How and why to pray through Mary?

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What we have said about the communion of saints gives us the biblical reasons why Catholics ask the saints to intercede for them:
  1. All Christians are members of Christ’s body and one another (Rom 12:5 and many others.)
  2. Jesus has only one body (Eph 4:4; Col 3:15).
  3. Death cannon separate Christians from Christ or from one another (Rom 8:35-39).
  4. Christians are bound in mutual love (Rom 12:10; 1 Thess 5:11; Gal 6:2).
    We are members of Christ’s one body, united in His divine life even beyond the grave, and concerned with each other’s salvation and growth in God’s family. In that union, we call fo rhelp and support from our older brothers and sisters who have already won their crown of glory.
 
Always_For_Him said:
justasking4,
I have a few questions for you. Do you recite the Apostles’ Creed in your church? If yes, you profess to believe in the “communion of saints” in that prayer. We are now discussing what that means.
The word communion in Communion of Saints refers to the bond of unity among all believers, both living and dead, who are committed followers of Christ. In Christ, we are made part of God’s family (1Tim 3:15), children of God (1 John 3:1), joint heris with Christ (Rom 8:17), and partakers of the divine nature (2 Pet 1:4). This family communion of saints is known to Catholics as the Mystical Body of Christ. (The teaching that the Church is the Body of Christ is found throughout the NT: 1 Cor 10:16; Gal 3:28; Eph 1:22-23, 4:4, 4:15-16; 5:21-32; Col 1:18, 3:15)
It is the life and grace of Jesus that gives us life and unites us in our common pilgrimage to heaven.
St. Paul enphasizes this unity in Christ’s body in 1 Cor 12:12-27 (especially verses 25-27) and in Rom 12:4-16. I hope you will read these passages.
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I’m very familar with these passages. The issue here is communication with the those who have died. If you look at all of these passages in context not one supports the idea of praying to the deceased. Not one.
The only prayers in Scripture we are to pray to is Christ and God. Jesus Himself promised that if we pray in His name He will answer. In it in the authority of His name alone we are to pray.
 
Necromancy means summoning forth spirits from the shadowy underworld (OT “Sheol”), in order to converse with them by asking the saints in heaven to intercede for us. Catholics are not conjuring roaming spirits or communicating in any “spiritualistic” way So prayer to the saints has nothing to do with necromancy.
Nor, are the saints dead. The saints in heaven are ALIVE and WITH God: “He is not God of the dea, but of the living” (Mk 12:26-27). In Mark 9:4, Jesus is seen conversing with Elijah and Moses. Jesus tells the Good Thief; “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” (Lk23:23). In fact, the saints in heaven are more alive than we are. They are free from all sin. They enjoy the fullness of God’s ife-giving presence. Flooded with God’s love, they care more about us now than they did on earth.
Just as Paul asked fellow believers (saints) to pray for him (Rom 15:30; Col 4:3; 1 Thess 5:25; Eph 6:18-19;2 Thess 3:1), now we can ask Paul and the other saints in heaven to pray for us. We are not cut off from each other at death, rather we are brought closer through the communion we share in Christ.
We know that the angels and saints place of the holy ones at God’s feet (Tob 12:12; Rev :8, Rev * 3-4), supporting those prayers with their intercessions. The martyrs underneath the heavenly alter cry out for earthly vindication (Rev 6;9-11), showing they are aware of, and concerned with, earthly affairs. The angels and saints in heaven will intercede for us begore the throne of God if they are petitioned in prayer.
 
It was said that 1 Tim 2:5 says there is one mediator between God and man. I read somewhere where some think that that is a violation of 1 Tim 2:5.
1 Tim 2:5 must be understood in the light of 1 Peter 2:5: “be yourselves built into a spirutual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God throught Jesus Christ.” St. Peter says that Christians share in the one, eternal priesthood of Jesus Christ. Jesus is mediator between God and man BECAUSE of his priesthood. Therefore, to share in Christ’s priesthood means to share in His mediatorship, both in heaven and on earth.
1 Tim 2:5 confirms that we share in Christ’s mediation, when we read it in context In verses 1-4, St. Paul asks Christians to participate in Christ’s unique mediation by offering prayers and intercessions for all men:
I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for ALL men… This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God ouor Savior.
We are called to unite ourselves to the one mediator Christ “who gave himself as a ransom for all,” by praying for all men, through Christ.
Becasue Christians share in the priesthood of Christ, we share in a lesser and dependent way in His unique mediation, interceding for all men.
 
