E
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Not to be argumentative, EM (I hope) but can you please show us exactly where “The Church teaches” that God **cannot be **petitioned by, influenced through prayers of others by, or approached with the use of intercessors by, any person? TIA.
IOW --‘softened up.’
IOW --‘softened up.’
E
Eilish_Maura
Guest
God will not be ‘softened up’ to give us something it was not his will to do anyway - not like the description of being afraid of asking dad for what you want.Not to be argumentative, EM (I hope) but can you please show us exactly where “The Church teaches” that God **cannot be **petitioned by, influenced through prayers of others by, or approached with the use of intercessors by, any person? TIA.
IOW --‘softened up.’
D
Deeda58
Guest
ROLLTIDE…how’s this for a verse about PRAYING TO THE DEAD? He didn’t want the Jews who he was delivering through the Red Sea to the Promised Land…and I don’t see anywhere in scripture where He’s changed his mind. This was quoted from the Living Bible…but I can type it in any version you like…it says the same thing…an abomination, etc.
Deuteronomy 18:9-12
“When you come into the promised land you must be very careful lest you be corrupted by the HORRIBLE CUSTOMS of the nations living there. For example, any Israeli who presents his child to be burned to death as a sacrifice to heathen gods, must be killed. No Israeli may practice BLACK MAGIC…or call on the evil spirits for aid, or be a FORTUNE TELLER, or be a SERPENT CHARMER, MEDIUM OR WIZARD, or CALL FORTH THE SPIRITS OF THE DEAD. Anyone doing these things is an OBJECT OF HORROR and DISGUST to the Lord, and it is because of the nations who ddo these things that the Lord your God will displace them.”
Linda
Arizona
Deuteronomy 18:9-12
“When you come into the promised land you must be very careful lest you be corrupted by the HORRIBLE CUSTOMS of the nations living there. For example, any Israeli who presents his child to be burned to death as a sacrifice to heathen gods, must be killed. No Israeli may practice BLACK MAGIC…or call on the evil spirits for aid, or be a FORTUNE TELLER, or be a SERPENT CHARMER, MEDIUM OR WIZARD, or CALL FORTH THE SPIRITS OF THE DEAD. Anyone doing these things is an OBJECT OF HORROR and DISGUST to the Lord, and it is because of the nations who ddo these things that the Lord your God will displace them.”
Linda
Arizona
E
Eilish_Maura
Guest
NOTHING discussed here comes anywhere near ‘calling forth the spirits of the dead’.ROLLTIDE…how’s this for a verse about PRAYING TO THE DEAD? He didn’t want the Jews who he was delivering through the Red Sea to the Promised Land…and I don’t see anywhere in scripture where He’s changed his mind. This was quoted from the Living Bible…but I can type it in any version you like…it says the same thing…an abomination, etc.
Deuteronomy 18:9-12
“When you come into the promised land you must be very careful lest you be corrupted by the HORRIBLE CUSTOMS of the nations living there. For example, any Israeli who presents his child to be burned to death as a sacrifice to heathen gods, must be killed. No Israeli may practice BLACK MAGIC…or call on the evil spirits for aid, or be a FORTUNE TELLER, or be a SERPENT CHARMER, MEDIUM OR WIZARD, or CALL FORTH THE SPIRITS OF THE DEAD. Anyone doing these things is an OBJECT OF HORROR and DISGUST to the Lord, and it is because of the nations who ddo these things that the Lord your God will displace them.”
Linda
Arizona
D
Deeda58
Guest
CRADLECATH…
With reference to the miracle of water to wine…at the wedding in Cana…
Where does it say that Mary Insisted? She didn’t INSIST Jesus do it…she simply told the men to go fill the pots with water. Where do you get this stuff? You ADD to the meaning of scripture.
Jesus, being full of grace and truth, DID IT BECAUSE OF WHO HE IS…not because Mary INSISTED. You’ve stretched scripture to meet our argument.
Read my verse above about praying to the dead…
You’ve also forgotten about Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham… and the rich man…he wanted to GO BACK TO EARTH and WARN HIS BROTHERS…but Abraham said there was a chasm…and it could not be broken. Besides, he said…if they didn’t believe moses…why would they believe you?
That story shows that there is NO COMMUNICATION between those on the other side of the chasm…and us. Satan would like you to believe there is…so he can keep your eyes off of Jesus, and praying to Him and the Father…he doesn’t care where your eyes are…as long as they’re OFF OF JESUS!
