How did Islam get so popular?

[SalamKhan]

I know, that’s why I avoided attempting to discuss anything with these people. I’ve heard their vitriol so many times, it bores me, so I thought I’d lighten up the mood a little.

As a Muslim, I’d like to thank you for putting up with them the way you did, even though as an atheist you owe nothing to Islam or Muslims. You have a lot more integrity than many people here.

I think the problem with most conservative Christians is, they act as if their religion started in the 20th century, specifically in the Western world. Any talk of another century or culture & they’ll immediately get lost.

 

[niceatheist]

As much as possible I like to discard prejudices, particularly my own. I certainly grew up being taught that the Muslims were bloodthirsty conquerors, killing Christians and forcing the rest to convert at the point of a sword. It was my studies into the history of Europe and the Roman and post-Roman world that quickly informed me that a lot of what was written about the Muslim conquests was largely based myth and, particularly in the Crusade era, out and out propaganda.

The reality of Medieval and Classical invasions is sadly much more mundane. Part of it is that the wars we are largely familiar with, beginning with the US Civil War (what I’d consider the first industrial war) are so very different from how wars were fought before the mid-19th century.
Can one really imagine the invading forces of Amr ibn al-'As, the Rashidun general who conquered Egypt, performing mass forced conversions with an army of just 4,000 men? His job wasn’t to go around slaughtering Christians or making millions of Egyptians into Muslims. His job was to beat a Byzantine Army. He was no different than William the Conqueror five hundred years later, who bested Harold II at Hastings (and actually William probably had an army twice as large as Amr’s).

For the most part, other than the unfortunate raping and pillaging that undisciplined armies often partook of in the Classical and Medieval age, the conqueror walked in, deposed or killed the aristocracy and nobility, or if he was wiser, kept at least some of the round, but for the common man, it was just a new banner on the castle walls. War in those times was nothing like the mechanized war of the last 150 years, and whether you were a Christian, an Arab or a Turk, it was pretty much down to marching soldiers hundreds or thousands of miles, meeting the enemy, using land-based tactics, and the army still standing after a few days was the victor of the battle.

Now if you want to talk about about brutality, the Mongol Invasions are the things to see. The death tolls in those cases were astronomical compared to warfare before them.

 

[Cornwallus]

Islam has become popular in the secular world as it seems to be the one religion the leftists won’t attack or portray negatively in the media. There is a sympathetic almost attractive view the media has put on Islam.

Richard Dawkins has been banned from speaking at certain college campuses because his attacks on religion includes Islam. Dawkins has stated that he is under pressure to not include Islam in his talks but Christianity is free game. Even he thinks that’s not right.

 

[niceatheist]

Islam has become popular in the secular world as it seems to be the one religion the leftists won’t attack or portray negatively in the media. There is a sympathetic almost attractive view the media has put on Islam.

Richard Dawkins has been banned from speaking at certain college campuses because his attacks on religion includes Islam. Dawkins has stated that he is under pressure to not include Islam in his talks but Christianity is free game. Even he thinks that’s not right.

How is clarifying the historical record on Islam’s spread in any way mean that Islam is popular. As this conversation so ably demonstrates, there is a significant amount of ignorance as to how the Islamic invasions occurred, and what they meant for the local populations, at least in the immediate aftermath of the invasion.

I’m not defending the invasions any more than I would defend the Persecution of the Pagans under the Christian Roman Emperors a few centuries before. In both cases a new religion came along, gained dominance, and used force of arms to spread its influence. But Islam was, at least in the initial conquests, a lot friendlier to religious minorities than the Roman Empire and the Eastern and Western Churches were in their turn, so I think people here who seem to have such a fear and loathing of Islam need to ask themselves if they have justification for the kinds of sentiments that are so often spewed here.

If Christian Copts and Syriac Christians could live for centuries under Arab and then later Ottoman rule, how can there be, for instance, some fundamental incompatibility between Islam and Western civilization?

 

[Cornwallus]

I am not arguing the fact against the historical record about the spread of Islam. I am simply offering my opinion to the question of how did Islam get so popular recently in the western world, not historically world wide.

