How and why to pray through Mary?

[justasking4]

Tantum ergo;3707251]

Mary is not God and can’t hear the millions of people trying to pray to God through her.
Sorry, but where is it documented in Scripture that ONLY God can ‘hear’ in heaven?

It is well established in Scripture that all prayer is to be directed only to God. I Timothy 2:5 tells us that there is only mediator between God and man---- For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
A mediator is A mediator is one who mediates between two parties. As far as I can tell this is spoken of only of Christ and no else.

If you read Revelation you see that not only are those who died in Christ alive, they are also cognizant of those who ‘live’ on earth. And where is it written that God does not hear the prayers of those who pray ‘through’ another? Quite the reverse.

What do you mean by “those who pray ‘through’ another”? Do you mean the praying we do for each other in this world?

Why can’t people accept the fact that God can very easily hear and answer all the prayers His children pray to Him?
We can and do.

Why can’t people accept the fact that Mary can’t hear the millions of people trying to pray to God through her? That is not a ‘fact’–it is your opinion and is not scripturally supported.

Where is just one prayer to Mary recorded in the Scriptures?

Why can’t people accept the fact that God hasn’t told His children in His written word to pray to Him through Mary? If you mean He hasn’t said, in 'King James English", “thou shalt pray to me through Mary”–you’re right. He also hasn’t said that ‘thou shalt’ pray to Him through the use of computer graphics, CDs, DVDs, or even the ‘printed’ word. . .but you don’t seem to have trouble using any of those. Nor has He said one CANNOT pray to Him through Mary or anybody else. He HAS, however, said repeatedly ‘where 2 or 3 gather in my name, there am I in their midst. Well tell me then, if those ‘2’ include me and the Blessed Virgin, then Jesus is RIGHT THERE IN OUR MIDST–unless you want to make Him a liar’–and if He is in our midst while we are offering the prayers of righteous men as St. James so aptly puts it, then what is your problem?

You are assuming that Mary is in your midst. Again the Scriptures never make such a claim about her or anyone else. Only when 2-3 are gathered in His name is He present and not Mary or some other spirit being. We see this in the passage you allude to—
19 Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.
20 For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”

Matthew 18

Where, oh WHERE is it written in Scripture, and believed and taught cohesively WITHOUT CONTRADICTION that ‘a dead person in Christ neither hears, sees, nor understands anything in heaven/’

How about Ecclesiastes 9:10-- Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.
Even the passages that are used in Revelations support the idea that someone is praying directly to these saints from earth.

What if the person you are praying to is in purgatory. Can they hear your prayers and do something about them?

In fact, such was NEVER taught by Christians until 1600 years had gone by and people started cherry picking passages specifically to argue AGAINST CHRISTIAN TEACHING (meaning, PROTESTING Catholic teaching) which had taught from apostolic times (despite your contention) that those who had died were ‘aware’

.
This was the point of the reformation. The church for centuries had adopted practices that were never taught in the Scriptures and that’s why it was in desperate need of reform.

Ever check out the catecombs?

The catacombs only give us an idea what particular individuals may have believed and not what the entire church believed.

Read St. Paul who plainly asks for prayers for those who have died? Why, if the dead ‘can’t hear’ or benefit?

Do you have the passage for this assertion?

 

[justasking4]

Please quote in the bible where it says this?

I Timothy 2:5
and

Hebrews 4
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

 

[LilyM]

I Timothy 2:5
and

Hebrews 4
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

So tell us, in your opinion, WHY do any of us seek the prayers of anyone else at all? Why did Jesus ask us to pray for each other if it is just as good for us to pray as individuals? Why did He say He would be present if two or three gathered, that if two or three agreed to pray for something it would be granted, but not necessarily if one prayed alone?

In short, why do we ever even bother to ask even those on earth to pray for us?

 

[Always_For_Him]

justasking4,
It seems that despite all of the scripture readings I provided for you and the scripture readings and information that others on this now 23 page thread have provided for you, you won’t take off your blinders. WE are the reason you have a Bible at all. Don’t you think that those who were taught by Jesus and the Apostles and with His Authority through the Holy Spirit continued teaching, knew Jesus’ words, teachings, Traditions in place at the time, Traditions practiced by Jesus, better than men that came along in the 16th century?
You are just reading scripture and interpreting it by what you think it is saying. This particular subject was not a problem, even for the reformers. If you read one of my previous posts, I wrote a quote from Martin Luther. All three reformers believed in Marian Dogma, the Communion of Saints, and believed that those in heaven were alive and could hear and understand us on earth. Intercessory prayer started being challenged in more recent years.

