How Are "SDAs" Not In Harmony With The Apostles?

[happilycatholic]

Well; if you look at the OP I was asking others to give their opinions. I will also offer some as time permits, and when I feel there is something I have learned enough of to actually start discussing. Of course, I am sure you will offer some inspired characterization of me for that - but my only question to that would be “inspired by what?”

Inspired characterization? Huh?

I just wondered where you were, much like everyone else here.

 

[happilycatholic]

why did you ask a rhetorical question rather than answer the two asked by happli ???

In our case it must be GOD! Now answer his two quetions ~Please/COLOR]

Cause he’s never going to.

 

[SDA2RC]

Protestant,
This has probably already been covered in one of the posts, but I think the most pronounced deviation that the Adventist Church has from the Apostles is the lack of Apostolic Succession and Ordination.

We see in scripture that the Apostles ordained other Apostles (which we now call bishops) and so on, finding good men in the churches and giving them the gift that they had, that of ordination. One can only give something that one legitimately has…

Adventism now teaches that only ordained SDA Ministers, elders, etc. can ordain other SDA Ministers, elders, etc. however, the question remains where did their authority to ordain come from in the first place.

It cannot be traced back to the apostles, therefore it is invalid. This does not deny the priesthood of believers, but it does bring to mind Mark, where Christ explains that there are those who will do things in His name, but Christ does not know them.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Protestant,
This has probably already been covered in one of the posts, but I think the most pronounced deviation that the Adventist Church has from the Apostles is the lack of Apostolic Succession and Ordination.

**
I think it is their not following Jesus’ commandments but if yoiu think apostolic succession is more important that salvation who am I to argue? SK

GOD BLESS
SK **.

 

[adelore]

I just thought I’d share my own experience with the SDA’s. For over a year I bought and studied the writings of Ellen White. It is very True that the SDA’s see and call Ellen White a Phrophet. Yes I had even attended their church.

Several times over I was told to read Ellen Whites books. They see her writings as all correct and her writings and thoughts are indeed taught in the Church and Sabbath School still to this day.

It amazes me that they focus so much on the Sabbath Commandment, (it seems to be the Biggest topic in the Church and Writings) and yet a lot of the other Commandments fall to the way side. Such as aboration and divorce…just to name a few.

Although I will admit that the SDA’s are a friendly group of people and I was welcomed very warmly and I do believe they are “Seperated Brothers and Sisters” I would encourage/challange them to do some “home work” on their own about “Christian Church History” (and I’m talking about the very first Chirstians, not the SDAs or any other church…just the First Church History starting from Jesus.) and how the “Bible” came to be. Starting with Jesus, the Gospels, what did Jesus teach and all that he said. I truely believe if more SDAs (and other Religions as well) would do this a whole new world would open up to them.

Seek and you shall find.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

We can only hope and pray that, in His inimitable and inscrutable style, the Lord has been speaking to 101. Planting seeds of doubt in a heretical sect that achieves unity and cohesiveness through the teaching of anger toward the one true Church.

Perhaps he can see that, as the Apostles argued, quarreled, had egos and made mistakes, so too with the Church which was established upon them. For its members also have argued and made, in its 1,975 year history, some colossal mistakes in judgment. But not one bit of all this reflects on the truth that she teaches.

As much as he loves Christ, and his willingness to pray for us is evidence of that, he might just have a hunger for more. More truth. More history. More Sacraments. Christ in the flesh. Real food. Real drink. Lord, hear our prayer. Amen!

**
Po18, I have a new hero:

Church is not Wal-Mart

[NB. Permission to repost/copy with proper attribution is given.]

1. The Roman Catholic Church isn’t WalMart or Burger King; it’s the Body of Christ.

2). Catholic priests, nuns, sisters/brothers and laity aren’t
employees; we are members of the Body of Christ.

3). The doctrine and dogma of the Catholic Church are not consumer products that the Church’s employees sell to those who want them; Catholic doctrine and dogma express the unchanging truth of the faith.

4). Life in a Catholic parish is not a trip to Disney Land or Target or McDonald’s where your consumer needs and whims are catered to by the whimpering clergy and lay staff; parish life is the life of Christ for the local Catholic family.

5). You do not come into the Catholic Church b/c you like the building better than you like the Methodist chapel; or because the priest at the Catholic parish is cuter than the Baptist preacher; or because you heard that the homilies are shorter at St. Bubba’s by the Lake than they are at the Unitarian Church. You come into the Catholic Church because you believe that the Catholic faith is the truth of the gospel taught by Christ himself and given to his apostles.

