How and why to pray through Mary?

[justasking4]

ja4,
Are you reading any of the posts? Scripture after scripture has been provided for you. You have been taught differently and that has become an engrained belief. Have you read any of Martin Luther’s early writings (before he became his own Pope)? It is my understanding that the reformers believed in intercessory prayer. Am I wrong? Or was it just two of them? Either way, Protestantism has changed almost to an unrecognizable system from which it was originally established. How can beliefs just change or go away over the last 500 years from the founding beliefs of Protestantism? Please, just look at the changes. Really evaluate whether there is truth in them. You have to put a lid on your preconcieved ideas of what you “think” about the Catholic Church and our beliefs and interpretation of scripture. Put that aside for now. We were around 1500 years before Martin Luther, you have to admit something there. We are not making this up. Look back in early, early church history. You have to follow the trail and figure it out for yourself.

What you accuse Protestantism can also be laid at the feet of the Catholic church. It to has changed and is not the same as the NT church that we see in Scripture. Just because the Roman Catholic was in existence before the Protestant church doesn’t mean that all it taught and did was true or biblical. In fact this was why the Prostentant reformation was necessary. Many catholics during this time also recognized that the catholic church was in need of reformation.

 

[Always_For_Him]

ja4,
And how do you know this? Because your church told you so? You are not Catholic, right? Have you ever been Catholic? If not, then you don’t know what we believe, if we changed anything, or enough about Catholocism to make any remarks of the sort. In fact, we haven’t changed. You are right, there was need for some reform. Martin Luther’s original intention was to reform Catholocism. He was a Roman Catholic Priest who didn’t like some practices. It wasn’t teachings, interpretations or Sacred Tradition that he originally set out to change. He believed our teachings. He believed in Catholocism’s interpretaion of the Bible. He believed in Sacred Tradtion. He believed in the Trinity. He believed in Mary’s Diving Maternity. He believed that Mary was the Mother of God. He believed in Marian Dogma. He believed in all SEVEN sacraments, including the Sacrament of Reconciliation (confession.) There is so many more things I could name here. But, then later on as he began feeling he had power and knowledge that no one else had, he started thinking that he WAS the only one that knew the Truth and what Scripture meant. He did a 180 on some of these beliefs (but, not all.) So what happened to all of the beliefs that he did believe and were included in the founding of Protestantism? In 1520, he proposed to adopt the canon used by rabbinic Judaism of 39 books as the OT canon. He opposed books of the Christian OT because they taught doctrines he did not like, such as prayers for the dead (2 Maccabees 12:42-46). The Councl of Trent in 1546AD dogmatically reaffirmed the 73-book canon. The Catholics Church did not ADD seven books to the Bible at the Council of Trent. We had always had 46 books in our OT. Martin Luther actually subtracted seven books to better promote his own novel opinions. Trent merely reaffirmed the same canon the Catholic Church had established almost 1200 years previoiusly, and condemned anyone who sought to tamper with Sacred Scripture. Which OT would you rather use - the OT used by the apostles and other NT writers and the early Church, or the OT used by the later jews who rejected Jesus Christ. If your bible includes the seven books, you gollow the apostles and the other NT writers and the early Church. If your Bible omits the seven books, you follow the non-Christian rabbis and Martin Luther - a man whose view of Sacred Scripture allowed h im to deliberately add the word “alone” to his German translation of Romans 3:28. Luther’s private judgment was his only justificatoin for adding the word “alone.” “You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word ‘alone’ is not in the text of Paul. If your Papist makes such an unneccessary row about the word ‘alone,’ say right out to him: ‘Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,’ and say: ‘Papists and asses are the one and the same thing.’ I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well the word ‘alone’ is not in the Latin and Greek text, and it was not necessary for the Papists to teach me that.”
Luther also said, “I hate Esther and 2 Maccabees so much that I wish they did not exist; they contain too much Judaism and no little heathen vice. It is noteworthy here that Luther shows his private judgement here by including Ester (an UNDISPUTED canonical book) under the same condemnation as 2 Maccebees…” (The Canon of Scripture, 101)

Contrary to what you believe and what you have been taught, the Catholic Church has NOT changed. It is the same NT. Please show me where it is different? Show me in all of our earliest writings from the 100’s - 300’s a different interpretation of scripture from what we believe, practice and interpret now. What exactly are the things we have changed? Or is this just a blanket believe that you have been taught all of your life? It is Protestants and their 35,000 denominations that continue to this DAY to change the meaning of scripture, costantly re-inventing interpretation. So, it is back at the feet of Protestantism now, since they are the ones that changed everything.

