P
peary
Guest
But isn’t that the nonCatholic way? “I don’t agree; therefore, I am right and you are wrong.”
- Status
M
Morgana
Guest
All the help you can get doesn’t mean much if it is unnecessary. Perhaps I didn’t phrase it clearly enough. Is a single child’s prayer directly to God given less consideration by God than if the child had prayed with others and included the saints’ intercession? And if God hears all prayers, why not simply rely upon him, especially since it is only he who answers them?
T
Thing
Guest
…because …He said… ?
D
dcdurel
Guest
Someone wrote:
“Praying to God through departed saints(not in taught in the Bible) which leads to millions of people praying to God through Mary(not taught in the Bible) which leads to the suggestion that God has given Mary the ability to listen to all these prayer requests(not taught in the Bible) which leads to people focusing on Mary in their prayers (not taught in the Bible)”.
This idea that God’s teaching originate only through scripture is hard for non-Catholics to understand. And it is difficult to explain to them that God’s word can also be handed down in Tradition.
I think a better way is to start with Jesus Christ, as the Catechism does, since our Catholic faith does not come from the bible, but from Jesus Christ.
This is what the Catechism teaches:
1. Jesus Christ is the "fullness of all revelation"1
God has said everything in his Word.2
“In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one.”3
God has revealed himself fully by sending his own Son.4
Jesus Christ “completed and perfected Revelation”5
Thus it is not scripture that is the fullness of revelation, but Jesus Christ.
Revelation means what God has made known to us. While God has made known some of his knowledge through Abraham, Moses, scripture, etc. it is only through Jesus that He has made known everything regarding salvation.
Scripture is a witness to these teachings of the Church.
“All things have been delivered to me by my Father…” Mt 11:27
In Jesus "are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge” Col 2:3
In Christ “the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily” (Col 2:9)
Thus, it is not Moses, Isaiah, St. Paul, the bible, scripture, etc. which is the fullness of all revelation, but Jesus Christ.
Jesus taught the whole Gospel only to His apostles.
**Mt 13:11 **"to you it has been given to know the secrets of the Kingdom of heaven”.
**John 15:15 **“for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.”
John 14:26 “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.”
So Jesus communicated “everything” to His apostles when He taught them the Gospel and He sent the Holy Spirit to teach them again and explain what He taught and to give them the power to remember all He taught.
2. Jesus commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel. The Church teaches this Gospel “was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline.”1
Why is this Gospel that they preached and taught the source of ALL saving truth?
Because Jesus taught everything only to His apostles.
The apostles were taught “everything” and “all things” directly by God. So the Church teaches this Gospel they preached contains “the fullness of the truth which God has enabled us to know about himself”2 and as the Church has always taught it was to be “the source of all saving truth and moral discipline”3.
The origin of the doctrines the Catholic Church teaches is not scripture, but Jesus and the Holy Spirit who taught the apostles directly. Since Jesus directly taught His Church “everything” then there is no truth of salvation the Church could have learned from scripture. If the Church had learned any doctrine of salvation from the Bible, then that would make Jesus a liar when He said He taught them “everything” and “all things”.
1Catechism of the Catholic Church 75, Council of Trent, session 4. 2Redemptoris missio, 5 3Catechism of the Catholic Church 75, Council of Trent, session 4.
3. Jesus said Salvation comes from believing the Gospel the apostles proclaimed. Jesus did not say salvation comes from reading the the four Gospels, which are the narratives of the life of Jesus.
Jesus did not say salvation comes from believing the scriptures, or reading scripture, or by studying the scripture, but only by believing the Gospel the apostles proclaimed.
“He said to them, "Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:15-16
“Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word **I preached to you.**Otherwise, you have believed in vain.“ 1 Corinthians 15:1-3 (NIV)
Jesus said salvation comes from believing the Gospel the apostles preached, St. Paul says the same thing. Everyone in the New Testament learned the Gospel from believing what the apostles or their successors PREACHED, and since no where in the entire bible do we have any chapter, any paragraph that claims to be even a summary of this entire Gospel that the apostles preached, (the four gospels only claim to be a narrative of the life of Jesus, with some of His teachings) then we must conclude that salvation cannot come from believing the bible, but only from believing the Gospel the apostles preached and taught.
