How and why to pray through Mary?

[LilyM]

Because when you pay for a MASS for a person it is to pray for that person’s soul. I’m a former Catholic. They even had me pray one whole morning in my Catholic School for my uncle who had died years before…to pray him OUT OF HADES INTO HEAVEN.

I know what I’m talking about. I just had a woman pay for a MASS for my Mother’s soul last year, and she sent my Dad the prayer card calling for mercy on his soul…to Mother Mary.

As if that mass…or their prayers could change a thing about her whereabouts.

Thank God she was already born again…so that prayer card didn’t decide her location. I realize that her friend MEANT WELL…and did it out of LOVE for my Mom…but she is MISGUIDED BY HER LEADERS…very sad to say.

Linda
Arizona

Sorry, if anyone mentioned Hades to you then they were probably totally mistaken and teaching contrary to the Catholic faith, as were you if you assumed Hades means Hell of the damned.

We believe in purgatory, and in doing good for the souls there, not in praying souls out of Hell. It stands to reason, since nothing imperfect can enter heaven and most if not every human is imperfect, but plenty of humans still enter heaven, that there is a process of purification (purgatory) which most souls must go through, as St Paul knew when he spoke of our works being tested by fire. He speaks of the fire testing the house we build with our works, so clearly he is referring to the testing occuring AFTER one is dead and their life’s work is complete.

And as for calling upon Mary for mercy - she is the vehicle for Christ’s mercy, as for all His other gifts, just as she was the vehicle for His incarnation, not to mention His miracle at Cana, since it occured through her intercession. Doesn’t mean she is solely or mainly responsible for the incarnation, nor that she performed the miracle of Cana, nor that the mercy the prayer speaks of is necessarily her own.

 

[Deeda58]

Just to kind of see if you’d like to respond to my new thread… w/o hijacking this one…I’ll just whet your appetite…so to speak…I said that while I believe Mary was a virgin…and the most blessed among women (being used of God to enter the world), I do not believe she was a virgin after Jesus was born, and she bore Joseph children, since the scripture states that Jesus had brothers and sister’s… (not in the sense of a brother in Christ)…and even the writers who do the concordances agree that James who wrote the book of James, and Jude, were both half brothers of Jesus.

Hope it didn’t hurt this link by my giving just a short synopsis of a new thread about Mary’s virginity following Jesus’ birth.

Thank you for being patient with me.

Linda
Arizona

 

[Deeda58]

Hi Lily M…

You said:
We believe in purgatory, and in doing good for the souls there, not in praying souls out of Hell. It stands to reason, since nothing imperfect can enter heaven and most if not every human is imperfect, but plenty of humans still enter heaven, that there is a process of purification (purgatory) which most souls must go through, as St Paul knew when he spoke of our works being tested by fire. He speaks of the fire testing the house we build with our works, so clearly he is referring to the testing occuring AFTER one is dead and their life’s work is complete.

---

Hmmm…well then, you won’t believe Paul when he said, “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord!” 2 Corinthians 5:6-8.

Or that Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth and led captives free after his resurrection…Ephesians 4:8-10

After emptying it out…in the NEW COVENANT…now we are ABSENT FROM THE BODY AND PRESENT IMMEDIATELY WITH THE LORD…

Linda
Arizona

Verses are right there for the looking up. Nothing written from my own beliefs or anyone else’s… we all have bibles…let’s open them up…read in context…

 

[Deeda58]

I may have said they called it Hades…but it was over 30 years ago… they may have called it Purgatory. all I know is that I had to pray my dearly departed uncle OUT OF IT…and they had me ENVISION him walking from one to the other.

Btw…my friends who are still Catholics still do this. Ugh!

Linda
Arizona

 

[Rolltide]

Rolltide…

Maybe that’s why Jesus had to give that warning at the end of Revelation…NOT TO ADD TO HIS WORD…because He knew people would do it…and, sure enough…they did.

The ONLY BOOKS that were said to be INSPIRED were those that were DIRECTLY WRITTEN BY AN APOSTLE OR AN EMANUENSUS (scribe) of an Apostle (i.e., Luke, Mark…) they were with Paul on his missionary journeys.

This passage is referring to the Book of Revelations only, since the Bible as a compilation did not exist at the time it was written. In fact, the Bible did not exist as a compilation until almost 400 AD.

Your comment could, however, attest to how incredibly serious it was when the reformers removed seven legitimate books from the Bible in the 1500s. You do know that Luther almost removed the Book of Revelation from scripture as well, right?

and the word is not PRA-TEST-TANT…it’s PRO- TEST-TANT… because Martin Luther and others began to PROTEST the teachings of the Catholic church.

Yes, you’re correct. I don’t think I contested that anywhere. I make sure all of my students know that when I teach the history of the Protestant Reformation in my classes…

It’s no wonder the Pope no longer wishes to use that word…people would begin to ask, “what are they protesting?”