 

[mlchance]

When you ask someone in heaven who you have never seen nor heard you have no way of knowing if they heard you.

And, in your continuing efforts to ignore Scripture and distort Church teaching, you now call into question whether even God Himself hears our prayers.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[guanophore]

What you accuse Protestantism can also be laid at the feet of the Catholic church. It to has changed and is not the same as the NT church that we see in Scripture. Just because the Roman Catholic was in existence before the Protestant church doesn’t mean that all it taught and did was true or biblical. In fact this was why the Prostentant reformation was necessary. Many catholics during this time also recognized that the catholic church was in need of reformation.

No, ja4, the Church has never been in need of reformation. The Church is the Holy and Pure Bride of Christ, and is prevented from error by the HS. It is people who are in need of reformation. You are failing to distinguish between the Holy Body of the Lord, who is infallible by nature of the Head (Christ) who is divine, and whose soul is the HS, who cannot err, and the fallible persons who are joined to her.

Furthermore, none of the Teachings of the church are “biblical” in the sense that they are “bible based”. On the contrary, all of the Teachings come from Christ, and are reflected in the NT, which was created from Sacred Catholic Tradition.

Are you trying to derail this thread also?

 

[justasking4]

mlchance;3768412]
Originally Posted by justasking4
When you ask someone in heaven who you have never seen nor heard you have no way of knowing if they heard you.

mlchance
And, in your continuing efforts to ignore Scripture

Not so. I have repeatedly demonstrated that the Scriptures don’t teach anything about praying to Mary. There is not one verse that supports such a claim.

mlchance
and distort Church teaching,

I know very well what the catholic church teaches on this and its not scriptural.

you now call into question whether even God Himself hears our prayers.

What makes you say this?

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[sebestt]

We pray “through” Mary not “to” Mary. Your last post said “to” and that is not accurate. God Bless!

 

[mlchance]

Not so. I have repeatedly demonstrated that the Scriptures don’t teach anything about praying to Mary. There is not one verse that supports such a claim.

You’ve been told ad nauseum the scriptural basis for the communion of the saints. You choose to ignore/distort Scripture on this topic because you’ve got too much of your life invested in not-being-Catholic.

I know very well what the catholic church teaches on this and its not scriptural.

See comments immediately above.

What makes you say this?

Reading is fundamental. You said:

Originally Posted by justasking4 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
When you ask someone in heaven who you have never seen nor heard you have no way of knowing if they heard you.

You’ve neither seen nor heard God. By your own standard, you have no way of knowing if God hears your prayers.

Yeah, yeah, I know. Scripture says God hears our prayers. That same Scripture also says the angels and saints in Heaven hear our prayers, but since you discount the latter, you’ve no reason to not discount the former.

Except, of course, for all the time and effort you’ve invested in not-being-Catholic.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[guanophore]

Not so. I have repeatedly demonstrated that the Scriptures don’t teach anything about praying to Mary. There is not one verse that supports such a claim.

What you have repeatedly demonstrated, ja4, is that your anti-Catholic lenses have made it impossible for you to understand the Scriptures with the understanding by which they were written. You have separated yourself from the Apostolic Teaching, and therefore, your understanding of scripture has suffered greately.

I know very well what the catholic church teaches on this and its not scriptural.

This makes sense, both because of your skewed perception of scripture, and because the Catholic Church is not “scriptural” in the sense that you use the word. The Catholic church is not based on the bible, but on the person of Jesus Christ. The NT is a reflection of that faith, written by, for , and about Catholics, which is why it is impossible to understand correctly from an anti-Catholic perspecitve.