Linda
Arizona
With reference to the miracle of water to wine…at the wedding in Cana…
Where does it say that Mary Insisted? She didn’t INSIST Jesus do it…she simply told the men to go fill the pots with water. Where do you get this stuff? You ADD to the meaning of scripture.
Jesus, being full of grace and truth, DID IT BECAUSE OF WHO HE IS…not because Mary INSISTED. You’ve stretched scripture to meet our argument.
Read my verse above about praying to the dead…
You’ve also forgotten about Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham… and the rich man…he wanted to GO BACK TO EARTH and WARN HIS BROTHERS…but Abraham said there was a chasm…and it could not be broken. Besides, he said…if they didn’t believe moses…why would they believe you?
That story shows that there is NO COMMUNICATION between those on the other side of the chasm…and us. Satan would like you to believe there is…so he can keep your eyes off of Jesus, and praying to Him and the Father…he doesn’t care where your eyes are…as long as they’re OFF OF JESUS!
Linda
Arizona
P
peary
Guest
Go read the Old Testament. He was always giving His Chosen People another chance. To love means one has feelings.Please show where the Church teaches that God must be ‘softened up’. TIA
**What exactly do you mean by being “softened up”? **
Also - using your items – it would seem God worked through his issues of justice vs mercy without us interfering.
D
Deeda58
Guest
Oh really, Rolltide? Is Mary resurrected with her glorified body yet? Or has only Jesus resurrected so far? Has the rapture happened yet?
What about the chasm between us and them? “story of Abraham and Lazarus in his bosom”…?
Linda
What about the chasm between us and them? “story of Abraham and Lazarus in his bosom”…?
Linda
E
Eilish_Maura
Guest
Please do not sidetrack the thread. TIA.Oh really, Rolltide? Is Mary resurrected with her glorified body yet? Or has only Jesus resurrected so far? Has the rapture happened yet?
What about the chasm between us and them? “story of Abraham and Lazarus in his bosom”…?
Linda
E
Eilish_Maura
Guest
God always had plans for our salvation and always knew how much had to be tolerated/forgiven along the way to achieve his plan.Go read the Old Testament. He was always giving His Chosen People another chance. To love means one has feelings.
God is not some strict father who you cannot go to directly, who needs someone to ‘soften’ him up before he hears us.
L
LilyM
Guest
And yet Jesus gave us the Our Father, which is a prayer in which we petition the Father (why, when according to your logic we need not even bother approaching Him at all really, He’ll give us whatever, or not, regardless).God will not be ‘softened up’ to give us something it was not his will to do anyway - not like the description of being afraid of asking dad for what you want.
Very simply, Jesus commands us to love one another as He has loved us. His love included graciously acceding to the request of Mary even though, as He said (and He couldn’t have been telling an untruth) it wasn’t His time. And it certainly included petitioning the Father, ‘buttering Him up’ if you will (as if Jesus wasn’t trying to do that when He pleaded for His suffering to be taken away in Gethsemane!)
Has it never occurred to you that the desire to pray through others, to ask for their prayers, is ALSO part of God’s will for us, since He implants in so many of us the desire to do so?
And the reasons for the Father inspiring us to pray together with and seek the prayers of others, as with the reasons for so much of what He has done for humanity, have nothing to do with what He needs or wants (since He lacks nothing and is entirely sufficient unto Himself) but instead with what will be most helpful for US.
It is good for US to pray with others in their needs, it gives us a healthy sense of community and a proper appreciation of our interconnectedness as fellow members of the Body of Christ that we seek their prayers in our needs as well as praying for them in theirs. It isn’t a one-way street you know, it’s a two-way relationship that we need to have with our fellow Christians.
G
GJx86
Guest
Right, what’s forbidden is necromancy – the attempt to bring the dead into this world so that they can provide revelation about the future.“When you come into the promised land you must be very careful lest you be corrupted by the HORRIBLE CUSTOMS of the nations living there. For example, any Israeli who presents his child to be burned to death as a sacrifice to heathen gods, must be killed. No Israeli may practice BLACK MAGIC…or call on the evil spirits for aid, or be a FORTUNE TELLER, or be a SERPENT CHARMER, MEDIUM OR WIZARD, or CALL FORTH THE SPIRITS OF THE DEAD. Anyone doing these things is an OBJECT OF HORROR and DISGUST to the Lord, and it is because of the nations who do these things that the Lord your God will displace them.”
