How could a moral God allow suffering?

[LaMBS]

I have to admit…that is one of the most inventive excuses for the slaughter of children I have ever heard. How do you think that god would have fared at Nuremberg?

If the western societies based on Judeo-Christian principals had not developed to the point they did through the interaction of God with His creation there would have been no Nuremburg, hence this is a moot point. The actions of God occur under His infinite wisdom; the actions of men under are undertaken through varying degrees of ignorance. Man does not know the purpose for which God created another being and it is not for man to know the time of his own or anyone else’s departure from this mortal coil. Someone whose view of death is annihilation cannot understand that physical death is sometimes a better option than earthly life. The death of one person in the state of mortal sin is a worse fate than the death of any number of truly innocent people when viewed from the eternal perspective.

The trials at Nuremburg were to judge whether the men who took the lives of other men were justified in so doing. No man has sufficient understanding of God’s purpose for other individuals or the immortal state of others to determine whether it is the proper time for them to move on to the next phase of their eternal lives. God does have this knowledge and He alone has the right to determine when each of us should die our physical death. I won’t go into the trials at Nuremburg much further because they were largely a debate between the Judeo-Christian creationist view of man and the Darwinist atheistic view of evolution solely through natural selection; which I understand is a taboo topic on this site.

At any rate, to evaluate God’s actions through the sensibilities at Nuremburg is merely a shift in judging God’s actions throughout salvation history from today to the late 1940s. We are not qualified to judge God’s actions; we must try to interpret the message He intends to convey through them. Those actions occurred at a particular time to influence what was happening at that time.

This is not a relativistic argument for God’s morality. God has perfect knowledge of each person’s purpose and immortal state; He has perfect knowledge of His plan for His entire creation and He has a right to do as He pleases with His creation. His will and His actions can only be the absolute best for all of His creation otherwise He would not be the omnipotent God He is. Holy Scripture is a message to guide us into complete union with God. We do not read it to judge whether He was right in what He did – we accept that He was right and we try to understand what He needs us to understand from the actions He took at the time He took them. We do not say, “Well God killed the first-born of the Egyptians so it must be right to kill first-borns.” We do not even suggest that it must have been right for anyone to kill first-borns at that time but now it’s not. We rather say that God created the first-borns that were killed during the Passover for that purpose, He knows why He did it, He had the right to do it and He knows their fate. We do not understand all of the eternal implications of it; t is not something we would ever have the right to do, it is not something we can ever completely understand this side of eternity but there is something we need to learn from it.

 

[oldcelt]

If the western societies based on Judeo-Christian principals had not developed to the point they did through the interaction of God with His creation there would have been no Nuremburg, hence this is a moot point. The actions of God occur under His infinite wisdom; the actions of men under are undertaken through varying degrees of ignorance. Man does not know the purpose for which God created another being and it is not for man to know the time of his own or anyone else’s departure from this mortal coil. Someone whose view of death is annihilation cannot understand that physical death is sometimes a better option than earthly life. The death of one person in the state of mortal sin is a worse fate than the death of any number of truly innocent people when viewed from the eternal perspective.

The trials at Nuremburg were to judge whether the men who took the lives of other men were justified in so doing. No man has sufficient understanding of God’s purpose for other individuals or the immortal state of others to determine whether it is the proper time for them to move on to the next phase of their eternal lives. God does have this knowledge and He alone has the right to determine when each of us should die our physical death. I won’t go into the trials at Nuremburg much further because they were largely a debate between the Judeo-Christian creationist view of man and the Darwinist atheistic view of evolution solely through natural selection; which I understand is a taboo topic on this site.

At any rate, to evaluate God’s actions through the sensibilities at Nuremburg is merely a shift in judging God’s actions throughout salvation history from today to the late 1940s. We are not qualified to judge God’s actions; we must try to interpret the message He intends to convey through them. Those actions occurred at a particular time to influence what was happening at that time.