 

[peary]

I’m very familar with these passages. The issue here is communication with the those who have died. If you look at all of these passages in context not one supports the idea of praying to the deceased. Not one.
The only prayers in Scripture we are to pray to is Christ and God. Jesus Himself promised that if we pray in His name He will answer. In it in tthhe authority of His name alone we are to pray.

**The issue is NOT communication with the dead, which both Tthe Church and the Bible condemn. Catholic Christians do NOT communicate with the ‘dead’. They ASK for prayers and intercession of the SAINTS IN HEAVEN to persevere in this life with God’s grace. I do not know of any instance where the Church advocates mediumship where the spirits of the so-called ‘dead’ are called upon to communicate. That too is condemned by the Church and the Bible. So, I really don’t know what the problem is with the understanding of the Communion of Saints. **

 

[justasking4]

We pray “through” Mary not “to” Mary. Your last post said “to” and that is not accurate. God Bless!

What is the difference?

 

[justasking4]

**The issue is NOT communication with the dead, which both Tthe Church and the Bible condemn. Catholic Christians do NOT communicate with the ‘dead’. They ASK for prayers and intercession of the SAINTS IN HEAVEN to persevere in this life with God’s grace. I do not know of any instance where the Church advocates mediumship where the spirits of the so-called ‘dead’ are called upon to communicate. That too is condemned by the Church and the Bible. So, I really don’t know what the problem is with the understanding of the Communion of Saints. **

I understand that the church would not call this communication with the dead in a occult sense but nevertheless it is a form of communication with the dead when you pray to them and expect them to hear your prayers and do something about them.

 

[GailMac]

Yo! We believe in the Communion of the Saints! It is part of the Creed we all share! How can one say “amen” to the Creed and agree that one believes in the Communion of the Saints, yet NOT believe in “talking” to them in a prayerful sense? You can’t walk down both sides of the street at the same time. The only way to do this is to distort the Creed as well.

So, I guess I am asking what does Communion of the Saints represent to those in this thread and how important is it (I already know the answer to this one, as I am catholic) to truely believe what we say in the Creed?

Peace,

Gail

P.S. As for talking to dead people, since God is a dead people and I spend much of my day just talking to Him, then I suppose you could find me guilty of talking to dad people. Is that occult? I don’t think so. ummmmmmmm…

 

[sebestt]

Do you know the difference between to and through?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

People that refuse to talk to the victorius dead saints are the deadest of all and are to be pitied and prayed for to the saints!

 

[Good_Fella]

I understand that the church would not call this communication with the dead in a occult sense but nevertheless it is a form of communication with the dead when you pray to them and expect them to hear your prayers and do something about them.

Is that so? :coffeeread:

If I recall, Jesus talked to Moses and Elijah during his transfiguration (Mt 17, 3; Mk 9, 4; Lk 9, 30). The lawgiver and the prophet were alive and well although deceased. And Matthew records that after Jesus had risen from the dead, “tombs were opened and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised…they entered the holy city and were seen by many” (Mt 27, 51-53). Their living souls were reunited with their bodies in the same way Lazarus had been raised from the dead by the power of the Holy Spirit. Paul tells the Romans (8, 35-39) that death cannot separate the members of Christ’s mystical Body, that is the Church, and His love. We are branches on the vine which cannot be cut off from it even after death provided we bear good fruit and persevere until the end (Jn 15, 1-6). The faithful both in heaven and on earth are living members of God’s family. In Revelation (5:8) we find that the saints who have preceded us in heaven offer up intercessory prayer on our behalf. They form the great cloud of witnesses who surround us spoken of by Paul (Heb 12, 1). God hears the prayers of all the righteous members of Christ’s mystical body: those on heaven and on earth. And He desires that we pray for one another ( Jn 2, 5; 2 Cor 13, 7-9). “Now we know that God hears not sinners, but if a man may be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he will hear” (Jn 9, 31). :coffeeread:

“He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
{Matthew 22, 32}

“Think of me, I beseech you, so that I may achieve with you the same fate of martyrdom.”
Hyppolytus (A.D. 204)

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[Always_For_Him]

