How are we saved?

[EdOsiecki]

John’s baptism and Christian baptism are very different as your own argument indicates. No one (I hope) would argue that anyone baptized by John was baptized into Christ; John’s baptism was preparatory, but not a sacrament.

It is true that Jesus baptizes us in the Holy Spirit; however, the fact that He does so does not suggest that He does not also endorse - indeed command - water baptism.

No one is arguing the connection between water baptism and the movement of the Holy Spirit which is illustrated as early as Genesis when the Spirit was moving over the waters in the account of creation. This relationship appears again and again throughout the Bible.

However, what you have failed to interact with are the plain words of scripture telling us in no uncertain terms that baptism washes away sin. The conversion of Saul of Tarsus makes this clear.

After meeting Jesus on the road to Damascus, Saul was struck blind for three days, and he fasted during that time. Then Ananias came to see him. Ananias did not preach the gospel to him nor did he ask Saul to recite the sinner’s prayer nor accept Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior. Instead, Ananias said simply, "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name’ " (Acts 9:16)

Interesting. You can bet that Paul already believed at this point. After three days of fasting, Paul didn’t want to grab a bite to eat before trotting down to the local synagogue for a symbolic baptism to testify to the inner transformation that had already occurred within. No! He got up, and got baptized in order to have his sins washed away. or Luke, the travelling companion of Paul, obviously captures Paul’s theology in this passage. Baptism washes away sin.

But maybe you’re right. Maybe Paul, the Ethiopian eunuch, and the Philippian Jailer blew it. They all missed a great chance to witness to Jesus. Well, here…let’s review one passage first:
Acts 16:25-34
25About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the other prisoners were listening to them. 26Suddenly there was such a violent earthquake that the foundations of the prison were shaken. At once all the prison doors flew open, and everybody’s chains came loose. 27The jailer woke up, and when he saw the prison doors open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself because he thought the prisoners had escaped. 28But Paul shouted, “Don’t harm yourself! We are all here!”
29The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” 32Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole family.
As the scriptures clearly indicate, the Philippian jailer and the adult members of his household who were old enough to accept Jesus as their personal Lord and savior were already saved by their faith alone. (Regrettfully, Luke was sloppy in his recounting of this incident and was not more careful to avoid giving the impression that minors had been baptized, also. I have read that into the passage to make this theology more obvious for the benefit of my Evangelical brothers.)

Getting baptized “immediately”, “at that hour of the night”, that is, “about midnight”, was a missed opportunity. The jailer should have waited a few weeks or until the next meeting of the local assembly when he could have been baptized in front of the entire congregation as a symbol of his salvation. This ceremony would have been more edifying for those who were already members of the Church.

I mean, why the rush? There was no time to witness to his friends with the exact date that he “got saved” or to invite them to attend the ceremony, no time to have his name printed in the bulletin, no party afterward…just a quick slam-dunk and it was over.

This whole, distasteful episode is at odds with how things would be done in the typical Bible church today. Moreover, the conversion of such an important official as the administrator of the local correctional facility would be quite a feather in the cap of any modern evangelist and a springboard to other ministry work in the region…what was Paul thinking?

Maybe he was thinking of his own conversion and how important it is to have one’s sins washed away in the waters of baptism.

Randy, Randy, Randy,
I ask you, if you knew for certain that you were going to die tonight, would you put more faith in the somewhat UNCLEAR water baptism Scriptures above or a Holy God (Jesus) who came down from heaven and very CLEARLY said Mat 26:28 "“This is my BLOOD----which is poured out—for the forgiveness of sins.” Rev.1:5 Jesus, "freed us from our sins by His BLOOD " Heb 9:22 “Without the shedding of BLOOD there is no forgiveness of sins” 2Cor.5:21,Jesus was made sin, His righteousness was imputed into us. In the Old T. no one was baptized, animals BLOOD was sacrificed to temp cover sins, New T. Jesus our Lamb was sacrificed. With water baptism, nothing is sacrificed, it’s only a sign of repentance Think about it, let me know. Love in Christ Ed.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The Early Church Fathers believed that being baptized was being born again. They baptized both adults and infants and they used three methods; immersion, pouring and sprinkling.

After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Before baptism, let the one baptizing and the one to be baptized fast, as also any others who are able. Command the one who is to be baptized to fast beforehand for one or two days (Didache 7:1 [ca. A.D. 70]).

