. After that he sais that he was a man, just like us…

Blessings
Dinant

I’m just a little boy with a Big Daddy

 

[LilyM]

Yeah, that indeed makes sence. Though, I still have a question about when is a person ‘righteous’. Isn’t every believer righteous, Rom4:3,9b? James mentiones Elijah as a righteous man. After that he sais that he was a man, just like us…

Blessings
Dinant

I’m just a little boy with a Big Daddy

Yeah - that’s because Elijah was assumed into heaven by God! After that there can be no doubt of HIS righteousness.

Romans 4 speaks only of Abraham’s righteousness as a certainty, no other individual is named as certainly being righteous.

Point is these men were being written about (and under the special inspiration of the Holy Spirit, I might add) decades if not centuries after their departure from the world, and under those circumstances a definite pronouncement could be made on their righteousness.

We who are still alive can sin at any time, and furthermore we can’t read the soul of another so we on our own don’t know whether they are sinless (righteous) or not. Nor can we even be 100% certain of our OWN righteousness - ‘let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall’ (1 Cor 10:12)

Of course every believer isn’t righteous anyway - even devils believe in God - and tremble (James 2:19). Righteousness requires a little bit more than just intellectual or even emotional belief.

 

[peary]

jn13:35…

I posted something some pages ago, and saw nobody responding to it. If I offended somebody, I’m sorry, it’s not my meaning to be unsensitive. Still though, I would really like to hear your opinions about it. summarized:

• if God wanted us to have communication with saints in heaven, is there evidence in the Jewish culture/ Bible and early christianity.

Good Lord! Read the Old Testament. God is always sending his messengers and angels to earth who converse and interact with humankind (the Chosen People). If this isn’t ‘communication’ with the saints in heaven, and evidence in Jewish culture, the bible and early Christianity (were not angels present at the Lord’s tomb? Did they not converse with the apostles and Mary Magdalen?) then tell me what is.

• if Mary is so important, is there evidence for the major claims, again in old testament, new testament, Jewish culture and early christianity

Read how the Davidic Kingdom was set up in the Old Testament. It was the queen mother who was enthroned, not the king’s wife. And who interceded for the common people to the king himself? His mother. As Christ is the eternal Davidic ruler, His mother is the queen in that tradition. And remember, the early Christians were Jewish, so, the emphasis on the Kingdom of David was something very real to them.

• Is the reason of praying to saints/Mary completely absent?
  • I saw people assuming that God has to be softened and
  • people in heaven are closer to God and therefore He listens
    to
    them better/earlier/whatsoever.

Ok, when God has to be ‘softenened’, He is normally harder… God is perfect…(Love) so are you saying actually that God needs our prayers to give us the right things? Are we changed by our prayers, or is God changed?

Read the Bible! Read how Nineveh was saved by its people donning sackcloth and ashes and repenting. Did this not ‘soften up’ the heart of God Himself? I firmly believe that in actuality, God does not need our prayers to give us the right things, but He DOES listen to us, and He DOES change His mind!

He listens to people in heaven better/more quickly/… Where is the backup for that claim? Can you give me** reason **plus maybe scriptures/catechism/church fathers?

I don’t know if one can say that God listens to people in Heaven more quickly and clearly than He hears us here on earth. We are all part of the Church, on Heaven, during purification after death, as well as on earth. I think as part of the Body of Christ (the Church) all are heard equally.

 

[eagertolearn]

jn13:35…

I posted something some pages ago, and saw nobody responding to it. If I offended somebody, I’m sorry, it’s not my meaning to be unsensitive. Still though, I would really like to hear your opinions about it. summarized:

• if God wanted us to have communication with saints in heaven, is there evidence in the Jewish culture/ Bible and early christianity.
• if Mary is so important, is there evidence for the major claims, again in old testament, new testament, Jewish culture and early christianity
• Is the reason of praying to saints/Mary completely absent?
  • I saw people assuming that God has to be softened and
  • people in heaven are closer to God and therefore He listens
    to
    them better/earlier/whatsoever.

Ok, when God has to be ‘softenened’, He is normally harder… God is perfect…(Love) so are you saying actually that God needs our prayers to give us the right things? Are we changed by our prayers, or is God changed?
He listens to people in heaven better/more quickly/… Where is the backup for that claim? Can you give me** reason **plus maybe scriptures/catechism/church fathers?