6). Leaving the Catholic Church because a priest was mean to you, or because sister whacked you with a ruler, or because the church secretary looked at you funny is as stupid as giving up on the truths of math because you hate your high school algebra teacher. Why would anyone let a crazy priest or a cranky nun or anyone else for the matter drive you out of the faith you believe is true? My only conclusion: you never thought it was true to begin with; or, you have a favorite sin the Church teaches against and crazy priests and cranky nuns is as good an excuse as any to leave and pursue your sin all the while feeling justified because Father and/or Sister are such jerks.

7). Anyone who comes in the Catholic Church thinking that they will find clouds of angels at Mass dressed as parishioners; hordes of perfect saints kneeling for communion; seminaries packed with angelic young men burning to be priests; a parish hall stacked to the ceiling with morally pure people eager to serve; and a priest without flaw or blemish, well, you’re cracked and you probably need to go back and try again. Telling Catholics that they aren’t perfect makes as much sense as telling fish they’re wet. We know already. Move on.

8). Of the hundreds of priests and religious I know, I know two who could count as saints right now. The rest of us are deeply flawed, impure, struggling creatures who know all too well that we fail utterly to meet the basic standards of holiness. For that matter: so do you. Get in line.

9). The Catholic Church owes no one a revision of her doctrine or dogma. She didn’t change to save most of Europe from becoming Protestant, why would you imagine that she would change just to get you in one of her parishes?

10). If you want to become Catholic, do it. But do it because you think the Church teaches the true faith. If a cranky priest on a blogsite is enough to keep you from embracing the truth of the faith, then two things are painfully clear:

1. you do not believe the Church teaches the faith;
2. and you care more about expresssing your hurt consumer feelings than you do for your immortal soul.

Fr. Philip, OP**

 

[po18guy]

**
Po18, I have a new hero:

Church is not Wal-Mart **

[NB. Permission to repost/copy with proper attribution is given.]

1. The Roman Catholic Church isn’t WalMart or Burger King; it’s the Body of Christ.

2). Catholic priests, nuns, sisters/brothers and laity aren’t
employees; we are members of the Body of Christ.

3). The doctrine and dogma of the Catholic Church are not consumer products that the Church’s employees sell to those who want them; Catholic doctrine and dogma express the unchanging truth of the faith.

4). Life in a Catholic parish is not a trip to Disney Land or Target or McDonald’s where your consumer needs and whims are catered to by the whimpering clergy and lay staff; parish life is the life of Christ for the local Catholic family.

5). You do not come into the Catholic Church b/c you like the building better than you like the Methodist chapel; or because the priest at the Catholic parish is cuter than the Baptist preacher; or because you heard that the homilies are shorter at St. Bubba’s by the Lake than they are at the Unitarian Church. You come into the Catholic Church because you believe that the Catholic faith is the truth of the gospel taught by Christ himself and given to his apostles.

6). Leaving the Catholic Church because a priest was mean to you, or because sister whacked you with a ruler, or because the church secretary looked at you funny is as stupid as giving up on the truths of math because you hate your high school algebra teacher. Why would anyone let a crazy priest or a cranky nun or anyone else for the matter drive you out of the faith you believe is true? My only conclusion: you never thought it was true to begin with; or, you have a favorite sin the Church teaches against and crazy priests and cranky nuns is as good an excuse as any to leave and pursue your sin all the while feeling justified because Father and/or Sister are such jerks.

7). Anyone who comes in the Catholic Church thinking that they will find clouds of angels at Mass dressed as parishioners; hordes of perfect saints kneeling for communion; seminaries packed with angelic young men burning to be priests; a parish hall stacked to the ceiling with morally pure people eager to serve; and a priest without flaw or blemish, well, you’re cracked and you probably need to go back and try again. Telling Catholics that they aren’t perfect makes as much sense as telling fish they’re wet. We know already. Move on.

8). Of the hundreds of priests and religious I know, I know two who could count as saints right now. The rest of us are deeply flawed, impure, struggling creatures who know all too well that we fail utterly to meet the basic standards of holiness. For that matter: so do you. Get in line.

9). The Catholic Church owes no one a revision of her doctrine or dogma. She didn’t change to save most of Europe from becoming Protestant, why would you imagine that she would change just to get you in one of her parishes?