1"The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. 2 Abraham became the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers. 3 Judah became the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar. Perez became the father of Hezron, Hezron the father of Ram,"
That certainly would not have helped the pagan.
If John would have started reading from his own gospel,
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God., etc…”
The pagan would start off with “who is God”
Then John would have to quit reading and begin to explain about God, the Trinity, etc.
In other words, NO ONE can teach the gospel by reading scripture. Even Martin Luther had to come up with his two catechisms.
The difference is the Catholic Church learned the Gospel directly from Jesus, and learned EVERYTHING regarding salvation. Luther claimed the Gospel can be learned from scripture and that Jesus was wrong when He said to believe the Gospel that His Church taught and preached, even though ONLY this Gospel contained the fullness of revelation regarding salvation.
And even an atheist can know the content of the this Gospel that the apostles taught and preached. All they have to learn is what the early Christians believed that they said they learned from the apostles. And if we study what they believed, it was the same teachings the Church teaches today. In other words, the Gospel the apostles taught and preached was the Catholic faith.
“Praying to God through departed saints(not in taught in the Bible) which leads to millions of people praying to God through Mary(not taught in the Bible) which leads to the suggestion that God has given Mary the ability to listen to all these prayer requests(not taught in the Bible) which leads to people focusing on Mary in their prayers (not taught in the Bible)”.
This idea that God’s teaching originate only through scripture is hard for non-Catholics to understand. And it is difficult to explain to them that God’s word can also be handed down in Tradition.
I think a better way is to start with Jesus Christ, as the Catechism does, since our Catholic faith does not come from the bible, but from Jesus Christ.
This is what the Catechism teaches:
1. Jesus Christ is the "fullness of all revelation"1
God has said everything in his Word.2
“In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one.”3
God has revealed himself fully by sending his own Son.4
Jesus Christ “completed and perfected Revelation”5
Thus it is not scripture that is the fullness of revelation, but Jesus Christ.
Revelation means what God has made known to us. While God has made known some of his knowledge through Abraham, Moses, scripture, etc. it is only through Jesus that He has made known everything regarding salvation.
Scripture is a witness to these teachings of the Church.
“All things have been delivered to me by my Father…” Mt 11:27
In Jesus "are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge” Col 2:3
In Christ “the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily” (Col 2:9)
Thus, it is not Moses, Isaiah, St. Paul, the bible, scripture, etc. which is the fullness of all revelation, but Jesus Christ.
Jesus taught the whole Gospel only to His apostles.
Code:
**Mk 4:34** “He did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything.”**John 15:15 **“for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.”
John 14:26 “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.”
So Jesus communicated “everything” to His apostles when He taught them the Gospel and He sent the Holy Spirit to teach them again and explain what He taught and to give them the power to remember all He taught.
2. Jesus commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel. The Church teaches this Gospel “was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline.”1
Why is this Gospel that they preached and taught the source of ALL saving truth?
Because Jesus taught everything only to His apostles.
The apostles were taught “everything” and “all things” directly by God. So the Church teaches this Gospel they preached contains “the fullness of the truth which God has enabled us to know about himself”2 and as the Church has always taught it was to be “the source of all saving truth and moral discipline”3.
The origin of the doctrines the Catholic Church teaches is not scripture, but Jesus and the Holy Spirit who taught the apostles directly. Since Jesus directly taught His Church “everything” then there is no truth of salvation the Church could have learned from scripture. If the Church had learned any doctrine of salvation from the Bible, then that would make Jesus a liar when He said He taught them “everything” and “all things”.
1Catechism of the Catholic Church 75, Council of Trent, session 4. 2Redemptoris missio, 5 3Catechism of the Catholic Church 75, Council of Trent, session 4.
3. Jesus said Salvation comes from believing the Gospel the apostles proclaimed. Jesus did not say salvation comes from reading the the four Gospels, which are the narratives of the life of Jesus.
Jesus did not say salvation comes from believing the scriptures, or reading scripture, or by studying the scripture, but only by believing the Gospel the apostles proclaimed.
Code:
Again scripture is a witness to this.
Code:
St. Paul says the same thing.Jesus said salvation comes from believing the Gospel the apostles preached, St. Paul says the same thing. Everyone in the New Testament learned the Gospel from believing what the apostles or their successors PREACHED, and since no where in the entire bible do we have any chapter, any paragraph that claims to be even a summary of this entire Gospel that the apostles preached, (the four gospels only claim to be a narrative of the life of Jesus, with some of His teachings) then we must conclude that salvation cannot come from believing the bible, but only from believing the Gospel the apostles preached and taught.
