How can Catholics vote for Joe Biden

[felsguy]

Again, this is not an attack. Just think this through:

So, after searching your “conscience” you can HONESTLY reply to everyone here that even though Biden has openly admitted to being pro abortion, pro gay marriage (even presiding over one), pro stem cell, pro contraception (and these are already three of the non-negotiables listed by the USCCB), and other ideas, that your conscience is “okay” with Biden? Seriously? None of those things are against the USCCB’s voting guidelines, the RCC’s Catechism, or your internal compass? None?

Holding that the taking of the life of the unborn or that marriage is a lifelong commitment between only a man and a woman has been consistently taught by the Church and reinforced by its Catechism (and likewise in keeping with my own “internal compass” since you ask.) Voting for a candidate who holds otherwise is permissable “for truly grave moral reasons” and when “guided by a well-formed conscience” according to the USCCB’s guidelines.

In the end, as the bishops statement continues, each Catholic must make his/her decision accordingly, as I have done. I would resent any implication that in doing so I have not “searched my conscience” or am somehow being “DISHONEST” here if it were not for the fact that we are two stranger trying to state our beliefs accurately and somewhat concisely by typing on the internet no less.

 

[EssentialBeing]

each Catholic must make his/her decision accordingly, as I have done. I would resent any implication that in doing so I have not “searched my conscience” or am somehow being “DISHONEST”

That is exactly correct, if we as Catholics have found it in our hearts & minds to consciously make any decision (regardless of who we vote for) then we stand “true to our very own conviction” It would be reasonable to accept, that it’s an extremely righteous way to be in the eyes of God. When we participate in voting in a fair & evenly competitive race, then we are abiding by our very own moral system of consciousness & of course, “laws, whether natural or man made”

 

[Johann_du_Toit]

This article on Crisis Magazine sums up perfectly the moral issues at stake and why voting for the Democrats, in their current form, is not acceptable.

Pro-Choice is Pro-Genocide - Crisis Magazine

 

[EssentialBeing]

A very good point & yes I agree with the gravity of the crime. It involves carrying out or arranging to carry out the deliberate killing of an innocent human being. SO TRUE

However we can never forget the damage & reckless killing, that our very own global structure of ideology can cause on others who are also innocent. Humanities history with war, political influence & methods of control, has also had a disastrous impact on innocent people.

Again I agree that abortion is the willingness to kill any unborn & is extremely serious & for many it is the number one issue. In saying that we must also weigh up the continual friction caused on other innocent lives.

Members of the populace who vote in favor of pro-abortion politicians are complicit in the intrinsic evil of legalized abortion. - Patrick Chisholm 2020

As pointed out earlier, that for many, it comes down to the following

there are many competing issues, when put together can be easily seen, as out weighing any single issue.

Besides that we have the principal of conscious decision & whether we choose to pick one single issue or several combined, becomes perfectly acceptable in the eyes of God. The truth to this is that, no matter the way we vote, only that we vote in accordance with our heart. As long as we do that, then the measure of our conscience would be perfectly explainable.

For anyone to say that it is a crime against humanity for people to vote in one way or the other, is totally against the principals of our humanity. Surely we can say that God gave us this system & by it we exercise our morals, meaning we willingly participate in voting on a fair & evenly competitive race.

 

[ValleyCatholic]

I am unable to see how MULTIPLE, non-negotiable grave sins on key Catholic issues can be weighed against another candidate who, while EXTREMELY flawed in many ways, has not been shown to exhibit those same sins. Again, I did not vote for Trump, and I understand not wanting to vote for him. However, how does one condemn his behavior, words, or actions and yet vote for a man who believes as Biden does? One’s feelings against Trump are not sufficient to outweigh the ACTIONS of Biden. Again, don’t vote for Trump, but to say that voting for Biden meets with Church approval is dishonest. In fact, I have read many times here how peoples’ conscience allows them to vote for Biden, despite the facts of his heresy, but I have yet to read WHY Trump is so detestable to those same peoples’ conscience. I’d be curious to hear how someone reconciles that.

 

[pnewton]

(and these are already three of the non-negotiables listed by the USCCB)

I am linking the chapter of the voter’s guide on the issues.

https://www.usccb.org/issues-and-ac...consciences-for-faithful-citizenship-part-two

Some are more important than others. None are listed as negotiable.