Where is the Trinity in the Bible? Where is it the Bible that sacy birth control is OK? As you can see, not everything is in the Bible. That is why you have to believe in Sacred Tradition. It was Sacred Tradition that helped spread Jesus’ gospel through the centuries because most people couldn’t read or afford a Bible. It was the early Church - the Catholic Church - that provided all of the scripture for you. Why, may I ask, did your predecessors take our Bible, the ONE, TRUE, Word of God, change it, take out books, change doctrine, add alone? Now you use THAT Bible to argue against Catholic teachings.

If you read what we have all proved for you with an open mind, void of any amended Protestant teachings, you would see MANY places in scripture that support intercessory prayer.

You are using our scripture and throwing it back in our faces with your interpretation. We have 2,000 years of UNCHANGED understanding of scripture and teachings from the time of Jesus and the Apostles.

How do you know exactly why there was a Reformation? Because your Church told you so? What exactly are the practices that you say the Church adopted that were not written in scripture? How would you know these practices and how wrong they were? Your Church told you to cover the truth that the Catholic Church is the original Church founded by Christ and his Apostles, and the truth that there was Apolostolic Authority. You do know that the Bible wasn’t written until 497AD, right? How do you think the teachings were spread, and who do you think spread Jesus’ Word? I’ll answer that for ya, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!!! Have you studied the crazy writings of the the three pillars? Have you read their rationalizations and justifications? Have you looked at every single change made from the early Church? Have you examined each change? I think if you had, you would see the errors. Too many great people set out to prove Catholocism, its beliefs, it’s doctrine, its AUTHORITY wrong and COULDN"T!!! All every single non-C has to do is look back at history to see how it was interpreted, understood without contridiction, believed, taught for generations until somewhere in the last 500 years, it changed. Look at why it was changed. Why did the reformers change anything? Is there any truth in their justifications? What did they know that the previous 1500 years of Christians didn’t know? I think it just really stems from the fact that each non-C is entrenched in their church’s own deep tradition and beliefs. The Catacombs give us what the general belief and understanding of the teachings as they were taught and practicied. How do you know that it was individual belief? Don’t quote your changed, individual interpretaion of many interpretations of Jesus’ ONE TRUTH, thinking you are right and the Catholics are wrong. PROVE IT!

 

[Good_Fella]

Tantum ergo;3707251]
It is well established in Scripture that all prayer is to be directed only to God. I Timothy 2:5 tells us that there is only mediator between God and man---- For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
A mediator is A mediator is one who mediates between two parties. As far as I can tell this is spoken of only of Christ and no else.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

We pray for one another because we love one another and we love one another because Jesus lives within us and Jesus is love.

Now are you going to tell me that that ceases once we die?

Who believes that?

And are you going to tell me that Jesus wouldn’t want us to pray for people on Earth once we have died?

Who believes that?

And if Jesus would want us to do that are you going to tell me that He wouldn’t give us the abililty to do that?

Who believes that?

And are you going to tell me that Jesus wouldn’t listen to His Mother and all the other saints praying for us?

Who believes that?

Now I’m no expert but when I pray to any of the saints–and that includes Mary–I always ask them to help me become closer to Jesus–I ask them for any help that they might could give me to become closer to Jesus and ask them to pray to Jesus for me.

Anyone that says such a prayer is wrong or that Jesus isn’t honored by such prayers–I just don’t understand that!

 

[justasking4]

LilyM;3753667]So tell us, in your opinion, WHY do any of us seek the prayers of anyone else at all? Why did Jesus ask us to pray for each other if it is just as good for us to pray as individuals?

There are a number of reasons why we should pray for each other here in this world. For one the Scriptures demonstrate this clearly in a number of places. Secondly, we need the prayers of others to pray for us to strenghten us in the faith. Jesus prayed for Peter for example that he would be strong.

Why did He say He would be present if two or three gathered, that if two or three agreed to pray for something it would be granted, but not necessarily if one prayed alone?

Actually both statement are true. He did teach that if you pray in His name i.e. according to His will, He will grant that request to the indviidual also.

In short, why do we ever even bother to ask even those on earth to pray for us?

Scripture teaches it and its good to know others are concerned about us to pray for us. This is especially true during a time of trial when our faith may be weak.

 

[LilyM]

There are a number of reasons why we should pray for each other here in this world. For one the Scriptures demonstrate this clearly in a number of places. Secondly, we need the prayers of others to pray for us to strenghten us in the faith. Jesus prayed for Peter for example that he would be strong.