Justin Martyr

As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father… and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus

He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

The link provided above offers writings, referencing baptism, by 11 of the early Church fathers, from 70AD to 408AD. I trust how the early Christians practiced Christianity, myself.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Hello Randy Carson, this is the first time I have spoken to you.

It looks like Ed doesn’t want to answer the questions you and I asked him earlier about whether a child who becomes a grownup can loose the salvation he says the child has by being a child. His comments seem contrived to spin his way out of an illogical, unbiblical circumstance. I can see why he dodges the question because he would have to change his position.

Anyway, this conversation with him pits his selective verses against the whole of the development of God’s revelation as well as salvation history. His exegesis is such that he guesses the meanings of texts and deny’s the understanding of Christ’s Church that has been going on for centuries. He introduces new concepts of his theology that he says are true that have not been held by Christs’s Church, and makes his understanding more important than those who Christ gave the authority to teach in His name.

He does not see the beginnings of baptism being in the old covenant pointing to the new. He does not understand the concept of sacrament that is perfected in the new covenant. This is a shame because he has a wonderful faith and could contribute much to the enlightenment of people in their faith if he understood the meaning of Christ’s Church.

mdcpensive1

My reply to you mdcpensive 1 is, I don’t bother with foolish questions, give me a valid one and I’ll answer it. love in Christ Ed

 

[mdcpensive1]

My reply to you mdcpensive 1 is, I don’t bother with foolish questions, give me a valid one and I’ll answer it. love in Christ Ed

My answer to you Ed is that there are only foolish answers. My question and Randy Carsons is very valid and passed over by you. In all charity you should at least try to answer it. The reason we have these discussions is to exchange information and views and I welcome yours. It just seems to me, and correct me if I am wrong, that you have selective vision as to which scriptures you choose. There have been some people here that have spent much time and effort to present the faith of the Church and you have missed or just plain disregarded their efforts which is not fair to them. I just want to say that to really understand the message of Christ you must always view scripture in totality. You can’t pit one passage against another just as you can’t pit Christ against the bible. It doesn’t work that way. It is contrary to logic. Christ is not giving us a message about himself and the Church He left behind to be contrary to one another.

In your defense, some questions are very complex and involves much verbage to develop the concept of how God has shown us what He wants. God always works in the same type of processes. Therefore we have to understand the relationships between signs and symbols. This is always a difficult process and must be reflected on in prayer and with the mind of the Church.

mdcpensive1

 

[EdOsiecki]

Hey Ed,

While I can understand how you arrive at your understanding, I cannot forget Jesus’ words where I gain my understanding.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Then I think on the story of the Ethiopian eunuch, who believed and confessed his belief to the Apostle Philip.

Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came to a certain water. And the eunuch said: See, here is water: What doth hinder me from being baptized?
Act 8:37 And Philip said: If thou believest with all thy heart, thou mayest. And he answering, said: I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still. And they went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch. And he baptized him.
Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord took away Philip: and the eunuch saw him no more. And he went on his way rejoicing.

It seems that baptism was important to the eunuch after hearing Jesus preached to him and once he said he believed, Philip baptized him.

If I am repeating an argument already discussed, please forgive me. I was only responding to why I believe the thief was not required to be born again of water.

Prodical Son 1 Thank you for your interest. My question, why are you listing all the water baptism Scriptures for salvation and the forginess of sins that is bias to your position and nothing at ALL that pertains to Jesus’ BLOOD that forgives sins? such as Mat.26:28, “This is my BLOOD ----poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins” Rev1:5, “Him (Jesus) who loves us and has freed us from our sins by His BLOOD.” Eph.2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the BLOOD of Christ, Heb.9:22, “without the sheding of BLOOD there is NO forgiveness .” I very much agree with your above quoting John 3:5 " unless a ‘man be born again’ of water and the Holy Spirit” Yes, that suggests water baptism and I agree. But Jesus did NOT say that, He said " man born of water". When “again” is added (which violates Scripture) that changes the meaning of that Scripture. I very respectfully ask that you check the true meaning of John 3:5 per my comment on #278.