10). If you want to become Catholic, do it. But do it because you think the Church teaches the true faith. If a cranky priest on a blogsite is enough to keep you from embracing the truth of the faith, then two things are painfully clear:

1. you do not believe the Church teaches the faith;
2. and you care more about expresssing your hurt consumer feelings than you do for your immortal soul.

Fr. Philip, OP

Amen! Amen! Amen! It should be framed on a wall of the Narthex of every American parish! Here’s the link:

hancaquam.blogspot.com/2008/10/church-is-not-wal-mart.html

 

[Marsha_Adams]

While this may seem slightly off topic (apologies to all), this is for Protestant 101 who earlier on this thread felt that our humor was bigotted. Hopefully Protestant 101 will see that we Catholics practice equal opportunity amusement even at our own expense.

There were five country churches in a small Texas town:

**Presbyterian ****Baptist **
****Methodist Catholic
and the Jewish Synagogue.

Each church and Synagogue was overrun with pesky squirrels.

One day, the Presbyterian church called a meeting to decide what to do about the squirrels. After much prayer and consideration they determined that the squirrels were predestined to be there and they shouldn’t interfere with God’s divine will.

In the Baptist church the squirrels had taken up habitation in the baptistery. The deacons met and decided to put a cover on the baptistery and drown the squirrels in it. The squirrels somehow escaped and there were twice as many there the next week.

The Methodist church got together and decided that they were not in a position to harm any of God’s creation. So, they humanely trapped the squirrels and set them free a few miles outside of town. Three days later, the squirrels were back.

The Catholic church came up with the best and most effective solution. They baptized the squirrels and registered them as members of the church. Now they only see them on Christmas, Ash Wednesday, Palm Sunday and Easter.

Not much was heard about the Jewish Synagogue, but they took one squirrel and had a short service with him called a Bris (circumcision) and they havent’t seen a squirrel on the property since.

 

[djconklin]

They see her writings as all correct

No they don’t. In fact, she didn’t even teach that!

"Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don’t you never [sic] quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and you make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don’t you give a rap any more what ‘Sister White Said’ —‘Sister White said this,’ and ‘Sister White said that,’ and ‘Sister White said the other thing’. But say, ‘Thus saith the Lord God of Israel.’ Spalding and Magan Collection

So, the people you dealt with have proven that they don’t even read and understand what she has written.

You have to remember that some people like to call themselves SDA even when they aren’t. Or, they may be some off-shoot.

 

[po18guy]

No they don’t. In fact, she didn’t even teach that!

"Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don’t you never [sic] quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and you make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don’t you give a rap any more what ‘Sister White Said’ —‘Sister White said this,’ and ‘Sister White said that,’ and ‘Sister White said the other thing’. But say, ‘Thus saith the Lord God of Israel.’ Spalding and Magan Collection

So, the people you dealt with have proven that they don’t even read and understand what she has written.

You have to remember that some people like to call themselves SDA even when they aren’t. Or, they may be some off-shoot.

I have no idea whose quote that is, but it does not reflect SDA teaching at all in my area. Their library is packed with her books, and they strictly follow her dietary teachings.

But, all that aside, where is the Apostolic or biblical teaching that Jesus is Michael the Archangel? Not there. That is the problem. This teaching makes Jesus an angelic creation of God, therefore not divine. This is not supported either by scripture, the writings of the early church fathers, the practice of the church, Luther’s teachings, Zwingli’s or Calvins’ teachings. So, where did it come from? White.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

No they don’t. In fact, she didn’t even teach that!

"Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don’t you never [sic] quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and you make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don’t you give a rap any more what ‘Sister White Said’ —‘Sister White said this,’ and ‘Sister White said that,’ and ‘Sister White said the other thing’. But say, ‘Thus saith the Lord God of Israel.’ Spalding and Magan Collection

So, the people you dealt with have proven that they don’t even read and understand what she has written.

You have to remember that some people like to call themselves SDA even when they aren’t. Or, they may be some off-shoot.

DJ:

In every SDA church I attended in 31 years, "Ellen White writes that . . . " was the final answer to every question.

 

[djconklin]

I have no idea whose quote that is,

It was Ellen G. White.

but it does not reflect SDA teaching at all in my area.

So when they claim to “follow” someo9ne and you’ve got evidence that they aren’t what does that tell you?

Their library is packed with her books,

I have 5 bookcases full of books, so what? They were installing new doors on the apartments yesterday and one guy saw all my books and said “Someone likes to read!” You bethca!

and they strictly follow her dietary teachings.