This is not a relativistic argument for God’s morality. God has perfect knowledge of each person’s purpose and immortal state; He has perfect knowledge of His plan for His entire creation and He has a right to do as He pleases with His creation. His will and His actions can only be the absolute best for all of His creation otherwise He would not be the omnipotent God He is. Holy Scripture is a message to guide us into complete union with God. We do not read it to judge whether He was right in what He did – we accept that He was right and we try to understand what He needs us to understand from the actions He took at the time He took them. We do not say, “Well God killed the first-born of the Egyptians so it must be right to kill first-borns.” We do not even suggest that it must have been right for anyone to kill first-borns at that time but now it’s not. We rather say that God created the first-borns that were killed during the Passover for that purpose, He knows why He did it, He had the right to do it and He knows their fate. We do not understand all of the eternal implications of it; t is not something we would ever have the right to do, it is not something we can ever completely understand this side of eternity but there is something we need to learn from it.

I’m sorry Lambs, but your response is just one lengthy list of rationalizations. In your mind, God is all good and loving to His creatures, despite the evidence of your own holy book. Saying that man cannot know the mind of God, and that is true, but either your book is true…or it is not.

 

[fred_conty]

I’m sorry Lambs, but your response is just one lengthy list of rationalizations. In your mind, God is all good and loving to His creatures, despite the evidence of your own holy book. Saying that man cannot know the mind of God, and that is true, but either your book is true…or it is not.

The events in our lives have a cascading effect, one thing causing another.

A man received a pair of skies for Christmas. That’s good because he can now go skiing.

But then he went skiing and broke his leg. That’s bad because now he can’t walk.

But then since he couldn’t walk, that’s good since he didn’t get killed walking to work crossing a bridge he uses every morning which fell into the river.

But then that bridge was the only way to work. That’s bad since now he lost his job.

But then since he lost his job that’s good because he was offered a better one.

But then his new job wouldn’t pay his hospital bills and that’s bad since it was for
$100,000.

But then losing the money saved his life since it stopped his wife from murdering him and that was good.

And so on.

Who really knows in the end, except God, what is good and bad for anyone.
What may look good is bad and what looks bad may turn out for the better.
Especially when talking about salvation.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[tonyrey]

I agree. You need to take it up with Amandil.

The extent to which we agree is surprising!

 

[oldcelt]

The events in our lives have a cascading effect, one thing causing another.

A man received a pair of skies for Christmas. That’s good because he can now go skiing.

But then he went skiing and broke his leg. That’s bad because now he can’t walk.

But then since he couldn’t walk, that’s good since he didn’t get killed walking to work crossing a bridge he uses every morning which fell into the river.

But then that bridge was the only way to work. That’s bad since now he lost his job.

But then since he lost his job that’s good because he was offered a better one.

But then his new job wouldn’t pay his hospital bills and that’s bad since it was for
$100,000.

But then losing the money saved his life since it stopped his wife from murdering him and that was good.

And so on.

Who really knows in the end, except God, what is good and bad for anyone.
What may look good is bad and what looks bad may turn out for the better.
Especially when talking about salvation.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

We were discussing the long lists of slaughter, murders and death either ordered by or performed personally by the Christian God in the OT. People that He would have created with absolute foreknowledge.

 

[Amandil]

We were discussing the long lists of slaughter, murders and death either ordered by or performed personally by the Christian God for in the OT. People that He would have created with absolute foreknowledge.

Any God, whether it be the true God, or your vague and hazy deistic one, takes any person at any time, and creates them with the foreknowledge that they will die.

You can argue all you like about your “clockmaker” god and how he’s “not involved” but the fact is by even creating one human he created them to die, thus he is no less responsible for the deaths of all humans, no matter how badly you try to wash his hands of it.

In the same vein then he is no less responsible, according to your logic, when humans kill other humans.

 

[tonyrey]

We were discussing the long lists of slaughter, murders and death either ordered by or performed personally by the Christian God in the OT. People that He would have created with absolute foreknowledge.