Why does God forbid this? Because He is the only true source of revelation about the future. The other nations listen merely to the prophecies of men (Deu 18:14), but the Israelites will get a prophet from God (Deu 18:15) who speaks with God’s authority (Deu 18:18-19).
The later verses make the meaning of the previous commands clear. No Ouija boards. No summoning spirits to try to tell you the future. God will raise up prophets for that. That’s it. That’s the message God’s trying to get across.
This is absolutely not a prohibition on asking the saints for prayers to God.
E
Eilish_Maura
Guest
Please re-read the post I responded to – we are not taught to go through “mom” because we are afraid of asking “dad” nor are we taught, officially by the Church or by Jesus in scripture/example, that God needs us to have THAT KIND of intercession.And yet Jesus gave us the Our Father, which is a prayer in which we petition the Father (why, when according to your logic we need not even bother approaching Him at all really, He’ll give us whatever, or not, regardless).
Very simply, Jesus commands us to love one another as He has loved us. His love included graciously acceding to the request of Mary even though, as He said (and He couldn’t have been telling an untruth) it wasn’t His time. And it certainly included petitioning the Father, ‘buttering Him up’ if you will (as if Jesus wasn’t trying to do that when He pleaded for His suffering to be taken away in Gethsemane!)
Has it never occurred to you that the desire to pray through others, to ask for their prayers, is ALSO part of God’s will for us, since He implants in so many of us the desire to do so?
And the reasons for the Father inspiring us to pray together with and seek the prayers of others, as with the reasons for so much of what He has done for humanity, have nothing to do with what He needs or wants (since He lacks nothing and is entirely sufficient unto Himself) but instead with what will be most helpful for US.
It is good for US to pray with others in their needs, it gives us a healthy sense of community and a proper appreciation of our interconnectedness as fellow members of the Body of Christ that we seek their prayers in our needs as well as praying for them in theirs. It isn’t a one-way street you know, it’s a two-way relationship that we need to have with our fellow Christians.
D
Deeda58
Guest
Deuteronomy 18:15-22 tells you that anyone who does not listen to Jesus WHOM HE WILL SEND FROM AMONG THE JEWS… it will be required of him.Go read the Old Testament. He was always giving His Chosen People another chance. To love means one has feelings.
Do you not think it’s a serious thing to – as Paul says – trample under foot the cross of Christ?
Do you think that those people who’ve rejected what Christ went through on our behalf…and died STILL SPIRITUALLY DEAD…without the LIFE OF CHRIST within them…will get a SECOND CHANCE?
We’re told…in Hebrews 2:3 “How will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?”
Those who die, neglecting the salvation, cannot be prayed for, to receive it after they die.
Hebrews 9:27 - “And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die ONCE…and then the judgment,…”
2 Corinthians 6:2 - for He says, at the acceptable time I listened to you, and on the day of salvation I helped you…behold, NOW is the ACCEPTABLE TIME…behold, NOW is the day of salvation…"
(don’t wait until it’s too late…don’t neglect such a great salvation. Your friends…or a mass…can’t pray you through!
Hebrews 10:29 - “…How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God and has REGARDED AS UNCLEAN THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT by which he was sanctified, and has INSULTED THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?”
Jesus shed His blood…was beaten as no man…punched… stabbed with a spear…nailed to a bloody cross…and in HIM was NO SIN. He did it FOR US…
And you think that those who NEGLECT SUCH A GREAT SALVATION will be able to soften God up through prayer for that person?
You’ve missed the meaning of SALVATION…we get saved from God’s wrath BEFORE we leave this earth…not afterward.
Again…read the parable of Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham… asking him to DIP HIS FINGER IN WATER TO COOL HIS TONGUE. He wanted to go back to earth to WARN HIS BROTHERS that it was all true…
Linda
Arizona
D
Deeda58
Guest
Rolltide…
Maybe that’s why Jesus had to give that warning at the end of Revelation…NOT TO ADD TO HIS WORD…because He knew people would do it…and, sure enough…they did.
How about the part where they ask Jesus how to pray. What does He say? He says not to be like the HEATHEN WHO REPEAT PRAYERS OVER AND OVER…but pray on the order of this…then He says “Our Father…which art in Heaven.” He didn’t say to REPEAT WHAT HE SAID OVER AND OVER…He just got through saying NOT TO REPEAT PRAYERS OVER AND OVER AS THE HEATHEN DO…lol This isn’t rocket science! lol
So what happens? We’ve got people repeating prayers over and over…didn’t Jesus just call people who do that “heathen?”