Don’t worry, the term isn’t going anywhere, and I don’t believe that the pope has banned the word or anything. The new term “ecclesiastical communities” is simply more polite in tone and demonstrates that we still have much in common, while emphasizing that the Catholic Church doesn’t consider them to be true “churches” since they lack the two fundamental things necessary: Apostolic succession and valid sacraments. This is why the Orthodox ARE properly termed a church, since they share virtually all of our theology, and they fulfill those two requirements. I should also mention that the new terms arose out of the “protests” of non-Catholic Christians, who were offended by the term “Protestant”!

 

[dmelosi]

Because when you pay for a MASS for a person it is to pray for that person’s soul. I’m a former Catholic. They even had me pray one whole morning in my Catholic School for my uncle who had died years before…to pray him OUT OF HADES INTO HEAVEN.

I know what I’m talking about. I just had a woman pay for a MASS for my Mother’s soul last year, and she sent my Dad the prayer card calling for mercy on his soul…to Mother Mary.

As if that mass…or their prayers could change a thing about her whereabouts.

Thank God she was already born again…so that prayer card didn’t decide her location. I realize that her friend MEANT WELL…and did it out of LOVE for my Mom…but she is MISGUIDED BY HER LEADERS…very sad to say.

Linda
Arizona

Well I am sorry that you were such a misguided Catholic. To say that Catholics teach that you can pray a person from hell to heaven is a blatant lie. Catholics most certainly do NOT teach that. Please stop spreading these lies.

 

[LilyM]

Verses are right there for the looking up. Nothing written from my own beliefs or anyone else’s… we all have bibles…let’s open them up…read in context…

Read in YOUR context you mean … and yes, according to your beliefs. THe Bible isn’t a blank slate, nor is anything you write anything other than your interpretation of it. Backed by all of your lifetime’s scholarship … as opposed to the teaching of the Catholic Church which not only produced and set the canon of the Bible but has studied it intensively, with all of its collective might, every day or the 1900-odd years since it was written? You can’t even seriously think there’s any contest there as to which interpretation is more likely to be accurate.

Yes, you have the Catholic Church to thank even for the idea that inspired NT books had to be written by the Apostles or those who knew them. That criterion certainly isn’t written anywhere in the Bible itself! Christians didn’t agree on that much even prior to the Church teaching so, nor would you believe it except that you acknowledge (albeit unconsciously) that the Church had the authority to teach so.

 

[Jonson7]

i think its a really stupid idea to pray to the saints or Mary they are just people nothing more nothing less. Pray only to God are lord in heaven because he is the only one that will answer anything for you.

 

[Rolltide]

i think its a really stupid idea to pray to the saints or Mary they are just people nothing more nothing less. Pray only to God are lord in heaven because he is the only one that will answer anything for you.

Hypothetical situation. Your grandmother is in the hospital. It’s Sunday, and you’ve gone to church. According to what you’re saying, it would be a stupid idea to ask the congregation to pray for my grandmother, as they are just people, nothing more, nothing less. Why would I possibly pray to the people in the congregation? I should pray directly to God.

For Catholics, whether you intend it or not, this is indeed what you’re saying. If you look closely at Catholic prayers, we are asking the angels, saints, and Mary to pray FOR us and WITH us. We do not pray TO them (except in the Shakespearian sense of “asking” them, “pray tell”). If we believe that people really do have eternal life in heaven, why would we not ask for their prayers? They haven’t ceased to exist.

 

[jjformica]

God always had plans for our salvation and always knew how much had to be tolerated/forgiven along the way to achieve his plan.

God is not some strict father who you cannot go to directly, who needs someone to ‘soften’ him up before he hears us.

My father wasn’t some strict father who I could not go to directly, either, but whenever my mother asked for a favor on my behalf, he did not hesitate. He figured if my mother was on my side, then my request had merit.

Also, when the Blessed Mother appeared to Sr. Agnes, she said that man needed to repent and that she couldn’t hold off the Father’s anger much longer. Read about it - Our Lady of Akita - and it has been authenticated by the Catholic Church. Sounds to me like our Blessed Mother is trying to soften Him up. I think we should be thankful for that

 

[LilyM]

i think its a really stupid idea to pray to the saints or Mary they are just people nothing more nothing less. Pray only to God are lord in heaven because he is the only one that will answer anything for you.

First of all make sure you understand the word ‘pray’ correctly, in all its senses.

If you ask another person for anything at all, then you are praying to that person.

Exhibit A - Hamlet’s Act I scene 2. Hamlet’s mother Gertrude says to him ‘I pray thee, stay with us; go not to Wittenberg.’ She’s praying to him.

Exhibit B - Supreme Court of the USA. Documents initiating proceedings in the Supreme Court will frequently have a section entitled ‘Prayer for Relief’ in which the parties will ‘pray’ the court to do something (grant an injunction, award compensation or what have you).

So when you say ‘Mom/Pastor/whoever, I’d like you to pray for me …’ you are actually praying TO your Mom, your pastor or whoever in asking them to do something for you. The confusion lies in the fact that you are asking them to in their turn ask something - in this case ask something of (pray to) God.