By Yahweh, the national god of the Iron Age kingdoms of Israel and Judah, not the Christian God! There is a vast difference which misrepresents the teaching of Jesus…

 

[Bradski]

In the same vein then he is no less responsible, according to your logic, when humans kill other humans.

Moses: Let my people go.
Pharaoh: Nope.
Moses: OK, just for that I’m going to kill all your children (sounds of mothers screaming in the background).

Apparently that’s bad.

God: Let my people go.
Pharaoh: Nope.
God: OK, just for that I’m going to kill all your children (sounds of mothers screaming in the background).

Apparently that’s OK.

 

[Bradski]

Any God, whether it be the true God…

or…

…the national god of the Iron Age kingdoms of Israel and Judah, not the Christian God! There is a vast difference which misrepresents the teaching of Jesus…

C’mon boys. Sort this out!

 

[oldcelt]

By Yahweh, the national god of the Iron Age kingdoms of Israel and Judah, not the Christian God! There is a vast difference which misrepresents the teaching of Jesus…

I see, there is another god in the OT. Gee, I thought that was a heresy.

 

[Amandil]

Moses: Let my people go.
Pharaoh: Nope.
Moses: OK, just for that I’m going to kill all your children (sounds of mothers screaming in the background).

Apparently that’s bad.

God: Let my people go.
Pharaoh: Nope.
God: OK, just for that I’m going to kill all your children (sounds of mothers screaming in the background).

Apparently that’s OK.

Utterly disengenuous.

 

[Aloysium]

:twocents:

All, a few innocents and the rest of us, will die.
This exposes the nature of life on earth, with its ups and downs, as essentially a vale of tears. There is no escape from suffering.
However, what suffering does very well is to bring one to the heart of reality. When it really hurts, there is no denying it. It is as real as real gets.
It is quite amazing that what is just another sensation or feeling, can be so bad!
Detached observation of the other in pain reveals certain reflexes and even very complex behaviors, but to that other - ouch!.

Pain is real and intrinsic to human nature.
This reality is a basis of every religious belief system, all of which provide an understanding of the cause and cure for this problem.
For Christians, the cause is sin and the cure is Christ.
The suffering we endure in this world is a consequence of the broken filial relationship with God who has from the beginning sought to free us from the bondage of sin and death.
This has been accomplished in time through the obedience of His Son - the Word.

The Word,
through which all creation has come into being,
reveals Himself in scripture and has been made flesh in Jesus Christ,
who took on all sin, all suffering, died and was resurrected
that we might resume our rightful place in heaven as God’s children.

In the fullness of the Trinity, God is Love. It is through this love that all this has come into being. His Being is Love, and that Love is Beauty and Truth.

Sitting silently with thoughts, feelings and sensations, they are.
They are a manifestation of our being,
reflecting God’s infinite Being.
Being, synonymous with Compassion.
We are known and loved, each unique, individual expression of humanity.
His Compassion stretches out into every nook and corner,
into every time that has and will exist.
We exist, embraced by the Sacred Heart of Jesus.

The Word became flesh to redeem us and to establish His Holy Church that all might know God.
In the historical figure of Jesus Christ, God reaches out to humanity and we to Him.
In this light, we can make sense of these difficult parts of scripture:
Clearly, we are to destroy all sin within us (men, women and children of the enemy); there is no small sin because it will grow and destroy us.
Before the incarnation, how were warriors to understand the greatness of God but as the supreme conquerer that He is.
It’s a no-brainer really to those with faith.
Those in whom it is lacking, the pieces will not fit together and what is obvious seems convoluted and manufactured.

If one wants to know the truth, to grow in love, ask and it will be given.

 

[oldcelt]

:twocents:

All, a few innocents and the rest of us, will die.
This exposes the nature of life on earth, with its ups and downs, as essentially a vale of tears. There is no escape from suffering.
However, what suffering does very well is to bring one to the heart of reality. When it really hurts, there is no denying it. It is as real as real gets.
It is quite amazing that what is just another sensation or feeling, can be so bad!
Detached observation of the other in pain reveals certain reflexes and even very complex behaviors, but to that other - ouch!.