So, what do Protestants think “Communion of Saints” means when they say the Apostles Creed? Do they know why it is called the Apostles Creed? Why do they say the Apostles Creed? Originally, Luther knew and believed Apostolic Succession and Apostolic Authority was what guarded and taught Christ’s teachings without error, which included scripture speaking of intercessory prayer. He believed in the Communion of Saints. (He believed in so much more - the seven sacraments (including confession, which was dropped thereafter because people didn’t like it- man changed that.) Luther founded Protestantism on those beliefs. Why is it that Protestants don’t believe in intercessory prayer anymore? In the last 500 years, teachings in Protestantism have changed so much that they don’t reflect the founding beliefs of Protestantism anymore.

 

[jean8]

I am a Catholic. But in my childhood I was bombarded with Protestant beliefs and ideologies.

I’m still a Catholic though. But, to this day I find it difficult or sometimes even silly to pray through Mary or the saints.

I pray to Jesus and the Father. And I’m heard. So why should I pray through Mary or the saints? How can I be sure that St.“so and so” is hearing me? And what’s the advantage of doing that when I know Christ hears me and so does the Father? Or is it that they cannot always hear me?

When did this practice of praying through Mary and the saints begin?

One reason to pray directly to God the Father is He knows what we need before we ask him.
He is also omnipresent. Mary does not have the attributes of God.the Father. Can she hear all of the prayers that are being offered to her?? the Bible is silent on this teaching.
The Bible also has a prayer for us given by Jesus in Mt.6:9-13

God bless,
jean

 

[jean8]

So, what do Protestants think “Communion of Saints” means when they say the Apostles Creed? Do they know why it is called the Apostles Creed? Why do they say the Apostles Creed? Originally, Luther knew and believed Apostolic Succession and Apostolic Authority was what guarded and taught Christ’s teachings without error, which included scripture speaking of intercessory prayer. He believed in the Communion of Saints. (He believed in so much more - the seven sacraments (including confession, which was dropped thereafter because people didn’t like it- man changed that.) Luther founded Protestantism on those beliefs. Why is it that Protestants don’t believe in intercessory prayer anymore? In the last 500 years, teachings in Protestantism have changed so much that they don’t reflect the founding beliefs of Protestantism anymore.

The Communion of Saints take in ‘all’ who believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior. We pray for each other, but not to departed saints. They cannot hear our prayers. Can you offer a passage from the Bible that teaches this practice?

God bless,
jean

 

[jean8]

Is that so? :coffeeread:

If I recall, Jesus talked to Moses and Elijah during his transfiguration (Mt 17, 3; Mk 9, 4; Lk 9, 30). The lawgiver and the prophet were alive and well although deceased. And Matthew records that after Jesus had risen from the dead, “tombs were opened and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised…they entered the holy city and were seen by many” (Mt 27, 51-53). Their living souls were reunited with their bodies in the same way Lazarus had been raised from the dead by the power of the Holy Spirit. Paul tells the Romans (8, 35-39) that death cannot separate the members of Christ’s mystical Body, that is the Church, and His love. We are branches on the vine which cannot be cut off from it even after death provided we bear good fruit and persevere until the end (Jn 15, 1-6). The faithful both in heaven and on earth are living members of God’s family. In Revelation (5:8) we find that the saints who have preceded us in heaven offer up intercessory prayer on our behalf. They form the great cloud of witnesses who surround us spoken of by Paul (Heb 12, 1). God hears the prayers of all the righteous members of Christ’s mystical body: those on heaven and on earth. And He desires that we pray for one another ( Jn 2, 5; 2 Cor 13, 7-9). “Now we know that God hears not sinners, but if a man may be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he will hear” (Jn 9, 31). :coffeeread:

“He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
{Matthew 22, 32}

“Think of me, I beseech you, so that I may achieve with you the same fate of martyrdom.”
Hyppolytus (A.D. 204)

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

Yes, Jesus can speak to anyone he wishes. We as mortals cannot.

jean

 

[dmelosi]

Yes, Jesus can speak to anyone he wishes. We as mortals cannot.

jean

Where does it say that in the bible?

The points you raise have been addressed throughout the thread.