Now having doubts as to those who are deceased is one thing, but in terms of ‘praying to’ (asking prayers of) the LIVING (who are, after all, ALSO merely humans) - James says ‘the prayers of a righteous man avail much’, so you’d be stupid not to, and your idea that other ‘mere’ humans can’t benefit you with their prayers is flat out unbiblical.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Also, when the Blessed Mother appeared to Sr. Agnes, she said that man needed to repent and that she couldn’t hold off the Father’s anger much longer. Read about it - Our Lady of Akita - and it has been authenticated by the Catholic Church. Sounds to me like our Blessed Mother is trying to soften Him up. I think we should be thankful for that

You are aware that no one is bound to believe private revelation and it definitely does not amount to official Church teaching right?

 

[jjformica]

You are aware that no one is bound to believe private revelation and it definitely does not amount to official Church teaching right?

Yes. I do understand that no one is bound to believe private revelation. But how could I resist pointing out the message of Akita which specifically mentions the “softening of the Father”?? Consider it an “FYI” that according to those private revelations, she is, in fact, softening the heart of God for us.

If you are one that does not choose to believe in private revelations, such as Akita and Fatima, then disregard my previous post. Hopefully, it has convinced SOMEONE that it’s beneficial to pray for Mary’s intercession!

On a last note (and I DO mean last note…I’m getting exhausted reading all these posts), time will tell.

 

[peary]

God always had plans for our salvation and always knew how much had to be tolerated/forgiven along the way to achieve his plan.

God is not some strict father who you cannot go to directly, who needs someone to ‘soften’ him up before he hears us.

**And here I was under the impression that you thought God was permissive. Silly me…:bounce: **

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Yes. I do understand that no one is bound to believe private revelation. But how could I resist pointing out the message of Akita which specifically mentions the “softening of the Father”?? Consider it an “FYI” that according to those private revelations, she is, in fact, softening the heart of God for us.

If you are one that does not choose to believe in private revelations, such as Akita and Fatima, then disregard my previous post. Hopefully, it has convinced SOMEONE that it’s beneficial to pray for Mary’s intercession!

If she is ‘softening the heart of God’ for us then some of what Jesus taught us about the Father is a lie and I do not accept that possibility.

BTW – NO ONE has said that intercessory prayer is not beneficial but if one is not drawn to asking Mary (or any of the saints) for their intercession it is right to let that person know it is ok and they are no consequences for not doing so.

 

[paramedicgirl]

i think its a really stupid idea to pray to the saints or Mary they are just people nothing more nothing less. Pray only to God are lord in heaven because he is the only one that will answer anything for you.

Question - do you ever ask your friends, family or church to pray for you? When Catholics seek the prayers of the saints, it is the same thing - we are seeking their intercession just as you are seeking the intercession of your community. The only difference is, the saints are already in heaven and can more easily be heard by God. They can be powerful intercessors.

Just as Jesus is the mediator between God and men, so is Mary the mediator between men and Jesus. Mary was established as the channel of grace when she said yes to God at the Incarnation. If you ask Jesus (with faith) to help you understand the doctrine of His Blessed Mother, it will be granted to you.

 

[paramedicgirl]

If she is ‘softening the heart of God’ for us then some of what Jesus taught us about the Father is a lie and I do not accept that possibility.

BTW – NO ONE has said that intercessory prayer is not beneficial but if one is not drawn to asking Mary (or any of the saints) for their intercession it is right to let that person know it is ok and they are no consequences for not doing so.

Did you know that, according to the saints, devotion to Mary is a sign of predestination? Mary leads us to Jesus, and every Hail Mary you say (pray for us now and at the hour of our death) goes with you to your judgment.

That can be an awful lot of heavenly help!

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Did you know that, according to the saints, devotion to Mary is a sign of predestination? Mary leads us to Jesus, and every Hail Mary you say (pray for us now and at the hour of our death) goes with you to your judgment.

That can be an awful lot of heavenly help!

Saints say many many things.

How many of these things are also Church doctrine or dogma?

Since when is the Church officially into accepting predestination?

Along similiar lines: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=2486&highlight=predestination

 

[DebChris]

ROLLTIDE SAID THE FOLLOWING:

"See if the following passage sounds familiar:

“And I ask blessed Mary, ever Virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.”

---

I’ve not seen that PASSAGE in the HOLY BIBLE…the WORD OF GOD…SCRIPTURE…can you give me the book and verse?

Thanks.

Linda
Arizona

These words come from the Confiteor, a prayer of repentence that is part of the Mass.

 

[CradleCath]

The Lord Jesus teaches His us to pray to the Father, this is the “point” I’m making. So why would the Lord Jesus mention anything about praying to the Father through Mary when He teaches us to pray to the Father. The Lord Jesus didn’t teach us to pray to the Father through a saint or Mary, He taught us to pray to the Father.

But, the Catholic Church did. Catholics view the Virgin Mary as the most powerful intercessor of all the saints. We believe that she sits at her Son’s right hand in heaven and from there makes intercession for her other children One can find evidence of the above in Luke 22, Acts 7. John 19. Also in Hebrews & Revelation.

Yes I’m praying to God for people on this earth. The Bible doesn’t teach Christians to ask people who have departed from this earth to help them.