How and why to pray through Mary?

[Lampo]

You are making assumption about Heaven and those who are there. For example can they hear your “mental” prayers?
How do you know if a particular saint you may be praying to is even listening?

Mark 12:27 - In Christ we are alive, not dead even after our natural death. Spiritually we live.
Romans 8:35-39 - Death does not separate the communion of the body of Christ because we are united in Christ.
Ephesians 3:14,15 - We are all one family united together, whether we are on heaven or on earth.
Colossians 1:18,24 - We are the body, Jesus is the head of the church.
1 Timothy 2:1-3 - Paul urges intercessions and prayer be made for all people. It is okay to pray for each other and offer mediation in and to Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5 - While there is one mediator of the new covenant there are many intercessors in that covenant.
1 John 3:2 - The saints in heaven are more aware of God and more alive than we are now.
Hebrews 12:1 - We are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses.
Revelation 5:8, 6:9-11 - The prayers of the saints are offered and answered at the throne of God.

Would you like ECF writings about Saints interceding for us?

 

[Always_For_Him]

All that i know of heaven can be found in the Scriptures and they don’t say anything about a saint in heaven can hear your prayers.

and

The burden of proof is on your shoulders. I have already alluded to some of the problems with it.

I and others have repeatedly shown you where this is supported in scripture. Maybe your Bible is more different from ours than I realized. And, I beg to differ, the burden of proof is on your shoulders. The scripture that you quote and your Bible were all attained through the Catholic Church. Protestatism changed those Truths and teach you their interpretations of the Truth. You have to understand that if something needs to be proven, it should be why your interpretation of scripture is different from ours. We are the original interpretation of scripture and shouldn’t have to prove our interpretation. The ones who changed it shoud always bear the burden of proof.

 

[Always_For_Him]

Thank you Lampo for writing out those verses. I gave them in my previous posts, but ja4 was too busy refuting our evidence than looking all of them up himself to put them into a complete context.

 

[Always_For_Him]

Secondly, Paul TELLS us we have a ‘cloud of witnesses’ surrounding us at all times, Revelation tells us the dead see and hear and pray about everything that’s going on on Earth. Now witnesses of COURSE hear your words, that’s part of what it means to BE a witness.

I provided that very information and ja4 still continued as if it didn’t exist.

 

[justasking4]

Lampo;3761099]
Originally Posted by justasking4
You are making assumption about Heaven and those who are there. For example can they hear your “mental” prayers?
How do you know if a particular saint you may be praying to is even listening?

Lampo
Mark 12:27 - In Christ we are alive, not dead even after our natural death. Spiritually we live.

Context will help us to determine if any of these passages do teach some kind of communication with the living here and those who have died.
This verse speaks only of God being alive.

Romans 8:35-39 - Death does not separate the communion of the body of Christ because we are united in Christ.

This passage has nothing to do with our relationship to each other or some kind of communication between the living and dead.

Ephesians 3:14,15 - We are all one family united together, whether we are on heaven or on earth.

Paul is making a statement about the Father in whom all the families of earth and heaven derive their names. Again no mention of communication with the dead.

Colossians 1:18,24 - We are the body, Jesus is the head of the church.

1 Timothy 2:1-3 - Paul urges intercessions and prayer be made for all people. It is okay to pray for each other and offer mediation in and to Jesus.

This is true but the context has to do with the people in this world. You have no way of knowing if someone who has died has need of your prayers.

1 Timothy 2:5 - While there is one mediator of the new covenant there are many intercessors in that covenant.

Nothing here about praying to the saints.

1 John 3:2 - The saints in heaven are more aware of God and more alive than we are now.

Same as previous comment.

Hebrews 12:1 - We are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses.

The cloud of witnesses is a reference to those mentioned in chapter 11.

Revelation 5:8, 6:9-11 - The prayers of the saints are offered and answered at the throne of God.

On the surface it may appear that prayers are prayed to these saints. However a careful reading of the passages does not support that. In 5:8 you don’t have any direct prayers to the 24 elders but possessing bowls of incense which are the prayers of the saints.

Would you like ECF writings about Saints interceding for us?

If the ECF’s teach such a thing then its not based on the Scriptures. Reading the Scriptures carefully and in contexts is essential to understanding them and see if they do indeed support such a doctrine or practice.

 

[justasking4]

Is it possible they might not actually pray for you even if they tell you they will?

Yes.

 

[justasking4]

LilyM;3761091]Firstly, a person may hear your voice and may say they’ll pray for you, doesn’t mean they’ll actually do it, of course. So they may not act on your request either.

That may be. But the only way they could know i needed prayer was if i told them or some else did.

Secondly, Paul TELLS us we have a ‘cloud of witnesses’ surrounding us at all times,

If you are referring to Hebrews 12:1 here it is not speaking of about all the time. Secondly, the cloud of witnesses has to do with those examples laid out in chapter 11. The author is not saying we can pray to these “witnessess”.

Revelation tells us the dead see and hear and pray about everything that’s going on on Earth.

What passage says this?