You guys would really be a blessing for me to help me answer this. I am honestly interested in the Truth

Be Blessed
Dinant

I posted something some pages ago, and saw nobody responding to it

We just went through with lots of info on many previous posts. People is getting tired to regurgitate materials all over again.

• if God wanted us to have communication with saints in heaven, is there evidence in the Jewish culture/ Bible and early christianity.

Please follow this link, good info

catholic.com/library/praying_to_the_saints.asp

• if Mary is so important, is there evidence for the major claims, again in old testament, new testament, Jewish culture and early christianity

No need to. Honor thy Mother! We honor highly “The Mother of God”.

• Is the reason of praying to saints/Mary completely absent?
  • I saw people assuming that God has to be softened and
  • people in heaven are closer to God and therefore He listens
    to
    them better/earlier/whatsoever.

Posters were using the “soften things up” as an anology of the situation. Please do not put all the weigh on that anology alone. It is human tendency and inclination to not ask the source of authority, which you fear and worship, directly.

At the wedding at Cana, when they ran out of wine who they came to ask first, not Jesus but Mary. You can see that type of tendency and human behaviour in many different cultures too, Buddhism for example.

I have to go search for some info from the last few requests of yours. Do not have too much time right now!

Later

ETL

 

[GraceDK]

I am a Catholic. But in my childhood I was bombarded with Protestant beliefs and ideologies.

I’m still a Catholic though. But, to this day I find it difficult or sometimes even silly to pray through Mary or the saints.

I pray to Jesus and the Father. And I’m heard. So why should I pray through Mary or the saints? How can I be sure that St.“so and so” is hearing me? And what’s the advantage of doing that when I know Christ hears me and so does the Father? Or is it that they cannot always hear me?

When did this practice of praying through Mary and the saints begin?

Dear friend.

There is no rule that says you have to pray to the saints or to Mary in order to be a good Catholic. As far as we can see in the New Testament there is no record of the first Church praying to saints or to Mary… and we know that Paul was one heck of a Christian.
Not praying to the saints does not mean we deny them or the good things they did while they lived here on earth or denying that they still pray for us… But if you wish to focus on deepening your relationship with Christ Jesus, His Father, and the Holy Spirit then do so… No one should or could jugde you for that or say that this is insufficient…Indeed all joy and glory and salvation and love and beauty and all meaning are found in Him and Him alone.
Often I wonder my self how people are so fast to be well aquainted with a number of saints and calling them friends but it seems they are not familiar with all three persons of the Trinity on a personal level… Often people have a bunch of stories about what Mary did for them… but not a single one about the Holy Spirit in particular. As for me myself I am still only praying to Jesus and then some to the Father… I have tried to talk to the Holy Spirit a number of times… but I yearn to be deep in all three persons… Not only be deep in them but also understand and get to know them in the roles that they want to have in relation to me… Like… Jesus… I see Him now as my big brother and holy companion… but I yearn to get back to the point where I realise and grow in the realisation that He is my Spouse… How could I ever get done with that.
I wish to hear no other voice from Heaven than His… and therefore a prayer to the saints will be a monologue for me… whereas commuinion with the Lord can and does become a dialogue.

As far as Heaven is from the earth so far is any creature from God and His Blazing Holy Divinity… I see that Light and thats the place I want to be headed… I dont wanna live in anyones heart but His.

Grace

 

[emeraldisle]

God loves to hear the prayers of children, probably because of their innocence.

God the Father loves to hear the prayers of His children because He is their Father and He wants all of His children to pray directly to Him.

But God also allows the saints, particularly Mary, to respond to prayers.

God hears and responds to all His children’s prayers. God can hear the millions of prayers said to Him daily because He is God. Mary is not God and can’t hear the millions of people trying to pray to God through her.

Why can’t people accept the fact that God can very easily hear and answer all the prayers His children pray to Him?

Why can’t people accept the fact that Mary can’t hear the millions of people trying to pray to God through her?

Why can’t people accept the fact that God hasn’t told His children in His written word to pray to Him through Mary?

.