Code:
Now the Gospel they preached and taught was not written anywhere. Nor could the apostles have preached it by reading scripture. In other words, if a pagan came up to John, after the 4'th Gospel was written, and asked him about Jesus, John could not have responded by reading scripture. If John would have quoted the beginning of the Gospel of Matthew,That certainly would not have helped the pagan.
If John would have started reading from his own gospel,
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God., etc…”
The pagan would start off with “who is God”
Then John would have to quit reading and begin to explain about God, the Trinity, etc.
In other words, NO ONE can teach the gospel by reading scripture. Even Martin Luther had to come up with his two catechisms.
The difference is the Catholic Church learned the Gospel directly from Jesus, and learned EVERYTHING regarding salvation. Luther claimed the Gospel can be learned from scripture and that Jesus was wrong when He said to believe the Gospel that His Church taught and preached, even though ONLY this Gospel contained the fullness of revelation regarding salvation.
And even an atheist can know the content of the this Gospel that the apostles taught and preached. All they have to learn is what the early Christians believed that they said they learned from the apostles. And if we study what they believed, it was the same teachings the Church teaches today. In other words, the Gospel the apostles taught and preached was the Catholic faith.
S
shusaku
Guest
I think it depends on how you see the Virgin Mary.
Mary was chosen by God the Father, and conceived God the Son through the Holy Ghost.
She wasn’t just Jesus’ mother, but his first disciple, and probably the one who spent most time with God on earth.
She experienced Jesus’ suffering, glory, and received the Holy Ghost in Pentecost.
To keep it short: I see Mary as the embodiment of the perfect disciple of God: she accepted God’s choice to give birth to Jesuschrist, and to witness (and assist) his ministry, passion and glory. That makes her an example to ALL christians.
Sometimes while praying, I meditate as if I was on Mary’s point of view, and present my prayers to God through Mary’s intercession. You don’t pray to Mary; you pray with Mary.
Juan
Mary was chosen by God the Father, and conceived God the Son through the Holy Ghost.
She wasn’t just Jesus’ mother, but his first disciple, and probably the one who spent most time with God on earth.
She experienced Jesus’ suffering, glory, and received the Holy Ghost in Pentecost.
To keep it short: I see Mary as the embodiment of the perfect disciple of God: she accepted God’s choice to give birth to Jesuschrist, and to witness (and assist) his ministry, passion and glory. That makes her an example to ALL christians.
Sometimes while praying, I meditate as if I was on Mary’s point of view, and present my prayers to God through Mary’s intercession. You don’t pray to Mary; you pray with Mary.
Juan
C
CradleCath
Guest
Absolutely. I think that, after the Mass, the Rosary is the most perfect prayer. The recitation of each decade is accompanied by meditation on one of the Mysteries of the Rosary, which are events in the lives of Jesus Christ and his mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary. We are speaking to the Blessed Mother all the while, through the prayer given to us by the angels…“Hail, Mary…full of grace”. We also pray the prayer given to us by Christ, Himself, the Lord’s Prayer 6 TIMES…along with giving glory to the Trinity…“Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end”.
A
Ancilla_Indigna
Guest
+JMJ+
If anyone says that someone is dead and cannot hear the prayers of the faithful on earth, they are sorrowfully mistaken as they are in numerous grave errors. The faithful that die in a state of grace go to Heaven (if not first suffer the purifying fires of purgatory). *(Read, “True Devotion” by St. Louis de Montfort and pray the collection of mostly ancient Christian prayers for the light of the Holy Ghost for understanding, “Preparation for Total Consecration.”)
Who would say that the Blessed VIRGIN MOTHER of GOD is anywhere else but in Heaven? Only a person who does not appreciate who Jesus Christ is totally. He is both fully Divine and fully human… and the woman who was chosen by God to take this important role of being in COMPELTE submission to the Father, SPOUSE of the Holy Ghost and virgin MOTHER of the Lord Jesus Christ is in Heaven.
Natural realities are encompassed by spiritual realities. In heaven, persons are not less capable to do the will of God, but COMPLETELY capable, because they are no longer hampered by self-will (or other things that hamper almost everyone that ever lived.) To say otherwise is to not trust the promise of God of Heaven.