Actually both statement are true. He did teach that if you pray in His name i.e. according to His will, He will grant that request to the indviidual also.

Scripture teaches it and its good to know others are concerned about us to pray for us. This is especially true during a time of trial when our faith may be weak.

If we need the prayers of others for the above reasons then we also need the prayers of those Christians who are alive in Christ in heaven. And it’s good to know that they too are concerned for us and pray for us.

Thanks for making our point.

 

[justasking4]

If we need the prayers of others for the above reasons then we also need the prayers of those Christians who are alive in Christ in heaven. And it’s good to know that they too are concerned for us and pray for us.

Thanks for making our point.

This is where context is so important. There is not one exhortation in Scripture where a Christian is ever to appeal in prayer to a person who has died. Not one. The only One we are commanded to pray to is Christ and God. Only Jesus is the Great High Priest Who intercedes before the Father for us. There is no third option.

There is good reason for this and not only for the reasons given above. Lets take the catholic position of praying to the deceased. Is it not true that you have no way of knowing if a particular person you pray to is in hell or purgatory? Is it not also true that you don’t know if a person is in purgatory can hear your prayers and do something about it?

 

[dmelosi]

There are a number of reasons why we should pray for each other here in this world. For one the Scriptures demonstrate this clearly in a number of places. Secondly, we need the prayers of others to pray for us to strenghten us in the faith. Jesus prayed for Peter for example that he would be strong.

Actually both statement are true. He did teach that if you pray in His name i.e. according to His will, He will grant that request to the indviidual also.

Scripture teaches it and its good to know others are concerned about us to pray for us. This is especially true during a time of trial when our faith may be weak.

Please explain Rom 8:35-39
and Eph 4:4
Col 3:15

 

[justasking4]

dmelosi;3757798]
Please explain Rom 8:35-39

Nothing shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ (verse 39). There is nothing here about any communication with the deceased.

and Eph 4:4

One body. Again, there is no mention of some kind of communication with the deceased.

Col 3:15

Again a reference to the one body of Christ. If you thinking that these passages support some kind of communication with dead Christians then you must read that into the passages. The only communication we have directly is with Christ to the Father.

 

[dmelosi]

Nothing shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ (verse 39). There is nothing here about any communication with the deceased.

36 (As it is written: For thy sake, we are put to death all the day long. We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.)
37 But in all these things we overcome, because of him that hath loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor might, I am sure… That is, I am persuaded; as it is in the Greek, pepeismai. 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Please don’t pick and choose what you want to display and leave out.

 

[CradleCath]

There are a number of reasons why we should pray for each other here in this world. For one the Scriptures demonstrate this clearly in a number of places. Secondly, we need the prayers of others to pray for us to strenghten us in the faith. Jesus prayed for Peter for example that he would be strong.

Actually both statement are true. He did teach that if you pray in His name i.e. according to His will, He will grant that request to the indviidual also.

Scripture teaches it and its good to know others are concerned about us to pray for us. This is especially true during a time of trial when our faith may be weak.

But, you don’t believe that those who are in heaven with God are concerned about us? You don’t think that Mary, St. Peter the apostle, Your departed relatives “are concerned about you”? You mentioned a time in a life when one is tried & feeling weak. Since those who have passed before are still alive…for if they aren’t, there was nothing gained by Christ’s Sacrifice…I would assume that they are part of those that Christ instructed to “pray for each other”.

In **James 5:16 we are asked to “confess your sins to each other and pray for each other **so that you may be healed.” and then told that “The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.” There are none who are so righteous as Mary.

 

[LilyM]

This is where context is so important. There is not one exhortation in Scripture where a Christian is ever to appeal in prayer to a person who has died. Not one. The only One we are commanded to pray to is Christ and God. Only Jesus is the Great High Priest Who intercedes before the Father for us. There is no third option.

There is good reason for this and not only for the reasons given above. Lets take the catholic position of praying to the deceased. Is it not true that you have no way of knowing if a particular person you pray to is in hell or purgatory? Is it not also true that you don’t know if a person is in purgatory can hear your prayers and do something about it?

There’s nothing in scripture that indicates that those in heaven don’t pray for us just as well as anyone else - your so-called context is entirely fabricated to suit your pre-conceived notions that only the living are worth having as intercessors.

And of course we know the prayers of the Saints in heaven are efficacious - God performs miracles thanks to their intercession precisely to let us KNOW that they are in heaven and their intercession is heard. And we know people in purgatory can pray for us because all the souls in purgatory are righteous and are guaranteed to proceed to heaven after being purged of their imperfections, they are thus alive in Christ as we and the heavenly saints are, and able to pray for and with us.