Always For Him;3760820]What we have said about the communion of saints gives us the biblical reasons why Catholics ask the saints to intercede for them:
  1. All Christians are members of Christ’s body and one another (Rom 12:5 and many others.)
  2. Jesus has only one body (Eph 4:4; Col 3:15).
  3. Death cannon separate Christians from Christ or from one another (Rom 8:35-39).
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The passage in Romans 8 says only that nothing can separate us from the love of God. It says nothing about being separate from each other.
  1. Christians are bound in mutual love (Rom 12:10; 1 Thess 5:11; Gal 6:2).
    We are members of Christ’s one body, united in His divine life even beyond the grave, and concerned with each other’s salvation and growth in God’s family. In that union, we call fo rhelp and support from our older brothers and sisters who have already won their crown of glory.
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This all sounds reasonable but its not taught in the scriptures. Take you comment --“concerned with each other’s salvation and growth in God’s family” is true in this world but we have no such evidence nor teaching its true of those in the next. Remember that there is barrier that no can cross. See Luke 16:26.
Secondly we don’t need those who have died because we have everything need to grow in salvation by Christ. He is the One we go to when we need help. He is the One who has the power to save. He has also given us other fellow believers who can help and encourage us in times of need.

Hebrew 4:14-16 sums it up about this issue when it says:
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

The other problem with depending on those who have died is that you really don’t know their status in the afterlife. You don’t know if they can hear if they are in purgatory for example.
 
Lampo said:
Originally Posted by justasking4
The issue here is communication with the those who have died.

Lampo
Are the Saints dead in Heaven?
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No. Just because someone is alive somewhere does not mean you can communicate with them.
 
justasking4 said:
He has also given us other fellow believers who can help and encourage us in times of need.
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I agree with you JA4 on this point and so does the Catholic Church. We don’t leave out the Saints in Heaven with their ability to help and encourage us in times of need.
 
justasking4 said:
No. Just because someone is alive somewhere does not mean you can communicate with them.
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That “somewhere” you realize is Heaven. It’s not like I’m trying to communicate telepathically with my aunt twelve states away! There’s a little bit of a difference there don’t you think?
 
justasking4 said:
No. Just because someone is alive somewhere does not mean you can communicate with them.
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Death cannon separate Christians from Christ or from one another (Rom 8:35-39).

You have ignored this several times.
 
I know that you believe that fellow Christians on earth intercede for each other in prayer without contradicting the unique mediation of Jesus Christ. Likewise, there is no contradiction of 1 Tim 2:5 if the saints in heaven intercede for us with their prayers. All prayer, whether in heaven or on earth, IS IN Christ and THROUGH Christ, our one mediator and high priest.
The principle is this: although God alone possesses all perfections, we can participate in God’s perfection by sharing in His divine life. For example, the Bible says only God is good (Mk 10:18). Yet we can share in that absolute Goodness: “Well done, good and faithful servant” (Mt 25:23).
Jesus shares manyof His unique roles with Christians in lesser ways. Jesus is the Createor of all things (Jn 1:3; Col 1:16-17), and yet He shares this role with men and women in procreations. Jesus is the only Shepherd (Jn 10:11-16), yet He delegates this role to St. Peter (Jn 21:15-16) and later to tohers (Eph 4:11). Jesus is the eternal High Priest, mediating His once-for-all sacrifice for our redemption (Heb 3:1, 7:24, 9:12, 10:12), and yet Christians are also called to join in Christ’s priesthood, as we have seen (1 Pet 2:5; Rev 1:6, 5:10).
Obviously, Christ is the unique and primary Creator, Shaepherd, and Priest, but EACH Christian participates in these roles in subordinate ways. By sharing in Christ’s role as the only mediator.
 
Lampo said:
Originally Posted by justasking4
No. Just because someone is alive somewhere does not mean you can communicate with them.