The same way that God chose to have a woman bring forth his Son, God continues to have Jesus brought forth to the world through the same woman.
Who could truly believe in all that Jesus Christ teaches unless they believe that the Blessed Mother of Jesus Christ is worthy of hyperdulia?
She is also the woman the Holy Ghost speaks of in the first book of the Bible, and in the last book. She is the woman who crushes the head of the serpent in Genesis, and the woman clothed with the sun in Revelation.
Jer. 7:16 - God acknowledges the people’s ability to intercede, but refuses to answer due to the hardness of heart.
But God will make an exception for spiritual goods asked through his Mother, who Jesus Christ never denies for any truly good thing (that is, when it is expedient to the salvation of the person asking for the intercession). I know this first hand. I have since been given the supernatural grace to see clearly who Jesus Christ is because I prayed to the woman I first did not know. I believe now in Heaven and in the saints that are there because of the Blessed Virgin Mother’s intercession. Every single day I am totally aware of the gift I have been given — and that is a complete understatement, since not a single moment goes by that I am not conscientious of Jesus Christ’s gift to me that he willed to give me through his mother.
I also believe that it is impossible to remain at the foot of the Cross of our Lord in spirit (by means of higher prayer) without having a True Devotion to the mother of the Savior, Jesus Christ.
I belong to Jesus Christ because he gave me to his own mother.
YES! She can and does intercede for the true children of Jesus Christ. God gives us Mary that we might humble ourselves to know how to regard Him. The same is true about all the saints, but most prominently by the one who fulfills the prophecy of Isaiah, “My soul magnifies the Lord”, and who is Spouse of the Holy Ghost, virgin mother of Jesus Christ, and mother to all who desire Truth Incarnate in humility.
When Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, first greeted Mary when she came during her pregnancy, she recognized, by the light of the Holy Spirit, the honor that was due to her cousin. “Who am I that the MOTHER OF MY LORD should come to me?” If a holy woman like Elizabeth acknowledges the superiority of holiness of the Mother of God (second only to the Holy Trinity, from Whom all good things come), who are we not to recognize the sacred role in salvation history played continuously by the Mother of the Lord?
Think also of the Wedding Feast at Cana — our Lord, referring to his mother in the most respectful exclamation at that time, “Woman” (which today has denigrated to a derogatory context in most cultures, sadly to say) and says that it wasn’t his time to begin his public ministry — which would begin reveal publicly who he truly was. He even says, “what is this to me?” but never-the-less, our Lord God humbles himself to the will of the most exalted creation of God — the Blessed Mother of Jesus Christ. He then concedes to make new wine out of the empty ones, just as our Lord continues to do today – bringing new grace into those who are without it — or have wasted the first graces of Baptism. Through his own mother he reveals himself by pouring his grace into those who listen to the words of a simple handmaid, “Do whatever he tells you.”
BEHOLD THY MOTHER!
En Jesu per Mariam~
If anyone says that someone is dead and cannot hear the prayers of the faithful on earth, they are sorrowfully mistaken as they are in numerous grave errors. The faithful that die in a state of grace go to Heaven (if not first suffer the purifying fires of purgatory). *(Read, “True Devotion” by St. Louis de Montfort and pray the collection of mostly ancient Christian prayers for the light of the Holy Ghost for understanding, “Preparation for Total Consecration.”)
Who would say that the Blessed VIRGIN MOTHER of GOD is anywhere else but in Heaven? Only a person who does not appreciate who Jesus Christ is totally. He is both fully Divine and fully human… and the woman who was chosen by God to take this important role of being in COMPELTE submission to the Father, SPOUSE of the Holy Ghost and virgin MOTHER of the Lord Jesus Christ is in Heaven.
Natural realities are encompassed by spiritual realities. In heaven, persons are not less capable to do the will of God, but COMPLETELY capable, because they are no longer hampered by self-will (or other things that hamper almost everyone that ever lived.) To say otherwise is to not trust the promise of God of Heaven.
The same way that God chose to have a woman bring forth his Son, God continues to have Jesus brought forth to the world through the same woman.
Who could truly believe in all that Jesus Christ teaches unless they believe that the Blessed Mother of Jesus Christ is worthy of hyperdulia?