 

[ron77nyc]

Here’s the deal…we agree on the source (Grace of God - through the Passion). We disagree on the EFFECT. You think it’s by faith, and claim that you don’t add to Grace, but you do. And guess what? You’re SUPPOSED to. We all are. Because GOD does. But we’re not adding to the SOURCE, Ed. That’s apostasy, heresy. Some believe that Catholics add “works” (defined as lifelong obedience to His Word) to the SOURCE. Wrong. You see, God Himself has instituted the EFFECT. And it just so happens that it is not a singular act (faith). It is all over Scripture that it is not by faith alone that salvation is effected for us. It is a few things, and we must comply with all of them. I use the acronym BFOR, sounding intentionally like “before”, because these are things we must do for all our lives (except one baptism) in order for us to have salvation EFFECTED for us, through the ONE SOURCE of God’s Grace.

B…baptism
F…faith
O…obedience
R…repentance

And so, Grace opens the door (praise be to God). And we must walk through it BFOR we are saved.

God Bless

Hi Steve,
This makes perfect sense to me. I wish it had been explained like this 40 yrs ago. Here is my question. In real life many baptized Catholics grow up to be atheists or mobsters. How do they fit into the picture? Were they ever believers in Jesus Christ? If not, was their baptism valid?

 

[ralphy]

Why, yes, as a matter of fact. It’s called “baptism of desire”. Time for you to do some homework on that, Ralphy.

“Baptism of desire”! Where did you ever get that from, that’s new to me. Would you explain that to me please, or maybe scripture would do a better job of answering it, do you have any. Ralph

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

#278.

Hey Ed,

I provided scriptures for baptism, as that’s where the discussion happened to be at the time. It was not my intention to exclude the sacrifice of Christ, if that’s what you mean.

I read your view of John 3:5 and understand how you arrive at that view. Personally, I trust the Church’s view and the view of the early Church fathers, who wrote how the earliest Christians believed and practiced Christianity.

The Didache
After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Before baptism, let the one baptizing and the one to be baptized fast, as also any others who are able. Command the one who is to be baptized to fast beforehand for one or two days (Didache 7:1 [ca. A.D. 70]).
Justin Martyr
As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father… and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life” (On Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).
When we are about to enter the water — no, just a little before — In the church and under the hand of the bishop, we solemnly profess that we renounce the devil and his pomps and his angels. Thereupon we are immersed three times (The Crown 3:2 [A.D. 211]).
Hippolytus
Where there is no scarcity of water the stream shall flow through the baptismal font or pour into it from above; but if water is scarce, whether on a constant condition or on occasion, then use whatever water is available. Let them remove their clothing. Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).
Recognitions of Clement
But you will perhaps say, ‘What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: “Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven” (Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).
Origen
The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine sacraments, knew there is in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).
Cornelius I
As [the heretic Novatian] seemed about to die, he received baptism in the bed where he lay, by pouring. . . . (Letter to Fabius of Antioch 6:43 [A.D. 251]).
Cyprian
[l]t behooves those to be baptized . . . so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God . . . because it is written “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (Epistles 72 [73]: 21 [A.D. 252]).
As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).
In the saving sacraments, when necessity compels and when God bestows his pardon, divine benefits are bestowed fully upon believers, nor ought anyone be disturbed because the sick are poured upon or sprinkled when they receive the Lord’s grace" (Letter to a Certain Magnus 69(76):12 [A.D. 254]).

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Continued…

Ambrose
The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ’s blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in baptism (Col. 2:11-12)] so that he can be saved . . . for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of baptism… “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (On Abraham 2:11:79-84 [A.D. 387]).
Augustine
It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, “Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents” or “by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,” but, “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.” The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

“Baptism of desire”! Where did you ever get that from, that’s new to me. Would you explain that to me please, or maybe scripture would do a better job of answering it, do you have any. Ralph

Ralphy,

Demanding everything be written in scriptures can sidetrack a discussion, as there are several things practiced by sola scripturist Protestants that are not in scriptures. Why is it some Protestants demand each and every aspect of the Catholic faith must be written in scriptures, yet accept their own non-scriptural beliefs as a matter of faith? Why the double standard?

 

[SteveGC]

Hi Steve,
This makes perfect sense to me. I wish it had been explained like this 40 yrs ago. Here is my question. In real life many baptized Catholics grow up to be atheists or mobsters. How do they fit into the picture? Were they ever believers in Jesus Christ? If not, was their baptism valid?

Wayward Catholics is always a tough subject for me too. The simple answer would be…

Yes, their baptism will forever remain valid, in the sense that it does not have to be repeated. This would be true whether they ever believed or not.