Another point to consider, and why character is important, is that we do not know what issues will come up within the next four years. No one foresaw COVID, for example. This is a huge pro-life issue. America has definitely taken the lead, but not in a good way. In fact, under Trump the WHO will be defunded next year. This is the organization that eliminated smallpox, a disease that killed hundreds of millions. We can argue the politics, but the lives they save is undeniable, since saving life is a bigger issue than any economic or political issue.

Anyway, I linked the actual USCCB website, so the true or false of your statement is not in my hands.

 

[Kit15]

In spite of our victories these past four years Trump has so damaged our credibility on this issue. I’ve said elsewhere that he must have learned how to be pro-life from democrats because he is a democrat caricature of our movement: not caring about anybody once they are out of the womb. That’s not good! That talking point constantly gets used against us and here comes Trump actually doing it. He is not a person we want representing us. He has done much to expand the powers of the executive branch to a degree that I’m not okay with. It’s “great” when it’s our guy but boy will it stink when we have someone from the other side with a similar attitude towards the office. A precedent needs to be set that NOW that how he treats the oval office is not acceptable.

My vote is not about fighting abortion for the next 4 years. It’s about having the ability to continue to fight abortion for the next 16 years. What good are 4 years if we can’t get republicans elected again for at least a decade because Trump wrecked our credibility and reputation?

I’ve seen how my conservative friends react to Biden/Harris. But more valuable has been watching how my liberal friends have reacted to them…not exactly their top guy but whatever. 2020 is definitely a race about Trump specifically and not that the country is looking for a liberal revolution. 2024 is still an unknown. We WILL have a democrat in office again someday because that’s how trends go. I would much rather it be Biden now, someone the left “settled for” to beat Trump, than whoever they put up once Trump can no longer run.

I’ve begged God in prayer for years that if Trump is the best way to bring about His will then please alter my conscience because people telling me “a vote for Biden is a vote for abortion” or jabs are the state of my soul don’t ring true to me anymore.

See…a vote for Biden feels like setting down my weapon. A vote for Trump feels like breaking my own leg to prove my loyalty to the cause. The latter makes a great show. Heck of a lot more exciting and inspirational to the team than the traitorous loser who dropped their sword. But a dropped sword can be picked up in seconds. A broken leg takes weeks to heal and it might not ever be the same again.

Words that I must vote for Trump, that I can’t be a Catholic and vote for Biden, that I will answer to God for this…it all sounds like “Break your leg. Do it do it do it, you wuss. If you break your leg, you can still keep your sword. Just break your leg, traitor. If you cared about the fight you’d break your leg. If you were one of us you’d break your leg.” That’s…what it sounds like my head. I’m not voting “for abortion”. I’m voting to keep my dang legs intact so that I can fight at all.

 

[Dracarys]

This thread started out as finding ways to denigrate Joe Biden for his faulty Catholicism, which frankly is fairly easy to do. I am quite surprised that anyone would think that the best way to get at Joe Biden was to denigrate the Pope. I think you have lost sight of your goal.

Where did I denigrate Biden? You tend to debate with emotion and you are not accurate. The purpose of this thread is to ask how any Catholic can vote for Biden given that he and his running mate are more adamant supporters of abortion than any other Democrat that has run in the past.

 

[ValleyCatholic]

Here is another document that also refers to the USCCB doc for those who want another look at it. Tim Staples, Trent Horn, and others have also written about this.

 

[Dracarys]

ValleyCatholic:

No, he has recently stated he is open to packing the courts.

You are lying to yourself. I’m not pro Trump, but you are deceiving yourself if you think you can vote for Biden and be a good Catholic.

No. He didn’t.

But this is a attempt at side tracking. The courts are not the main issue in the world, and if the number of justices change, so be it. If their term becomes limited rather than life appointment, so be it. If it stays at nine and life appointment, so be it.

Thinking the court is the first or best way to get what you want is nonsense.

Biden said voters don’t have a right to know what he will do. This tells me he will pack the court but won’t say for fear of losing voters who do realize this is a big deal. Look above and you will see a direct quote from Harris stating that she wants to pack the courts.

You obviously don’t know how government works if you believe a court packed with a majority of liberals won’t do significant damage. Cases will come before the court deciding if tax payer money should be used to pay for abortions, support for Planned Parenthood, issues forcing insurance companies to pay for abortions and many other pro abortion issues we haven’t even thought of.

don’t think I can be a good Catholic and vote for a mentally ill megalomaniac who may destroy the republic with his lawlessness, lying, and delusional behavior.