Pain is real and intrinsic to human nature.
This reality is a basis of every religious belief system, all of which provide an understanding of the cause and cure for this problem.
For Christians, the cause is sin and the cure is Christ.
The suffering we endure in this world is a consequence of the broken filial relationship with God who has from the beginning sought to free us from the bondage of sin and death.
This has been accomplished in time through the obedience of His Son - the Word.

The Word,
through which all creation has come into being,
reveals Himself in scripture and has been made flesh in Jesus Christ,
who took on all sin, all suffering, died and was resurrected
that we might resume our rightful place in heaven as God’s children.

In the fullness of the Trinity, God is Love. It is through this love that all this has come into being. His Being is Love, and that Love is Beauty and Truth.

Sitting silently with thoughts, feelings and sensations, they are.
They are a manifestation of our being,
reflecting God’s infinite Being.
Being, synonymous with Compassion.
We are known and loved, each unique, individual expression of humanity.
His Compassion stretches out into every nook and corner,
into every time that has and will exist.
We exist, embraced by the Sacred Heart of Jesus.

The Word became flesh to redeem us and to establish His Holy Church that all might know God.
In the historical figure of Jesus Christ, God reaches out to humanity and we to Him.
In this light, we can make sense of these difficult parts of scripture:
Clearly, we are to destroy all sin within us (men, women and children of the enemy); there is no small sin because it will grow and destroy us.
Before the incarnation, how were warriors to understand the greatness of God but as the supreme conquerer that He is.
It’s a no-brainer really to those with faith.
Those in whom it is lacking, the pieces will not fit together and what is obvious seems convoluted and manufactured.

If one wants to know the truth, to grow in love, ask and it will be given.

Curious how your (general term) own beliefs are always so simple to understand, even when the obvious contradictions and flaws are pointed out. Massacres become acts of love, children dying at four months of age are great acts of mercy, an all knowing god is guiltless when one of his foreknown creation turns rogue and so on.

It isn’t a “no-brainer,” and those who question are not fools. Maybe, under the Christian system, we have been sent to correct some error in judgement regarding the true nature of God. In your second line, you are speaking reality.

 

[Amandil]

-]/-]

Curious how your (general term) own beliefs are always so simple to understand, even when the obvious contradictions and flaws are pointed out. Massacres become acts of love, children dying at four months of age are great acts of mercy, an all knowing god is guiltless when one of his foreknown creation turns rogue and so on.

It isn’t a “no-brainer,” and those who question are not fools. Maybe, under the Christian system, we have been sent to correct some error in judgement regarding the true nature of God. In your second line, you are speaking reality.

It’s because we have not trapped ourselves in the myopic view of merely temporary existence.

Physical life is only temporary, spiritual life is eternal.

Therefore physical death is also only temporary, and spiritual death is eternal.

If physical death happens to prevent spiritual death, that is by definition a mercy.

And if the physical death of a child leads not only to eternal life of those children but also the possibility of repentance of their parents and thus their salvation as well, then that is even a greater mercy.

But will you “get” this?..

 

[LaMBS]

I’m sorry Lambs, but your response is just one lengthy list of rationalizations. In your mind, God is all good and loving to His creatures, despite the evidence of your own holy book. Saying that man cannot know the mind of God, and that is true, but either your book is true…or it is not.

“How could a moral God allow suffering” is a request for a rationalization. There can be no proof of why God does what God does; He is the creator and master of all, His purposes are known only to Him, He tells us what we need to know and we are free to listen and accept or to ignore and refuse. What true Christians do not understand they simply accept, knowing that it is in everyone’s best interest to do so. Jesus, I trust in You.

 

[ajecphotos]

Faith. It all boils down to faith.