If they fail to come to believe in their lifetime, their baptism will have no effect in their salvation, and presumably their opportunity for heaven is minimal. Only God knows their heart, of course.

If they return to belief (and repent and obey), their baptism still remains, and becomes efficacious in their salvation. If someone returns to belief (and repents and obeys), but they were never baptized, their salvation is questionable because of this missing sacrament, and so they must be baptized.

Here’s the main point…Baptism is required…but it is not the ONLY thing required. It’s not baptism-alone, nor faith-alone, nor obedience-alone, nor repentance-alone. It’s not one thing. The only thing that is ONE thing is the source of our salvation, finished on the cross. Non-Catholics erroneously equate that singular source with the plural effects.

God Bless

 

[twb1621]

Here is a recent story about Protestant Pentecostals ministering to Catholics. Would you say they are not one body?

I am sorry but I do not understand what you are asking… who is the "they you are asking about in this reference?

 

[SteveGC]

Prodical Son 1 Thank you for your interest. My question, why are you listing all the water baptism Scriptures for salvation and the forginess of sins that is bias to your position and nothing at ALL that pertains to Jesus’ BLOOD that forgives sins? such as Mat.26:28, “This is my BLOOD ----poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins” Rev1:5, “Him (Jesus) who loves us and has freed us from our sins by His BLOOD.” Eph.2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the BLOOD of Christ, Heb.9:22, “without the sheding of BLOOD there is NO forgiveness .” I very much agree with your above quoting John 3:5 " unless a ‘man be born again’ of water and the Holy Spirit” Yes, that suggests water baptism and I agree. But Jesus did NOT say that, He said " man born of water". When “again” is added (which violates Scripture) that changes the meaning of that Scripture. I very respectfully ask that you check the true meaning of John 3:5 per my comment on #278.

Ed,

You’re having quite a difficult time in acknowledging cause and effect of forgiveness of sins. The blood is the cause. The water is the effect.

Catholics don’t deny the blood as the principal source of it all. We simply are trying to educate you on the fact that our necessary replication of His death (and resurrection) in our lives is effected by baptism, and the fact that this (His shed blood) then becomes efficacious for the forgiveness of sins in our lives.

Furthermore, your eisegesis on John 3 is leading you astray. You are trying to divide water and spirit when Jesus never does. You claim John 3:6 shows this division, but it doesn’t, for John 3:5 inseparably links them (water AND spirit needed for entrance to the Kingdom). Verse 6 is Jesus trying to emphasize spiritual rebirth. He’s not linking water to flesh. This business about flesh being 70% water, and how that shows that water = flesh is laughable, your link to the science page notwithstanding. You think Nicodemus knew that he was made up of 70% water?? He would’ve had to, in order for your interpretation to have any meaning. Water wasn’t the confusing thing for Nicodemus…it was spiritual rebirth. Hence verse 6.

PS1 was not “adding” to Scripture with Jn 3:5. This is the Douay Rheims translation of that verse, and it simply is a continuation of Jn 3:3. It doesn’t change the meaning at all. You don’t have a problem with born “again” in verse 3. Why do you have a problem if some translations restate it in verse 5? That’s all it is, a restatement from the previous verse of the second birth. Look at them; they’re both talking about the type of birth for entrance to the Kingdom. Even protestant translations could have “again” in verse 5, and it wouldn’t change the meaning from verse 3.

Lastly, I’d be interested in your response to my post 285.

God Bless

 

[ron77nyc]

For one to become Baptized in the Holy Spirit and believe that to be the entirety of the Gifts Jesus offered us or the only responsibility we have in our side of the covenant with our savior is misinformed and misguided and to the benefit only of the prince of this world who is the father of deceit and who certainly would not want you to seek the full graces Christ offers us.
… You haven’t reached the other side of the sandbank to experience ALL the majesty and Grace offered my pilgrim brother. You’re not accepting the sacramental gifts (sacraments are sensible signs, instituted by Jesus Christ, by which invisible grace and inward sanctification are communicated to the soul) that strengthen and bring one closer into a relationship with God through the graces Jesus offers.

Remember this is Peter giving these instructions as the assigned authority over the establishment of the one Church founded by Jesus Himself. “I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received,”

To deny there is but one body as spoken, which is in fact the Church (body) of Christ (the Head) with the hierarchy “…**And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, **13 until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the extent of the full stature of Christ,” also as established and to deny the necessity of continuing and growing as a part of that Church, is to deny the teachings and authority clearly proclaimed.