President Trump has been in office for four years and before COVID the republic was doing good. The economy was growing, the stock market was increasing, and unemployment was down. Not voting for President Trump because you don’t like him personally is immature.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

This thread started out as finding ways to denigrate Joe Biden for his faulty Catholicism, which frankly is fairly easy to do. I am quite surprised that anyone would think that the best way to get at Joe Biden was to denigrate the Pope. I think you have lost sight of your goal.

Where did I denigrate Biden? You tend to debate with emotion and you are not accurate. The purpose of this thread is to ask how any Catholic can vote for Biden given that he and his running mate are more adamant supporters of abortion than any other Democrat that has run in the past.

It is odd that you have to denigrate the Pope to prove your point.

 

[Dracarys]

But for the sake of argument I will point to Universal Healthcare or Medicare, Education, Environmental Policy as well as Foreign Relations, IMHO are much stronger & far reaching by the Democrats than Republican, at least under these 2 leaders

This thread is about the dangers Biden possess to further the cause of abortion. Things like universal health care and the green new deal sound good on their face and reactionary Catholics rush to lend support. However once you look at the details of these things you find they are far too expensive and they will never work as intended.

 

[Dracarys]

It is odd that you have to denigrate the Pope to prove your point

It is off you keep accusing me of “denigration” when I am not. It’s odd that you make accusations that are unfounded.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

It is odd that you have to denigrate the Pope to prove your point

It is off you keep accusing me of “denigration” when I am not. It’s odd that you make accusations that are unfounded.

You had this very same argument with @Fauken one day ago where you said:

Dracarys:

I did not insult the Pope. I said he is the most liberal pope I have seen.

Liberals claim to be for freedom, but from what I’ve seen they are intolerant of the opinions of Christians.

Can you imagine any of the last several popes supporting homosexual unions?

So I guess your point is it is OK to be a liberal and intolerant of opinions of Christians and supporting of homosexuality ???

You ascribe these characteristics to the Pope, and then say you are not denigrating him. One can only assume these are not bad characteristics (in your opinion).

 

[Dracarys]

As Catholics & any other religion for that matter, you have every right to make your own choice, without fear of what your Church may or may not think of you

I agree and I would not want to live in a Theocracy. But this is not about what the Church says you CAN do, but rather what you SHOULD do if you are a Catholic who follows the Church’s position on abortion.

 

[Dracarys]

So I guess your point is it is OK to be a liberal and intolerant of opinions of Christians and supporting of homosexuality ???

You ascribe these characteristics to the Pope, and then say you are not denigrating him. One can only assume these are not bad characteristics (in your opinion).

That is silly circular logic and you know it. It is undeniable that this Pope is more to the left than any other before him in recent history. Can you honestly see John Paul II or Benedict come out in favor of civil unions?

Saying someone is liberal does not equate to denigration. I think you need a dictionary.

 

[christofirst]

Is that your phone number?

I’ll call you after the election when hopefully we all live in peace again

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

So I guess your point is it is OK to be a liberal and intolerant of opinions of Christians and supporting of homosexuality ???

You ascribe these characteristics to the Pope, and then say you are not denigrating him. One can only assume these are not bad characteristics (in your opinion).

That is silly circular logic and you know it. It is undeniable that this Pope is more to the left than any other before him…

Saying someone is liberal does not equate to denigration. I think you need a dictionary.

So, it is OK for the Pope to be liberal? Yes or no? You seems to be saying both yes and no.

 

[Dracarys]

So, after searching your “conscience” you can HONESTLY reply to everyone here that even though Biden has openly admitted to being pro abortion, pro gay marriage (even presiding over one), pro stem cell, pro contraception (and these are already three of the non-negotiables listed by the USCCB), and other ideas, that your conscience is “okay” with Biden? Seriously? None of those things are against the USCCB’s voting guidelines, the RCC’s Catechism, or your internal compass? None?

This is well said. And if the aging Biden does not make it to four years you know who takes his place. She is adamant about abortion to the point of codification of Roe vs Wade. That is why I named this thread HOW can a Catholic vote for Biden. Once you Biden voters examined your conscience HOW did you come to the conclusion that you will support a Biden Harris ticket? Help me understand your thought process!

 

[Dracarys]

So, it is OK for the Pope to be liberal? Yes or no? You seems to be saying both yes and no.

I am not going to say it is “OK” or not OK for the Pope to be anything. He is the elected Pope, and I personally agreed with most of what Pope John Paul II said, but not Pope Francis. I am in good company since many clergy think the same.