I have faith in God. In Jesus. I dont need to see to believe. I dont need proof.

My love of God is from deep within my soul, my heart. I believe in God and whatever he has planned for us then so may it be. I would give my life for God.

As far as i am concerned the words spoken by Jesus are true and Holy and i believe he is the son of God. God being our creator can do what he wants just like we as gardeners can pull up anything that is not growing right in our gardens!

 

[rinnie]

I see no evidence of that God.

Really? You have never seen a Parent sacrifice for their Child.
You never saw a neighbor helping a neighbor.
You never had the Love of a Parent, child, cousin, uncle, aunt.

You never seen a Child brought into this world? Seen the innocence of a Child and complete trust it has in other humans.

Sad, only a few evidences of God!

And you never heard of the Love of God who came down from heaven, was crucified, buried and rose on the 3rd day for the forgiveness of your sins and mine.

Sad just so sad, that you have never seen Love.

By the way as far as the story of Moses. The reason was t fulfill the Prophecy of Exodus 4:23.

God is patient and gave many warnings, and although every time he promised to do as asked, he refused to keep his word 9 times.

It is a lesson. People think I can refuse God, do what I want, and if he does exist he will not deny me, but I can deny him all I want.

If he is this merciful God they claim, he will not send me to hell, if there is a hell.

It does not work that way. God said if you deny me, I will deny you…

Its a choice people, if you want God you will want him now in this world. If you deny him here you will deny him in the next also.

As Jesus told the Jews that rejected him, you are not of me. if you were of me you would listen to me and what I say. My Father is not your Father or you would hear and obey my words.

If the God the Father in heaven is your Father, you will obey him, and follow the Son of God and do as he has taught.

If not, you don’t want him and as God said, you have free will to do so. But unless you come through the Son you will not enter into heaven with the Father.

 

[rinnie]

Curious how your (general term) own beliefs are always so simple to understand, even when the obvious contradictions and flaws are pointed out. Massacres become acts of love, children dying at four months of age are great acts of mercy, an all knowing god is guiltless when one of his foreknown creation turns rogue and so on.

It isn’t a “no-brainer,” and those who question are not fools. Maybe, under the Christian system, we have been sent to correct some error in judgement regarding the true nature of God. In your second line, you are speaking reality.

Do you really believe that Christians are going to accept your correction that our God has error in Judgement?

You really believe you have this Power to Judge the Lord Almighty, creator of heaven and earth??

I truly don’t know rather to laugh or cry!`1

I Think its best to leave it at James 4:12 There is ONE Lawgiver and judge who is able to save or destroy. Who then are YOU to judge your neighbor?

 

[oldcelt]

Do you really believe that Christians are going to accept your correction that our God has error in Judgement?

You really believe you have this Power to Judge the Lord Almighty, creator of heaven and earth??

I truly don’t know rather to laugh or cry!`1

I Think its best to leave it at James 4:12 There is ONE Lawgiver and judge who is able to save or destroy. Who then are YOU to judge your neighbor?

No, I rather suspect that most won’t and since I don’t believe that the god described in the bible is the creator, I do so without fear of retribution.
My God is truly a creator and not a micromanager who creates to destroy. He allows his creation true freedom to find their way. Many here find that to be impersonal and uncaring. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe it is that the God of Deism treats us as the adults that we are and leaves us to raise the young as best we can.

 

[tonyrey]

Faith. It all boils down to faith.

I have faith in God. In Jesus. I dont need to see to believe. I dont need proof.

My love of God is from deep within my soul, my heart. I believe in God and whatever he has planned for us then so may it be. I would give my life for God.

As far as i am concerned the words spoken by Jesus are true and Holy and i believe he is the son of God. God being our creator can do what he wants just like we as gardeners can pull up anything that is not growing right in our gardens!

Might is not right. God imposes obligations on Himself when He creates us. A loving Father does not reject or neglect His children.

And, most astonishing of all, by giving us free will He curtails His own freedom!