I’ve yet to meet anyone who does. Close maybe, but not "strictly–for one, she didn’t even lay out “strict” guidelines, so how could they?

This teaching makes Jesus an angelic creation of God, therefore not divine.

Does not follow from saying that Jesus was Michael the archangel. Read Dan. 10:21 and see what you think.

So, where did it come from? White.

Really, where?

Ellen G. White was a devotional writer, not a systematic theologian. She is not to be used for theology, period.

 

[djconklin]

DJ:

In every SDA church I attended in 31 years, "Ellen White writes that . . . " was the final answer to every question.

Then go right back there and give them the EGW quote in the previous post. They obviously don’t know her as well as they claim.

In the church I used to go to, one elder noted that most SDA’s don’t read EGW because they are afraid of what they’ll find–plain counsel against their beloved sinful habits.

OTOH, how many times does one need to hear advice, counsel, etc. against something before you’ve heard enough to know not to do it, or whatever? It may be that for them once was enough.

 

[djconklin]

From another forum:

“Some trinitarian sites claim that no one ever thought that Jesus is Michael until Charles Taze Russell {Note EGW!] presented his teaching on such. This, however, can be shown not to be true, as even many trinitarians have claimed that Jesus is Michael the Archangel:”

“Michael may mean an angel; but I embrace the opinion of those who refer this (Michael) to the person of Christ, because it suits the subject best to represent him as standing forward for the defense of his elect people.” - John Calvin, Commentaries on the Book of the Prophet Daniel, trans. T. Myers (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1979), vol. 2 p. 369.

“The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the pre-incarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the ‘child’ and the archangel in Rev 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in D[a]n[ie]l .” – John A. Lees, The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, 1930, Vol. 3, page 2048

"There seems good reason for regarding Michael as the Messiah. Such was the opinion of the best among the ancient Jews… With this all the Bible representations of Michael agree. He appears as the Great Prince who standeth for Israel (Dan. xii. I), and he is called “the Prince of Israel” (Dan. x. 21) – William L. Alexander, ed., A Cyclopedia of Biblical Literature, originally edited by John Kitto, 3d ed. (Edinburgh: A. & C. Black, 1886). vol. 3, p. 158.

Theodore Beza:
Daniel 10:13- Even though God could by one angel destroy all the world, yet to assure his children of his love he sends forth double power, even Michael, that is, Christ Jesus the head of angels.
bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GenevaStudyBible/gen.cgi?book=da&chapter=010.
Daniel 12:1 - The angel here notes two things: first that the Church will be in great affliction and trouble at Christ’s coming, and next that God will send his angel to deliver it, whom he here calls Michael, meaning Christ, who is proclaimed by the preaching of the Gospel.
bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GenevaStudyBible/gen.cgi?book=da&chapter=012

John Wesley:
Daniel 10:13 Withstood me - God suffered the wicked counsels of Cambyses to take place awhile; but Daniel by his prayers, and the angel by his power, overcame him at last: and this very thing laid a foundation of the ruin of the Persian monarchies. Michael - Michael here is commonly supposed to mean Christ. I remained - To counter - work their designs against the people of God.
Daniel 10:21 - Michael - Christ alone is the protector of his church, when all the princes of the earth desert or oppose it.
bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/WesleysExplanatoryNotes/wes.cgi?book=da&chapter=010.
Daniel 12:1 - For the children - The meaning seems to be, as after the death of Antiochus the Jews had some deliverance, so there will be yet a greater deliverance to the people of God, when Michael your prince, the Messiah shall appear for your salvation.
bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/WesleysExplanatoryNotes/wes.cgi?book=da&chapter=012

Adam Clarke:
But lo, Michael
Daniel 10:13 - Gabriel, who speaks, did not leave Cyrus till Michael came to take his place. Michael, he who is like God, sometimes appears to signify the Messiah, at other times the highest or chief archangel. Indeed there is no archangel mentioned in the whole Scripture but this one. See Jude 1:9; Revelation 12:7.
studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=da&chapter=10&verse=13#Da10_13