And then He says NOT TO ADD TO HIS WORD…at the end of Revelation. Is that so hard? Why is this so hard? Did Jesus stutter? He said, “that anyone who adds to it is in deep doo doo.” (paraphrase)…
The ONLY BOOKS that were said to be INSPIRED were those that were DIRECTLY WRITTEN BY AN APOSTLE OR AN EMANUENSUS (scribe) of an Apostle (i.e., Luke, Mark…) they were with Paul on his missionary journeys.
and the word is not PRA-TEST-TANT…it’s PRO- TEST-TANT… because Martin Luther and others began to PROTEST the teachings of the Catholic church. It’s no wonder the Pope no longer wishes to use that word…people would begin to ask, “what are they protesting?”
Let’s call it what it is…the church broke in two…some said “you’ve fallen away to teachings that are not in scripture…and others said they disagreed.”
There is nothing new under the sun…as you can see from these threads.
A happy protestor,
Linda in Arizona
Resting in Christ’s work and not my own.
Maybe that’s why Jesus had to give that warning at the end of Revelation…NOT TO ADD TO HIS WORD…because He knew people would do it…and, sure enough…they did.
How about the part where they ask Jesus how to pray. What does He say? He says not to be like the HEATHEN WHO REPEAT PRAYERS OVER AND OVER…but pray on the order of this…then He says “Our Father…which art in Heaven.” He didn’t say to REPEAT WHAT HE SAID OVER AND OVER…He just got through saying NOT TO REPEAT PRAYERS OVER AND OVER AS THE HEATHEN DO…lol This isn’t rocket science! lol
So what happens? We’ve got people repeating prayers over and over…didn’t Jesus just call people who do that “heathen?”
And then He says NOT TO ADD TO HIS WORD…at the end of Revelation. Is that so hard? Why is this so hard? Did Jesus stutter? He said, “that anyone who adds to it is in deep doo doo.” (paraphrase)…
The ONLY BOOKS that were said to be INSPIRED were those that were DIRECTLY WRITTEN BY AN APOSTLE OR AN EMANUENSUS (scribe) of an Apostle (i.e., Luke, Mark…) they were with Paul on his missionary journeys.
and the word is not PRA-TEST-TANT…it’s PRO- TEST-TANT… because Martin Luther and others began to PROTEST the teachings of the Catholic church. It’s no wonder the Pope no longer wishes to use that word…people would begin to ask, “what are they protesting?”
Let’s call it what it is…the church broke in two…some said “you’ve fallen away to teachings that are not in scripture…and others said they disagreed.”
There is nothing new under the sun…as you can see from these threads.
A happy protestor,
Linda in Arizona
Resting in Christ’s work and not my own.
D
dmelosi
Guest
One thing at a time…nowhere does the Catholic faith teach that the status of salvation can be changed once we leave this earth. Why would you try to say it does?Do you think that those people who’ve rejected what Christ went through on our behalf…and died STILL SPIRITUALLY DEAD…without the LIFE OF CHRIST within them…will get a SECOND CHANCE?
We’re told…in Hebrews 2:3 “How will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?”
Those who die, neglecting the salvation, cannot be prayed for, to receive it after they die.
(don’t wait until it’s too late…don’t neglect such a great salvation. Your friends…or a mass…can’t pray you through!
You’ve missed the meaning of SALVATION…we get saved from God’s wrath BEFORE we leave this earth…not afterward.
Linda
Arizona
D
Deeda58
Guest
Rolltide…
Let’s keep scripture in context…you said
James 5:16 - James instructs us to confess our sins to one another and pray for one another so that we may be healed.
You haven’t read the chapter in context…these believers were backbiting one another…paul says the same thing in Corinthians. The context is…if you’ve hurt your brother…go to him and confess it…and you will both be healed.
Paul says the same…rather than us taking one another to court.
It never says to CONFESS TO ANOTHER MAN TO BE FORGIVEN OF YOUR SINS…it’s to confess when you’ve harmed one another. Confess your sin…what you did to that person to upset them.
Read that chapter in context…
Linda
Arizona
Let’s keep scripture in context…you said
James 5:16 - James instructs us to confess our sins to one another and pray for one another so that we may be healed.