Come to think of it, the same question could be asked of you. If you ask someone to pray for you how do you know their prayers will be heard? What if they’re all horrid sinners to whose voice God turns a deaf ear, and you don’t know it? And you can’t be sure of ANYONE on earth that you ask to pray for you, since you can’t read souls.

 

[emeraldisle]

But, you don’t believe that those who are in heaven with God are concerned about us? You don’t think that Mary, St. Peter the apostle, Your departed relatives “are concerned about you”?

Gods revealed Truth in His word is subject to the concerns of His children for one another ??

In **James 5:16 we are asked to “confess your sins to each other and pray for each other **so that you may be healed.” and then told that “The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.” There are none who are so righteous as Mary.

Context CradleCath Context!

The James 5:16 verse is part of a letter that was sent from an earth dwelling Christian to earth dwelling Christians and so it’s obvious that the instruction given in this letter is to earth dwelling Christians. Therefore you can’t make a fanciful interpretation that this verse is teaching that earth dwelling Christians are to pray to Christians who have departed from this earth.

.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

justasking4: how do you explain Peter speaking to Tabitha in Acts who was dead and Tabitha becoming alive.

If that isn’t PROOF of God honoring communication with a dead saint–what is?!

 

[CradleCath]

If what you say here is true about praying to Mary why is it that those who knew her best i.e. Jesus or the apostles ever exhort Christians to pray to her?

Why is it that Christ never told us NOT to HONOR her. And why, if Christ died that we might have eternal life, do you think that the souls in heaven, who are ALIVE are completely separated from their loved ones? Where in Scripture does it say that they can not pray for their loved ones on earth?

A couple of more questions…do you Protestants go onto Jewish message boards to denigrate their beliefs in the guise of wanting to know more about their faith? Because you really don’t want to understand how Catholics feel & believe, you want to prove to yourselves that your own sects are right. This, imo., shows a terrible insecurtiy about your religion. How about Muslim & Hindu forums? Do you go to them & tell them how wrong they are…OR, is it just the Church that your forefathers erroneously left that you want to argue with? Your name tells it all. You are sects that were born of protest against the faith that Christ founded & none of you have grown into major religions, but split into…what is it now…20,000 - 30,000 different cults.

The only One we are to pray to is God-Christ. Only the Lord Jesus is our Great High Priest Who intercedes for us before the Father.

 

[CradleCath]

Gods revealed Truth in His word is subject to the concerns of His children for one another ??

No, but I would say that God’s concern for His Children could be subject to their love of each other.

Context CradleCath Context!

No, it’s not about “earth dwelling” Christians (that’s a new one phrase, NEVER spoken in Scripture). I don’t believe I’ve ever read one iota of the Word, that separates the Christians on earth, from those in heaven. Would you please quote the Scripture that separates us so. Maybe you haven’t heard, but Christ defeated death. The saints in heaven are as alive as you & I & they are praying for us. I really doesn’t matter where they “dwell”.

 

[justasking4]

justasking4: how do you explain Peter speaking to Tabitha in Acts who was dead and Tabitha becoming alive.

If that isn’t PROOF of God honoring communication with a dead saint–what is?!

Was it by her power that she was able to come back to life or that Peter was given the power from God to raise her up? I think John 11:41-42 gives us an idea how this was accomplished.

 

[Always_For_Him]

justasking4,
I have a few questions for you. Do you recite the Apostles’ Creed in your church? If yes, you profess to believe in the “communion of saints” in that prayer. We are now discussing what that means.
The word communion in Communion of Saints refers to the bond of unity among all believers, both living and dead, who are committed followers of Christ. In Christ, we are made part of God’s family (1Tim 3:15), children of God (1 John 3:1), joint heris with Christ (Rom 8:17), and partakers of the divine nature (2 Pet 1:4). This family communion of saints is known to Catholics as the Mystical Body of Christ. (The teaching that the Church is the Body of Christ is found throughout the NT: 1 Cor 10:16; Gal 3:28; Eph 1:22-23, 4:4, 4:15-16; 5:21-32; Col 1:18, 3:15)
It is the life and grace of Jesus that gives us life and unites us in our common pilgrimage to heaven.
St. Paul enphasizes this unity in Christ’s body in 1 Cor 12:12-27 (especially verses 25-27) and in Rom 12:4-16. I hope you will read these passages.