4 “…one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.”

---

I am sorry but I do not understand what you are asking… who is the "they you are asking about in this reference?

“THEY” means protestants and catholics. You were talking about building up the body with spiritual gifts. In Africa the protestant pentecostals are ministering to the catholics who are not trained for spiritual warfare.

 

[twb1621]

Thank you twb 1621 for your response. I beg of your forgiveness if I’m wrong but you seem to imply that just because my only source is the Bible that I’m missing out on something more that God can offer me. 1Cor 2:16 " ----But strange as it seems, we Christians actually do have within us a portion of the very thoughts and mind of Christ." Are you saying that can be trumped ??? You say" sacraments are sensible signs, instituted by Jesus Christ" I find two in the Bible. If there are more they are not in the Bible, yet one would think that that would be the first and best place to have listed them wouldn’t you?.

Your very welcome Ed…
This is exactly the problem with those who follow the idea that the Bible holds all there is in the Teachings of our Savior as a “do it yourself” book of salvation. At some point one must consider and hopefully arrive at the realization that;

1. the Bible was taken from the Catholic Faith where its origin is a historic fact.
2. The writings, which had not been written with the foreknowledge and intent of one day becoming what we refer to as the Bible, had been later recognized by the True Church founded by Jesus and established by the very same Apostles as the inspired Word written by and on behalf of the Apostles.
3. The Apostles along with their successors and so on established this Church and all this is historically verifiable.
4. The individual texts were verified by the Catholic Church before acceptance into the compiled books of the Bible.
5. The Catholic Church established the Canon.
6. The Catholic Church utilized the later recognized and compiled Books (the Bible) as an equally critical part of the teachings of Jesus our Savior AND USED THEM AS SUCH but NEVER alonE.
7. The Apostles learned Christ’s teachings verbally as His disciples.
8. The Apostles verbally proclaimed His teachings to the masses (of people) and verbally passed those teachings on to their successors for hundreds of years before there was any written Word.
9. There was no Bible and any scriptural reference by the Apostles was in regard to the Septuagint as there was no written New Testament.
10. There was (and never will be) another True Christian Faith according to Scripture.

The Bible was taken from its source. Its purpose and proper use has been basically abused, distorted and in some cases altered by those who chose to take it to establish their own belief system different than that which had been taught by our Christ and His Church.

And I offer these verses once again for consideration;

Peter giving these instructions as the assigned authority over the establishment of the one Church founded by Jesus Himself. “I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received,”

To deny there is but one body as spoken, which is in fact the Church (body) of Christ (the Head) with the hierarchy “…**And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, **13 until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the extent of the full stature of Christ,” also as established and to deny the necessity of continuing and growing as a part of that Church, is to deny the teachings and authority clearly proclaimed.

4 “…one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.”

 

[twb1621]

“THEY” means protestants and catholics. You were talking about building up the body with spiritual gifts. In Africa the protestant pentecostals are ministering to the catholics who are not trained for spiritual warfare.

Not my words but I was providing excerpts from the Gospel according to Peter;

Ephesians CH 4; 1 I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love, 3 striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace: 4 **one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; ****5 ****one Lord, one faith, one baptism; ****6 **one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore, it says: “He ascended on high and took prisoners captive; he gave gifts to men.” 9 What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended into the lower (regions) of the earth? 10 The one who descended is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things. 11 **And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers, ****12 ****to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, ****13 ****until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the extent of the full stature of Christ, **14 so that we may no longer be infants, tossed by waves and swept along by every wind of teaching arising from human trickery, from their cunning in the interests of deceitful scheming. 15 Rather, **living the truth in love, we should grow in every way into him who is the head, Christ, ****16 ****from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, with the proper functioning of each part, brings about the body’s growth and builds itself up in love. **

Ephesians CH 1; 18 May the eyes of (your) hearts be enlightened, that you may know what is the hope that belongs to his call, what are the riches of glory in his inheritance among the holy ones, 19 and what is the surpassing greatness of his power for us who believe, in accord with the exercise of his great might, 20 which he worked in Christ, raising him from the dead and seating him at his right hand in the heavens, 21 far above every principality, authority, power, and dominion, and every name that is named not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things beneath his feet **and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way. **

No protestant faith follows the complete teachings of the Church founded by Christ and if they did they would not be protestant. If we base our answer on scripture, unless their beliefs where the same as those teachings of the True Church founded by Christ, no IMO they certainly would not be “one Body” in the complete sense of teachings and beliefs. And I agree with the article you referred to completely. “…until we all Attain to the Unity of Faith” would mean gather in the one true Faith or belief system.