Now witnesses of COURSE hear your words, that’s part of what it means to BE a witness.

Is this phrase in Hebrews 12 to be taken literally or is it a figure of speech about those examples in chapter 11?

It’s totally unscriptural to believe that you have no-one around to hear you or that you are EVER by yourself in that sense.

Not so. Scripture shows otherwise. Since you evidenetly believe this are you aware of the needs and wants of those who have died? If so how do you know?

 

[Tom]

I find it so odd that the Apostles will sit in judgement of the twelve tribes, yet can’t hear, or see or understand what the people are doing, after all they are dead, they can’t hear!
www.drbo.org:

Mt 19, 28 And Jesus said to them: Amen, I say to you, that you, who have followed me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit on the seat of his majesty, you also shall sit on twelve seats judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Or maybe it’s just them that get to witness?

 

[Tom]

www.drbo.org:

Luke 22,29 And I dispose to you, as my Father hath disposed to me, a kingdom; 30 That you may eat and drink at my table, in my kingdom: and may sit upon thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.

But wait they’re dead, they can’t hear us! How can they judge?

 

[Tom]

[quote=www.drbo.org]1 Cor 6, 2 Know you not that the saints shall judge this world?
[/quote]

But wait they’re dead, they can’t hear us! How can they judge?

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by www.drbo.org
Luke 22,29 And I dispose to you, as my Father hath disposed to me, a kingdom; 30 That you may eat and drink at my table, in my kingdom: and may sit upon thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.

Tom
But wait they’re dead, they can’t hear us! How can they judge?

What is it that Jesus is referring to? Were the disciples or apostles ever said to be sitting on any thrones while they were living in this world?

 

[Tom]

What is it that Jesus is referring to? Were the disciples or apostles ever said to be sitting on any thrones while they were living in this world?

My point was to the point of the thread, that saints, including Mary, can indeed hear our prayers. Do you agree?

 

[Lampo]

Yes.

So in a sense you could say that the person you asked to pray for you did not “hear” you because he did not pray for you. Since you think the saints in Heaven cannot hear you, thus cannot pray for you, you end up with the same result you *think *I end up with - asking someone to pray for you when in fact they don’t. Are you going to stop asking people to pray for you now? I doubt it because you have faith in them. Same with Catholics when praying *to *the saints. Catholics have faith in Jesus and His promise to the Church He founded; that He would lead His Church into all truth. Because His Church says that praying to the saints in Heaven is a good thing, we believe it.

 

[GailMac]

I can’t imagine life without my Mother and when I do look back on my life before becoming Christian, I wonder how I got along without her!

I think as has been suggested a simple meditation on one of John Paul II’s Luminous Mysteries - the Wedding Feast at Cana. (Please note, and this is for the edification of all our non-catholic brothers and sisters as well)

It is through *Mary’s earthly intercession *that the Water is turned to Wine! Why doubt any further her intervention on our behalf now that she’s in Heaven, where she can all the more know our needs!

Please note in careful reading of the passages that no one asked anyone about the wine running short, not even the disciples - Mary did. And Jesus’s reply to her was what do YOU want me to do!?! Not the guests, not the disciples, not even the wedding couple asked Him for a favor, but Mary did! And the conversation was only between the Mother and the Son until the miracle was assured and Mary told the servants what to do in anticipation of the coming miracle. She knew what He would do before anyone else did! Notice that *the servants trusted her *and did what she said, and so should we!

There is much more to think about in the passages, but suffice it to say that a miracle occurred, no one denies this fact, and it was at Mary’s request that it was done. I think this was done to show not only the wedding guests her power with God, but the disciples as well, and they learned that lesson well! This lesson is for all believers.

I also think that this miracle being given *pride of place *in St. John’s Gospel is very important. (It is the first of St. John’s Seven Signs! And **they are key **and some folks have spent a lifetime studying them.) Not only was it a sign for everyone there, but St. John recorded it for all to see in the coming generations so that yes, we too could call her Blessed as her Magnificat says we will. This is generally known as the 1st Public Miracle of Jesus and it serves many as proof, then as now, that He is God. But I take this further then do our non-catholic friends and say it also proves, at least for this pilgrim, that Mary does indeed intercede on our behalf and that miracles *did and will *occur if we trust in her as well as trusting in Jesus.

Trusting our Mother in Heaven doesn’t detract from our relationship with God at all. On the contrary it only enhances this.
Since you have acknowledged your misgivings about relying on her, I suggest you act boldly — why not ask for your own miracle at her intercession? Be careful you might just get what you pray for!!!

Or you could pray the Apostles’ prayer: “Lord I do believe, heal my un-belief.” That one is powerful too!

Oh, the other thing I wanted to say - please note that in order for the Church to declare a person a saint, it is through a bona fide miracle at the intercession of the person being venerated here on earth and that is by PRAYING to the person in question. This proof is for all to see and when the Church is satisfied that the person is in Heaven they ask for another miracle of healing to be sure before declaring the person worthy of imitation and before they give the new saint to the Church at large for their intercession. The Church protects us in this way.