Lampo;
That “somewhere” you realize is Heaven. It’s not like I’m trying to communicate telepathically with my aunt twelve states away! There’s a little bit of a difference there don’t you think?
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You are making assumption about Heaven and those who are there. For example can they hear your “mental” prayers?
How do you know if a particular saint you may be praying to is even listening?
These are just some of the questions and issues that need to be considered.

Praying to Christ directly doesn’t have these problems. I know by what he promised and Who He is that He hears my prayers.
 
dmelosi said:
Death cannon separate Christians from Christ or from one another (Rom 8:35-39).

You have ignored this several times.
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Here is the passage:
35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 Just as it is written,“For Your sake we are being put to death all day long;We were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.
”37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

There is nothing in this passage about being not being separated from each other. Its just not there. Rather the separation has to do with each believer not being separated from the love of God.
 
I’ve heard from Protestant friends and read on this thread that the saints can’t hear us and they couldn’t possibly hear all prayers from all different people, all the time.
Why not: Aren’t they more alive now than wh en they were with us? The medium of communication is Christ himself - the vine between the branches. We and all the saints form one communion, one body of Christ, being members of Him and members of one another. Heb 12:1 tells us that we are surrounded by “a cloud of witnesses.” How could those watching be unconcerned about our welbare? Look at Rev 5:8 and Rev 8:3. The petitions offered as incense to God must be for thos who still need help, the holy ones on earth. They are offered by those who can help the most, the holy ones in heaven."
In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man (Lk 16:19-30), the departed rich man is able to pray to Abraham and intercede for his brothers. This implies that there can be communiation across the abyss, and that fraternal charity extends beyond the grave.
We are certain that the saitns in heaven enjoy the face to face vision of God (1 Cor 13:12; 1 Jn 3:2). It is in this vision that they are aware of our prayers to them.
Heaven has no space or time. Everything appears to God as one eternal present. Like God, the saints are ou tside of the limitations of space and time. Our earthly way of knowing is limited and incomplete. “For now we see in a morror dimly, but then fce to face. Now I know in part; then I sh all understand fully, even as I have been fully understood” (1 Cor 13:12). Our heavenly way of knowing is full and perfect.
 
justasking4 said:
Here is the passage:
35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 Just as it is written,“For Your sake we are being put to death all day long;We were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.
”37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

There is nothing in this passage about being not being separated from each other. Its just not there. Rather the separation has to do with each believer not being separated from the love of God.
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You have said time and time again that there is nothing about death…I responded that it certainly does, in earlier posts you left this out.
 
Lampo;3760988]
Originally Posted by justasking4
For example can they hear your “mental” prayers?
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Lampo
I think it’s possible. Do you?
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I don’t know. It may sound reasonable but that does not mean its true.
Do you know something about Heaven that I don’t?
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All that i know of heaven can be found in the Scriptures and they don’t say anything about a saint in heaven can hear your prayers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
How do you know if a particular saint you may be praying to is even listening?
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Lampo
How do you know they are not listening?
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The burden of proof is on your shoulders. I have already alluded to some of the problems with it.
If you ask someone here on Earth to pray for you how do you know they actually will?
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The only way i can know is if i ask them directly to. I can call a friend up and ask him to pray for me because they will hear my voice and understand. If i’m by myself and no one is around to hear my words or thoughts no one will hear or know.
 
justasking4 said:
The only way i can know is if i ask them directly to. I can call a friend up and ask him to pray for me because they will hear my voice and understand. If i’m by myself and no one is around to hear my words or thoughts no one will hear or know.
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Is it possible they might not actually pray for you even if they tell you they will?
 
justasking4 said:
The only way i can know is if i ask them directly to. I can call a friend up and ask him to pray for me because they will hear my voice and understand. If i’m by myself and no one is around to hear my words or thoughts no one will hear or know.
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Firstly, a person may hear your voice and may say they’ll pray for you, doesn’t mean they’ll actually do it, of course. So they may not act on your request either.

Secondly, Paul TELLS us we have a ‘cloud of witnesses’ surrounding us at all times, Revelation tells us the dead see and hear and pray about everything that’s going on on Earth. Now witnesses of COURSE hear your words, that’s part of what it means to BE a witness.

It’s totally unscriptural to believe that you have no-one around to hear you or that you are EVER by yourself in that sense.
 
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