You haven’t read the chapter in context…these believers were backbiting one another…paul says the same thing in Corinthians. The context is…if you’ve hurt your brother…go to him and confess it…and you will both be healed.
Paul says the same…rather than us taking one another to court.
It never says to CONFESS TO ANOTHER MAN TO BE FORGIVEN OF YOUR SINS…it’s to confess when you’ve harmed one another. Confess your sin…what you did to that person to upset them.
Read that chapter in context…
Linda
Arizona
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Deeda, welcome to the forums.
Just to give you some friendly information:
When we are talking on a specific topic (the thread title) we talk on that topic. If somebody brings up a separate topic, we open a ‘separate’ thread. You can just follow the steps, when you go to ‘home’ and look up ‘new threads’ on how to do this. You can also say in your first post on the thread that it started from a question brought about by THIS thread.
Otherwise, a thread becomes what we call ‘hijacked’–meaning, instead of discussing the topic–specifically here, on how and why to pray to Mary, which is on a Catholic apologetics forum so it discusses this Catholic Christian practice.
If you or any other wish to discuss the topic of whether a Christian can ‘pray’ to anybody, a good place to put it is on the NON CHRISTIAN RELIGIOUS forum, starting a new thread, as I said above.
Thank you.
Just to give you some friendly information:
When we are talking on a specific topic (the thread title) we talk on that topic. If somebody brings up a separate topic, we open a ‘separate’ thread. You can just follow the steps, when you go to ‘home’ and look up ‘new threads’ on how to do this. You can also say in your first post on the thread that it started from a question brought about by THIS thread.
Otherwise, a thread becomes what we call ‘hijacked’–meaning, instead of discussing the topic–specifically here, on how and why to pray to Mary, which is on a Catholic apologetics forum so it discusses this Catholic Christian practice.
If you or any other wish to discuss the topic of whether a Christian can ‘pray’ to anybody, a good place to put it is on the NON CHRISTIAN RELIGIOUS forum, starting a new thread, as I said above.
Thank you.
D
Deeda58
Guest
Because when you pay for a MASS for a person it is to pray for that person’s soul. I’m a former Catholic. They even had me pray one whole morning in my Catholic School for my uncle who had died years before…to pray him OUT OF HADES INTO HEAVEN.
I know what I’m talking about. I just had a woman pay for a MASS for my Mother’s soul last year, and she sent my Dad the prayer card calling for mercy on his soul…to Mother Mary.
As if that mass…or their prayers could change a thing about her whereabouts.
Thank God she was already born again…so that prayer card didn’t decide her location. I realize that her friend MEANT WELL…and did it out of LOVE for my Mom…but she is MISGUIDED BY HER LEADERS…very sad to say.
Linda
Arizona
I know what I’m talking about. I just had a woman pay for a MASS for my Mother’s soul last year, and she sent my Dad the prayer card calling for mercy on his soul…to Mother Mary.
As if that mass…or their prayers could change a thing about her whereabouts.
Thank God she was already born again…so that prayer card didn’t decide her location. I realize that her friend MEANT WELL…and did it out of LOVE for my Mom…but she is MISGUIDED BY HER LEADERS…very sad to say.
Linda
Arizona
D
Deeda58
Guest
Tantum…thank you for your advice.
I spoke on praying to others because it’s what was being discussed at the beginning of this thread…please go to the beginning post. The poster mentioned NOT ONLY MARY, BUT OTHERS…as well.
I think I’m doing just fine…but, thank you very much for your concern. I DID open up a few other new threads in case you’d like to respond to them…threads that deal with OTHER MATTERS… such as the virginity of Mary…and chanting with beads over and over as the muslims do…to someone who has not risen from the dead yet…bodily I mean…not spiritually.
Feel free to chime in…the more the merrier!
Linda
Arizona
I spoke on praying to others because it’s what was being discussed at the beginning of this thread…please go to the beginning post. The poster mentioned NOT ONLY MARY, BUT OTHERS…as well.
I think I’m doing just fine…but, thank you very much for your concern. I DID open up a few other new threads in case you’d like to respond to them…threads that deal with OTHER MATTERS… such as the virginity of Mary…and chanting with beads over and over as the muslims do…to someone who has not risen from the dead yet…bodily I mean…not spiritually.
Feel free to chime in…the more the merrier!
Linda
Arizona
- Status
- Not open for further replies.