 

[ron77nyc]

No protestant faith follows the complete teachings of the Church founded by Christ and if they did they would not be protestant. If we base our answer on scripture, unless their beliefs where the same as those teachings of the True Church founded by Christ, no IMO they certainly would not be “one Body” in the complete sense of teachings and beliefs. And I agree with the article you referred to completely. “…until we all Attain to the Unity of Faith” would mean gather in the one true Faith or belief system.

I agree with everything you say but what puzzles me about the story in Africa is that the Protestants who take the bible out of context know how to do exorcisms and healings and the Catholics who have the fullness of truth are not doing it.

 

[twb1621]

I agree with everything you say but what puzzles me about the story in Africa is that the Protestants who take the bible out of context know how to do and the Catholics who have the fullness of truth are not doing it.

We are speaking of many who without knowing the Bride of Christ and unwittingly follow a faith system founded by individuals who left the Church to pursue establishing a faith based on his/her own beliefs and disbeliefs, of which primarily promoted discarding sacraments that we as Catholics know Jesus gave us in order to receive strength through grace to fight our weaknesses and the deceit of Satan. If in fact we believe Satan is behind deceiving those who fall away from the CC we should also realize in the performance of exorcisms, healings or other supernatural occurrences Satan can certainly cause the appearance of such successful affects and it would not be out of the question for the prince of lies to use such methods to convince those who may be weak to such deception to come to a “belief system” that denies the necessity of certain sacraments to be saved and promotes the lack of necessity of the Church to teach Christ’s ways, that it is wrong to ask for the supportive prays of the Saints or the Blessed Virgin but ok, to ask each other to pray for you and so forth.

 

[SHW]

We are speaking of many who without knowing the Bride of Christ and unwittingly follow a faith system founded by individuals who left the Church to pursue establishing a faith based on his/her own beliefs and disbeliefs, of which primarily promoted discarding sacraments that we as Catholics know Jesus gave us in order to receive strength through grace to fight our weaknesses and the deceit of Satan. If in fact we believe Satan is behind deceiving those who fall away from the CC we should also realize in the performance of exorcisms, healings or other supernatural occurrences Satan can certainly cause the appearance of such successful affects and it would not be out of the question for the prince of lies to use such methods to convince those who may be weak to such deception to come to a “belief system” that denies the necessity of certain sacraments to be saved and promotes the lack of necessity of the Church to teach Christ’s ways, that it is wrong to ask for the supportive prays of the Saints or the Blessed Virgin but ok, to ask each other to pray for you and so forth.

This may help us understand:

Luke 9:49-50 “Now John answered and said, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us.” 50 But Jesus said to him, “Do not forbid him, for he who is not against us is on our side.”

 

[ron77nyc]

We are speaking of many who without knowing the Bride of Christ and unwittingly follow a faith system founded by individuals who left the Church to pursue establishing a faith based on his/her own beliefs and disbeliefs, of which primarily promoted discarding sacraments that we as Catholics know Jesus gave us in order to receive strength through grace to fight our weaknesses and the deceit of Satan. If in fact we believe Satan is behind deceiving those who fall away from the CC we should also realize in the performance of exorcisms, healings or other supernatural occurrences Satan can certainly cause the appearance of such successful affects and it would not be out of the question for the prince of lies to use such methods to convince those who may be weak to such deception to come to a “belief system” that denies the necessity of certain sacraments to be saved and promotes the lack of necessity of the Church to teach Christ’s ways, that it is wrong to ask for the supportive prays of the Saints or the Blessed Virgin but ok, to ask each other to pray for you and so forth.

Catholics are seeking help outside the Catholic Church because the Catholic Church is not casting out demons and curing diseases. Spiritual warfare is a part of the whole truth of the Church that is written about by Paul in the book of Ephesians. Spiritual warfare is for the edification of the body of Christ and it’s a part of Christ’s instruction to the Church.

Mark 16:17 These signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new languages;

Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, and cast out demons. Freely you received, so freely give.

Luke 9:1 He called the twelve together, and gave them power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases.