How can you be Democratic and also be Catholic?

[pnewton]

I believe “Catholics” that are trying to justify their vote for Democrats(who undeniably are in support of abortion) are being insidious and circumventing God’s will.

If you think posting uncharitably here is the way to advance any candidate, then you should re-think that position. You should not put “Catholics” in scare quotes as though you were the arbiter of who is a real Catholic, nor do you get to judge anyone of circumventing God’s will or being insidious. There is only one judge and he does not share His judgment throne.

A reminder for those who read their favorite political websites in favor of the Catholic Church. The Church did not put out this five non-negotiable list. It is a good list and a fine guide, but it is not what the Church gave us to guide voters. What the Church gave us was a guide on how to form and use our conscience. One’s conscience applies only to use. When we start trying to apply our conscience to others, especially with such condemnation, we supplant the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[c4csp]

If you think posting uncharitably here is the way to advance any candidate, then you should re-think that position. You should not put “Catholics” in scare quotes as though you were the arbiter of who is a real Catholic, nor do you get to judge anyone of circumventing God’s will or being insidious. There is only one judge and he does not share His judgment throne.

A reminder for those who read their favorite political websites in favor of the Catholic Church. The Church did not put out this five non-negotiable list. It is a good list and a fine guide, but it is not what the Church gave us to guide voters. What the Church gave us was a guide on how to form and use our conscience. One’s conscience applies only to use. When we start trying to apply our conscience to others, especially with such condemnation, we supplant the work of the Holy Spirit.

I am not judging anyone, but rather commenting on my observations from countless threads on this issue. I will continue to comment on the issue as well. Abortion is a grave evil, and voting for a candidate who openly promotes it, is a mortal sin. I know that comment cuts like a knife and folks are free to blast my comment or call it divisive, etc. Praise be to God my comments are ruffling feathers!

 

[Annie]

I thought I was address the question of whether it was even possible for a Catholic to vote for a Democrat without objectively violating Church teaching, which is the question raised by the title of this thread. My position is that it is possible.

Yes, I just wanted to clarify some aspects of what you seemed to be saying, as opposed to were trying to say.

I do not believe (and hopefully have not slipped into saying) that voting Democrat will land a Catholic in Hell. As you say, there are a lot of considerations involved.

However, each election year I see lots of people who could almost be paid Democrat operatives trying to persuade Catholics almost in the opposite way, that voting R is a mortal sin.

And I see some of their arguments picked up and repeated by regular people like you and others here on CAF, and I try to counter that.

One that I do not agree with is the implication that helping women with childbirth expenses increases the abortion rate.

I did not mean to imply that; I meant that increased help with expenses accompanied an increase, not caused the increase.

IOW, you suggest this help would cause a decrease; it would seem not to be the case, since an increase in help accompanied an increase before. Overall, the sexual revolt led to an incredible number of pregnancies to unmarried women, leading to an increase in both abortion and unwed mothers.

 

[pnewton]

Abortion is a grave evil, and voting for a candidate who openly promotes it, is a mortal sin.

Things the Church doesn’t teach.

It is close, but the differences are important. Abortion is a mortal sin, yes. Abortion is the greatest issue of our time. If one votes for someone who is pro abortion for the purpose of advancing abortion, that is sinful. Here is what the Church teaches:

A Catholic cannot vote for a candidate who favors a policy promoting an intrinsically evil act, such as abortion, euthanasia, assisted suicide, deliberately subjecting workers or the poor to subhuman living conditions, redefining marriage in ways that violate its essential meaning, or racist behavior, if the voter’s intent is to support that position. In such cases, a Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in grave evil.

If you want to be devise, then stick to the Truth, or give your opinion as your opinion, your conscience, which is not the guide to how others vote.

The Church is so pro-life, there is no need to exaggerate that position. The Church is also pro-truth.

 

[NevermoreLenore]

I believe “Catholics” that are trying to justify their vote for Democrats(who undeniably are in support of abortion) are being insidious and circumventing God’s will. They are attempting to use their intellectual faculties of reason and logic, all gifts from God, to muddy the waters, as if to downplay their accountability for such a vote.

This is extremely judgmental.

 

[pnewton]

I am not judging anyone,

You put the word “Catholic” in scare quotes/ You said you believe these scare quote Catholics are insidious and circumventing God’s will. You said that the use of reason by them is and attempt to muddy water.

I usually vote for the Republican candidate. I do not want them to overcome such harmful support.

 

[c4csp]

This is extremely judgmental.

You put the word “Catholic” in scare quotes/ You said you believe these scare quote Catholics are insidious and circumventing God’s will. You said that the use of reason by them is and attempt to muddy water.

I usually vote for the Republican candidate. I do not want them to overcome such harmful support.

Your opinion is duly noted.

 

[Rau]

we do not face this scenario

You may believe that (and you may be right). Thus you don’t face that situation. Other voters may come to a different conclusion - and therefore do face that situation. You can doubt their sincerity of course.

these issues are not prudential judgment issues, they are exactly opposite church teaching. there is no acceptable alternative. the consequences may be eternal.

Who to vote for is a prudential judgement. It’s been explained many times and I won’t repeat the explanations. I accept you disagree.

 

[pnewton]

You can doubt their sincerity of course.

There are people here, and in the world, whom I have gotten to know that vote for Democrats, and support them to more or lesser degree, while despising their stance on abortion. The one’s I am thinking of are spiritually mature and solid Catholics (no quotation marks). The idea that they can be judged so cruelly I find disconcerting. I do not always agree with the reasoning in these decisions, though with effort I understand the reasoning. I guess I get defensive when people come here new every election cycle and start their politicking by attacking brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[upant]

Who to vote for is a prudential judgement. It’s been explained many times and I won’t repeat the explanations. I accept you disagree.

but it must be consistent with church teaching. a person’s prudential judgment can be inconsistent with the church.

(Bold mine)

1. Prudential judgment is also needed in applying moral principles to specific policy choices in areas such as armed conflict, housing, health care, immigration, and others. This does not mean that all choices are equally valid, or that our guidance and that of other Church leaders is just another political opinion or policy preference among many others. Rather, we urge Catholics to listen carefully to the Church’s teachers when we apply Catholic social teaching to specific proposals and situations. The judgments and recommendations that we make as bishops on such specific issues do not carry the same moral authority as statements of universal moral teachings. Nevertheless, the Church’s guidance on these matters is an essential resource for Catholics as they determine whether their own moral judgments are consistent with the Gospel and with Catholic teaching. (Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship)

The guidance of the church prioritizes abortion, euthanasia, etc

1. St. John Paul II explained the importance of being true to fundamental Church teachings:

Above all, the common outcry, which is justly made on behalf of human rights-for example, the right to health, to home, to work, to family, to culture-is false and illusory if the right to life, the most basic and fundamental right and the condition for all other personal rights, is not defended with maximum determination. (Christifideles Laici, no. 38)
(Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship)

1. The first is a moral equivalence that makes no ethical distinctions between different kinds of issues involving human life and dignity. The direct and intentional destruction of innocent human life from the moment of conception until natural death is always wrong and is not just one issue among many. It must always be opposed
   (Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship)

 

[upant]

I guess I get defensive when people come here new every election cycle and start their politicking by attacking brothers and sisters in Christ.

attacking?

Ideally, we, as Christians, aim to help each other become more Christ-like. One of the ways we do this is precisely by engaging in arguments, (Jana Bennett)

 

[LeafByNiggle]

However, each election year I see lots of people who could almost be paid Democrat operatives trying to persuade Catholics almost in the opposite way, that voting R is a mortal sin.

I do not support such arguments, even a little bit. I sometimes vote R.

Overall, the sexual revolt led to an incredible number of pregnancies to unmarried women, leading to an increase in both abortion and unwed mother

Definitely!

 

[christofirst]

This is exactly why I bristle whenever I read the many references to communism and socialism, particularly when it comes to American politics in our present day. I disagree that programs and plans such as the social safety net, socialized healthcare, a progressive tax system, organized labor and sensible regulations on business and finance come anywhere close to the great evil of communism and the overreach of socialism, and yet those terms continue to be used.

I believe that those important things I which mentioned above fall under the category of solidarity, working toward the common good, and this is very much in line with Catholic social teaching. I personally think the Democrats address these issues better that others, but that is only my opinion and I know well that others disagree.

But again, pinning the labels “communism” and “socialism” on acceptable social programs makes it seem like it they are somehow prohibited by the Church, when indeed they are not. Rather, the Church often recommends and certainly allows such programs.

Edit to add: Now you know for certain why I never “like” those posts of yours where you say, even in jest, “I hate communists” or put up anticommunist memes, but instead I just avoid those comments. Yes, I agree, with you and the Church, that communism is unacceptable, but no, I do not believe that our current social programs in America are communist.

 

[Annie]

I do not support such arguments, even a little bit. I sometimes vote R

No, I didn’t think that of you. Altho it surprises me you sometimes vote R

 

[Rau]

The guidance of the church prioritizes abortion, euthanasia, etc

But leaves voting decisions as prudential judgements.

The first is a moral equivalence that makes no ethical distinctions between different kinds of issues involving human life and dignity. The direct and intentional destruction of innocent human life from the moment of conception until natural death is always wrong and is not just one issue among many. It must always be opposed
(Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship)

I’m sure all here concur.

 

[pnewton]

LeafByNiggle:

I do not support such arguments, even a little bit. I sometimes vote R

No, I didn’t think that of you. Altho it surprises me you sometimes vote R

We might be surprised at how people here actually vote. I vote Republican 90%, seldom do I vote for any Democrat except for a local race, and used to even support the RNC financially, pre-tea party.

I have had so many make false assumptions about me over Donald Trump. I will no doubt return to voting Republican for president after the RNC nominates someone else, though I am done with the RNC until they make room for moderation. I might even consider becoming a supportive Democrat if they would drop the hard-line abortion plank.

 

[phil3]

huh? how on this earth did you get that from my post?

But I would state that Marx would enjoy reading the CCC more than Thomas jefferson.

My point of the post was there are so many verbal qualifiers in the CCC that different people will understand it differently. People will see it the way their world view understand things.

 

[phil3]

When they nominate a neocon again.

 

[pnewton]

When they nominate a neocon again.

I ignore made up labels like that. It is straight out of 1984 where language is used to control thought, even when it is an obvious lie, like the term “neocon”. The true “neo” that is “new” is the tea party type, and Trump is a newer Republican. Even a rudimentary understanding of the history of politics in the Twentieth Century is needed to see that the newest Republican is the extremist, not the moderate. Reagan was able to work well with Democrats, and would be a neocon in today’s rhetoric.

No, the true neocon is Trump, if the word had any meaning other than gibberish newspeak.

 

[christofirst]

Those good social programs and public works projects rely on taxes, on all of us paying our fair share. If you’re expecting Bezos or Richie Rich to step up and make things better through their benevolent philanthropy or charity, things will never improve. You have to levy taxes because people too often find an excuse when it comes to charity. You yourself know how people gripe about taxes. Now imagine if you didn’t have to pay. There’d always be something else to do with the money.