She is also the woman the Holy Ghost speaks of in the first book of the Bible, and in the last book. She is the woman who crushes the head of the serpent in Genesis, and the woman clothed with the sun in Revelation.
Jer. 7:16 - God acknowledges the people’s ability to intercede, but refuses to answer due to the hardness of heart.
But God will make an exception for spiritual goods asked through his Mother, who Jesus Christ never denies for any truly good thing (that is, when it is expedient to the salvation of the person asking for the intercession). I know this first hand. I have since been given the supernatural grace to see clearly who Jesus Christ is because I prayed to the woman I first did not know. I believe now in Heaven and in the saints that are there because of the Blessed Virgin Mother’s intercession. Every single day I am totally aware of the gift I have been given — and that is a complete understatement, since not a single moment goes by that I am not conscientious of Jesus Christ’s gift to me that he willed to give me through his mother.
I also believe that it is impossible to remain at the foot of the Cross of our Lord in spirit (by means of higher prayer) without having a True Devotion to the mother of the Savior, Jesus Christ.
I belong to Jesus Christ because he gave me to his own mother.
YES! She can and does intercede for the true children of Jesus Christ. God gives us Mary that we might humble ourselves to know how to regard Him. The same is true about all the saints, but most prominently by the one who fulfills the prophecy of Isaiah, “My soul magnifies the Lord”, and who is Spouse of the Holy Ghost, virgin mother of Jesus Christ, and mother to all who desire Truth Incarnate in humility.
When Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, first greeted Mary when she came during her pregnancy, she recognized, by the light of the Holy Spirit, the honor that was due to her cousin. “Who am I that the MOTHER OF MY LORD should come to me?” If a holy woman like Elizabeth acknowledges the superiority of holiness of the Mother of God (second only to the Holy Trinity, from Whom all good things come), who are we not to recognize the sacred role in salvation history played continuously by the Mother of the Lord?
Think also of the Wedding Feast at Cana — our Lord, referring to his mother in the most respectful exclamation at that time, “Woman” (which today has denigrated to a derogatory context in most cultures, sadly to say) and says that it wasn’t his time to begin his public ministry — which would begin reveal publicly who he truly was. He even says, “what is this to me?” but never-the-less, our Lord God humbles himself to the will of the most exalted creation of God — the Blessed Mother of Jesus Christ. He then concedes to make new wine out of the empty ones, just as our Lord continues to do today – bringing new grace into those who are without it — or have wasted the first graces of Baptism. Through his own mother he reveals himself by pouring his grace into those who listen to the words of a simple handmaid, “Do whatever he tells you.”
BEHOLD THY MOTHER!
En Jesu per Mariam~
D
Dinant
Guest
I just read all the comments on this threat until now, and I have to say it raised a lot of questions, on different sides…
I hope I’m not out of line to ask what my biggest concern is with praying with/to the saints and especcially Mary. It seems to me it is also the question of the starter of this post.
When I read the Bible, I see the stories of God with His people. People messing it up, making a mess. Than, God does, what He intended to do from the beginning of time: He came down to earth, lived, died and rose from the death. He suffered pain, Jesus suffered pain. But He and His Father suffered pain from almost the beginning of Creation, because of our sin. We fall so short of His Glory, we do everything to give Him a reason to whipe us out. We, every individual, gave God enough reason to turn away from us. But we all know, I hope, what He did. He chose not to condemn us, but to do everything so we can be with Him. His Fatherheart is so large, so Big, so incredibly loving.
Also when I see what Jesus and the first christians teached, than I see one red line: Sonship. Jesus wants to make us His brothers. Sons of the Father. I feel so much Love from the Father, and this Love can come to me through the mediating and intercession of Jesus Christ, my lord and saviour. I just can’t see, how in a thousand years I need somebody else to begg something for me of our Father.
But of course, the Bible teaches that we have to pray for eachother, as mentioned a copple of times on this threat. Is the reason of that, that we have to persuade God of doing good, or persuade ourselves of the good things God already gave to us? Is it we that need intercession, or God? As far as I understand, Gods loving Fatherheart, is always pointed to us, but our hearts are most of the time turned the other side.
Am I sounding very silly?
In prayer
Dinant
I hope I’m not out of line to ask what my biggest concern is with praying with/to the saints and especcially Mary. It seems to me it is also the question of the starter of this post.