John Gill:
Daniel 10:13 - but, lo, Michael one of the chief Princes, came to help me; called in the New Testament an Archangel, the Prince of angels, the Head of all principality and power; and is no other than Christ the Son of God, an uncreated Angel; who is “one”, or “the first of the chief Princes” {x}, superior to angels, in nature, name, and office.
studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=da&chapter=10&verse=13
Daniel 10:21 - and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your Prince; Christ the Prince of the kings of the earth, he was the Prince, Protector, and Guardian of the people of the Jews; he is the Angel that went before them in the wilderness, and guarded them in it, and guided them into the land of Canaan
studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=da&chapter=010&verse=021
Daniel 12:1 - The Archangel, who has all the angels of heaven under him, and at his command, the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ; who is as God
studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=da&chapter=012&verse=001

Matthew Henry:
Daniel 12:1 - The angel had told Daniel what a firm friend Michael was to the church, ch. 10:21. He all along showed this friendship in the upper world; the angels knew it; but now Michael shall stand up in his providence, and work deliverance for the Jews, when he sees that their power is gone, Deu. 32:3. 6. Christ is that great prince, for he is the prince of the kings of the earth, Rev. 1:5.
bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/MatthewHenryComplete/mhc-com.cgi?book=da&chapter=012

 

[djconklin]

Note especially these words in Calvin’s quote: “I embrace the opinion of those.” i.e., there are others who are saying it, whom he does not name.

BTW, Calvin died 257 years before EGW was even born.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

&c…&c…&c…You have to remember that some people like to call themselves SDA even when they aren’t. Or, they may be some off-shoot.

**Yea we have the same problem with “Christians” ! Why should the cults be different? Do they worship prophet white also? **

---

**I know, don’t tell me, lay her to the side! **

 

[po18guy]

From another forum:

There are three main problems with your Leeeeeeeengthy post:

1. Not one of those men is an early chruch father. (We’re talking first century here)
2. Each of them, every one, is a heretic, lead astray by the error of sola scriptura.
3. A religion is, by definition, false if it suddenly sprouted in the US in the 1800s. Something strange about that century…

I know that the SDA teach some truth, but which? and where? On what subjects? Their church is so ridden with heresy that all sorts of strange teachings have come about. Might as well make up your own church - thousands have.

 

[po18guy]

It was Ellen G. White.

So when they claim to “follow” someo9ne and you’ve got evidence that they aren’t what does that tell you?

I have 5 bookcases full of books, so what? They were installing new doors on the apartments yesterday and one guy saw all my books and said “Someone likes to read!” You bethca!

I’ve yet to meet anyone who does. Close maybe, but not "strictly–for one, she didn’t even lay out “strict” guidelines, so how could they?

Does not follow from saying that Jesus was Michael the archangel. Read Dan. 10:21 and see what you think.

Really, where?

Ellen G. White was a devotional writer, not a systematic theologian. She is not to be used for theology, period.

My Chaplain at work is SDA and all that I posted is from my obervations and visits to his church. What is yours? Sounds markedly different.

As to the whole Angel/Jesus thing, the demon has probably inspired many over the centuries to deny Christ’s Divinity. If you were the evil one, isn’t that exactly what you would do? Of course!

You will note that Jesus had power over Satan. Would this be so if they were both created Angels? Sticky one there. So,do the SDA also believe that God is a creation? They must, since Christ and the Father are one. Weird, if true, and hard to explain if not.

 

[djconklin]

Not one of those men is an early chruch father.

The claim was that EGW made it up; the evidence shows that isn’t so.

A religion is, by definition, false if it suddenly sprouted in the US in the 1800s.

I did an extensive look at the definition of religion accumulating over 250. Your religion is your value construct of reality. Since you weren’t born before the 1800 then by your rule your religion is false. So, that doesn’t work.​

My Chaplain at work is SDA and all that I posted is from my obervations and visits to his church. What is yours?

You have a chaplain at work?!? Very few businesses have that. I have 40 years experience being an SDA and attended dozens of churches.

So,do the SDA also believe that God is a creation?

No.

 

[po18guy]

The claim was that EGW made it up; the evidence shows that isn’t so.

So? It’s still made up by men!

I did an extensive look at the definition of religion accumulating over 250. Your religion is your value construct of reality. Since you weren’t born before the 1800 then by your rule your religion is false. So, that doesn’t work.

This sounds like a canard! What dies your age have to do with eternal truth? And eternal punishment?​

You have a chaplain at work?!? Very few businesses have that. I have 40 years experience being an SDA and attended dozens of churches.

We share much., It’s just that the heretical beliefs that have been formulated and inserted into the SDA don’t square with any other faith. I know of no prophet who was appointed to change Christianity so fundamentally, and at such a late hour in history. That’s not found in scripture.