I can’t imagine my life as a catholic without Mary or the Saints and Angels. They are a part of my everyday walk and I do mean my everyday walk! I pray to them constantly, own relics etc…

So please, please don’t risk losing this most important aspect of being catholic. Trust Mary, trust the Saints, trust God!

Peace,

Gail

 

[DebChris]

It has been said that we can pray directly to the Father through His Son Jesus. This is absolutely true and we do pray in this way. At the same time, we ask those who have gone to intercede on our behalf just as we might ask a friend to do likewise. Some saints have been named patron saints of this or that cause. There is a recognition of that saint’s having gone through similar situations to those we face on earth, it is a matter of recognizing that saint’s empathy for our own situation. On earth, we often ask friends and/or experts for their advice.
Today’s gospel message was Jesus again reminding the Sadducees where they misinterpreted Scripture. “God is a God of the Living and not the dead,” refering to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. If we accept that saints as alive, we can indeed ask them to intercede on our behalf. As Scott Hahn phases it, the moon (speaking of Mary) reflects the light of the sun (God). The sun is not insulted nor is God as long as we remember that Mary is not God. The saints have been venerated from the earliest years of Christianity. They are lifted up as heroes of the faith and a reminder of the holiness to which each of us has been called. We draw strength from the knowledge they gained throug experience.

 

[CradleCath]

Was it by her power that she was able to come back to life or that Peter was given the power from God to raise her up? I think John 11:41-42 gives us an idea how this was accomplished.

Of course it was God, who was **called by St. Peter **to save this girl. It is the same when St. Peter asks God to save another living Catholic.

 

[justasking4]

My point was to the point of the thread, that saints, including Mary, can indeed hear our prayers. Do you agree?

No.

 

[justasking4]

Lampo;3764188]So in a sense you could say that the person you asked to pray for you did not “hear” you because he did not pray for you. Since you think the saints in Heaven cannot hear you, thus cannot pray for you, you end up with the same result you *think *I end up with - asking someone to pray for you when in fact they don’t.

There is a major difference here. I can ask another person in this world to pray for me and they don’t its either because they forgot or didn’t intend to or something like that. At least i know they heard my request when i asked them and they acknowledged me verbally.
When you ask someone in heaven who you have never seen nor heard you have no way of knowing if they heard you.

Are you going to stop asking people to pray for you now? I doubt it because you have faith in them. Same with Catholics when praying *to *the saints. Catholics have faith in Jesus and His promise to the Church He founded; that He would lead His Church into all truth. Because His Church says that praying to the saints in Heaven is a good thing, we believe it.

What is the basis that the Catholic church claims someone in heaven besides Jesus or God can hear your prayers? The mere fact that an institution claims something to be true does not make it so. Secondly, if a person believes everything the church has taught and done was by the guidance of Jesus will find themselves in a number of contradictions.

 

[Always_For_Him]

ja4,
Are you reading any of the posts? Scripture after scripture has been provided for you. You have been taught differently and that has become an engrained belief. Have you read any of Martin Luther’s early writings (before he became his own Pope)? It is my understanding that the reformers believed in intercessory prayer. Am I wrong? Or was it just two of them? Either way, Protestantism has changed almost to an unrecognizable system from which it was originally established. How can beliefs just change or go away over the last 500 years from the founding beliefs of Protestantism? Please, just look at the changes. Really evaluate whether there is truth in them. You have to put a lid on your preconcieved ideas of what you “think” about the Catholic Church and our beliefs and interpretation of scripture. Put that aside for now. We were around 1500 years before Martin Luther, you have to admit something there. We are not making this up. Look back in early, early church history. You have to follow the trail and figure it out for yourself.

 

[GailMac]

Justasking,

I’m no expert but here goes: From Revelation 9 “After this, I saw a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and in sight of the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: Salvation to our God, who sitteth upon the throne and to the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne and the ancients and the four living creatures. And they fell down before the throne upon their faces and adored God, 12 Saying: Amen.”

This seems pretty simple to me anyway - there up in Heaven are a whole bunch of folks in white robes and holding palm branches (robes and palm branches being very earthly things) and they came from every place on earth with no racial barriers and they see Jesus and He sees them (He is the Lamb in the reading) God hears them when they speak and they conclude with the word “Amen!” the same way we end all our prayers, leastways I think so. They are also adoring God and there are angels and everything!

Then there is this passage in Chapter 8 of the same book: “And I saw seven angels standing in the presence of God: and there were given to them seven trumpets. 3 And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before the throne of God. 4 And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.” That angel is Michael, the Archangel, and there is a big picture of him in my home parish where I was baptised and it has the incense smoke going up to Heaven and always reminded me that my prayers where mixed in that incense and went up to Heaven.

Now, like I said, I’m no expert, just a plain ole layperson with no special education or position, but it seems to me the Bible does support God hearing the prayers of the saints here. I hope you begin to see it that way too!

Peace,

Gail

P.S. There is more stuff like that in the same book and it is very revealing! pun intended! LOL.