When I read the Bible, I see the stories of God with His people. People messing it up, making a mess. Than, God does, what He intended to do from the beginning of time: He came down to earth, lived, died and rose from the death. He suffered pain, Jesus suffered pain. But He and His Father suffered pain from almost the beginning of Creation, because of our sin. We fall so short of His Glory, we do everything to give Him a reason to whipe us out. We, every individual, gave God enough reason to turn away from us. But we all know, I hope, what He did. He chose not to condemn us, but to do everything so we can be with Him. His Fatherheart is so large, so Big, so incredibly loving.
Also when I see what Jesus and the first christians teached, than I see one red line: Sonship. Jesus wants to make us His brothers. Sons of the Father. I feel so much Love from the Father, and this Love can come to me through the mediating and intercession of Jesus Christ, my lord and saviour. I just can’t see, how in a thousand years I need somebody else to begg something for me of our Father.
But of course, the Bible teaches that we have to pray for eachother, as mentioned a copple of times on this threat. Is the reason of that, that we have to persuade God of doing good, or persuade ourselves of the good things God already gave to us? Is it we that need intercession, or God? As far as I understand, Gods loving Fatherheart, is always pointed to us, but our hearts are most of the time turned the other side.
Am I sounding very silly?
In prayer
Dinant
D
dmelosi
Guest
The issue as mentioned before is most protestants believing that Catholics pray to the dead.
That couldn’t be further from the truth. Those that leave this life before us and go to heaven are very much alive in Christ.
There is noone on here that I have seen that is against praying for others or asking others to pray for us.
That couldn’t be further from the truth. Those that leave this life before us and go to heaven are very much alive in Christ.
There is noone on here that I have seen that is against praying for others or asking others to pray for us.
C
ChrisWRIT
Guest
Not at all. You’re thoughts are on the right track, but seem to veer off before reaching their logical conclusion.
Yes, we are commanded not only to pray for each other, but also to ask each other for prayers.
The central issue is what you point out, that we are sons & daughters of God! This makes the entire body of Christ family!
The saints in heaven are also sons & daughters of God – they are members of the same family. Since the Father is “not the God of the dead, but of the living”, we can ask not only our brothers & sisters on earth to pray for us, but our brothers & sisters in heaven as well!
(Boy, I’m pretty exclamation-point-happy today; sheesh! Errr…)
Mary & the saints currently live in heaven, in the presence of the Father, have been completely sanctified & made perfect – they are far more righteous than we on earth are, so it is reasonable to believe that their prayers are more “powerful & effective” (James 5:16) than simply our own.
We don’t have to look at the universe as “Just me & Jesus” since we are members of God’s family. As such, we can both help & rely on one another, just as the Bible says we should.
God Bless,
Chris
D
Dinant
Guest
Thanks for your answer. I think it’s indeed true that having one Father, makes us one family, you point that out very clearly.
I have still two questions though, I hope you don’t mind. I don’t ask the questions for the questions, but because I really search for the Truth.
First, is God really saying that the ones closer to Him, more righteousness, more perfect, are the ones He hears more quickly? I directly have some situations in my head, with I think the most important the story of the prodigal son. The oldest son was a man in the Fathers house. He worked for Him, was close to Him, and did everything the Father wanted Him to do. Though, it seems to me that Father would listen to the prodigal quicker just because he was so far away. Looking to His Fatherheart, to the good shepherd, I don’t see why God would listen to saints in heaven more quickly.
Secondly, when it is true that God listens more quickly to the saints, and that is the reason to pray to them, I come to another point again. Is the reason for intercession that God needs it, or the onces interceeding?
I love it that you say that you don’t have to be ‘completely alone with Jesus’(God)… Personally God would stress it a bit further still, we are to be ONE. Not on our own. I can’t understand how to be christian without loving the saints…
God Bless
Dinant
D
DebChris
Guest
God does not change. The purpose of prayer is communication. As a result, we are changed.
There is more rejoicing in heaven over one repentent sinner than for the 99 who have no need of repentence.
The prodigal son symbolizes the sinner who repents and is welcomed home. The older son was jealous, unaware of his own faults.
Consider your own family, even without dwelling on why a person may have left. What is our reaction when we learn that somebody that we have not seen in a long time is coming home? I can relate to my own childhood in a military family. When one of my brothers came home, I gave up my bed and slept on the floor. This was the expectation. It was something I was happy to do.
There is more rejoicing in heaven over one repentent sinner than for the 99 who have no need of repentence.
The prodigal son symbolizes the sinner who repents and is welcomed home. The older son was jealous, unaware of his own faults.
Consider your own family, even without dwelling on why a person may have left. What is our reaction when we learn that somebody that we have not seen in a long time is coming home? I can relate to my own childhood in a military family. When one of my brothers came home, I gave up my bed and slept on the floor. This was the expectation. It was something I was happy to do.
E
emeraldisle
Guest
The “someone wrote” is me.
You have stated that the Catholic faith doesn’t come from the Bible, well that explains why millions of Catholic are trying to pray to God through Mary.
Please see the Lord Jesus’ teaching re prayer, which of course is in the Bible, see Matthew 6.
.
E
Eilish_Maura
Guest
There is no lag time, no tape delay, when it comes to God hearing our prayers.
R
revelations
Guest
I love getting this argument from the other side. Let’s look at matthew 6 to show that you are coming from a completely erroneous reading:
** 5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men…] "
**This doesn’t say anything about NOT praying to Mary or the saints.
**6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
**This passage shows the private and sacred nature that prayer is supposed to have. Pray in secret, so that only those in heaven know you are praying with and to them, and you will be rewarded. No where does this say you CANNOT pray to Mary of the saints.
**7****And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
**
Finally the bread and butter. I have heard this argument so many times with respect to catholic prayer that if i had a nickle… Now, all this says is that long eloquently worded prayers are not better than short, from the heart prayers. This says nothing about praying to mary or the saints…but you will come back and say that praying the rosary is vain and repetitious, but what if i say i dont pray the rosary? What if i just look to the heavens every now and then and say “Mary, PRAY FOR ME!!!” Again, weak argument.
Finally, if Jesus was so against repetitive prayers, why did he give us the our father in the next lines?
1,000,000 Our Father recitations are not even equal to 1 reverent and heartfelt recitation.
Finally, i challenge you to find me anywhere in the bible where it says the bible is the only, sole, final word, on anything related to faith practices. I think you will find that tradition is also mentioned in many places. Sticking only to scripture and disregarding holy tradition is a present day heresy which is crippling the faith of many. The blessed mother is real, and Jesus gave her to us to be our spiritual mother.
And the bible comes from Catholics, not the other way around. At the time of the assembly of scripture, all the present day practices were well accepted, and scripture agreed with, and backed them all up.
I’m sorry emeraldisle, but you’ll have to do better than this so far. These are the same tired and weak arguments that have been passed around for ages. Come with something solid.
R
revelations
Guest
An interesting thought about that actually. Imagine God, the creator of everything. He created time, and is therefore not bound by it. He can come and go throughout the entire spectrum of time that he has planned out. The times and days of the end, each birth and death, all timed out perfectly.
So, imagine you are God. What I would do is set up time so that one day in heaven is equal to lets say, a fraction of a fraction of a second here. That way God can handle all of the prayers and petitions.
God is not bound by time, imagine and reflect on this.
Padre Pio used to pray that his grandfather would die a peaceful death. At the time, he had been dead for 10 years. God can apply prayers and petitions at any time he wishes.
E
emeraldisle
Guest
Did the Lord Jesus teach us to repeat the prayer He used as an example of how we should pray?
Also you avoided the fact that the Lord Jesus didn’t teach that prayer to God should be done through Mary.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
E
emeraldisle
Guest
In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Matt 6:9
Thy will be done = God teaching to pray to Him through Mary???
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R
revelations
Guest
And you’re missing the point that Jesus didn’t teach that we SHOULDN’T ask mary to pray for us in intercession.
Do you pray for your loved ones? When they die are you going to stop praying for them, and asking them to help you? When you die and go to heaven, are you going to pray for your loved ones still left behind on earth? I.E. Intercede for them?
Let me ask you one serious question, what is your objection to the practice that is heavily documented as early as 100 AC? Do you not like the blessed mother? Not think she deserves some honor and accolade?
For the umpteenth time, no catholic PRAYS to Mary, they ask for her intercessory prayers. Remember the wedding at Cana, when Jesus could not resist the demand of her mother to help them with the wine?
It goes “Holy Mary, mother of God, PRAY FOR US sinners now and at the hour of our death”
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