The modern western media has helped cultivate that popularity with a positive portrayal of Islam as compared to Christianity. An attack on the Islam religion is now portrayed as racist - that’s the narrative. An attack on Christianity is not racist. See the how that works? I would argue the only accepted prejudice in the media for a major religion is Christianity, specifically Catholic Christians.

To simply summarize. Islam is cool, new, hip, and unique to this western culture where Christianity is now the enemy and Islam has come to the rescue.

 

[thistle]

A generalization. One that is only true in certain countries. I’ve known apostate Muslims here in the US who ironically became Catholic. They were neither disowned nor harmed by their families.

It is true in Muslim countries.

 

[Neithan]

If Christian Copts and Syriac Christians could live for centuries under Arab and then later Ottoman rule, how can there be, for instance, some fundamental incompatibility between Islam and Western civilization?

That’s a good point. There is even a document attributed to Muhammad where he promises protection for Christians. That Islamic teaching to protect the “People of the Book” has deteriorated over the past century since the end of the Ottoman Caliphate (which also committed genocide against Christians in its final years so, pretty much abandoned its mandate at that point). There’s another argument for the importance of a central teaching authority to keep a religion from disintegrating.

 

[Neithan]

Do you see providence in this? I sure do. Islam is a moralizing influence, and God brings good out of evil. I also believe that God made a covenant with Ishmael (Gen 17:20) and his descendants, though that’s just my own opinion and theological speculation.

 

[Salibi]

As @niceatheist said above, it is Arab nationalism that is the principal culprit for the persecution of Christians in the Middle East.

Another culprit is Arab culture. Arab culture is in fact so closely tied with Islam that it’s difficult to figure out where one ends and where the other begins. As a consequence, it became difficult for a non-Muslim group to exist as “Arab”, (whereas previously, before the coming of Muhammad, we had Arab Christian and Arab Jewish tribes), so when the Ottoman Empire finally fell and out arose Arab nationalism, the Christians of the Middle East basically said “no, thank you” to the newly created Arab states and instead demanded to be ruled by Europe (namely France for us Maronites). The result of these demands was Lebanon, a country that is geographically part of Syria but was hewn out by the French to serve as the homeland for Middle Eastern Christians. Lebanon remains to this day the only majority Catholic Middle Eastern country, and the only Middle Eastern country to have a law mandating that the President be a Catholic.

 

[Neithan]

Arabs did not perpetrate the genocide in Turkey though. It was motivated by ethno-nationalism more than religion — but religion (or anti-religion) gets mixed in with it and becomes a powerful justification. Islam does not have any separation between political and religious authority which makes it easier to use it to justify political or cultural conflict.

 

[Salibi]

Of course. But what I was talking about were the reasons why Christians are viewed with suspicion/ persecuted in Middle East today.

 

[Neithan]

Yeah that complete fusion of Islam with Arabism is an enormous challenge for Christianity there. The “Arab Spring” demonstrated that. It’s like a regression to the ancient world where religion and culture were essentially the same thing (similar to India and Hinduism).

 

[Jim-Eustachius]

Muhammad Ali? Mike Tyson?

Naturally my only source of celebrities are boxers.

 

[Salibi]

Precisely. And if you do not belong to the religion, you do not belong to the people. And if you do not belong to the people, you do not belong on the land- which is why some Arabs would like to see all Christians leave the Middle East, even though we’ve been here for centuries before them.

 

[Niblo]

Actually, according to one Saudi Arabian preacher I had the displeasure of listening to, the Koran tells of rivers of wine in Heaven for faithful Muslim believers. @Niblo, is this correct?

The Qur’an refers to Heaven as ‘al-janna’, meaning ‘the garden’. It is the home of the righteous; the home of Peace.

Professor M.A.S. Abdel Haleem writes:

‘The Qur’an clearly states that the descriptions that are given of janna are given as mathal (13:35; and 47:15), which the translators have rendered as ‘parable’, ‘similitude’ or ‘likeness’ – in other words, specific representations of things that belong to this world but are used to refer to the next.

‘Full knowledge of the real nature of the rewards of the righteous, the Qur’an says, ‘is kept hidden’, it has not been given to any human. The same verbal form is used in Arabic to negate such knowledge – la ta‘lamu – applies to the present and to the future: fa lā ta‘lamu nafsun mā ‘ukhfiya lahum min qurrati a‘yūnin’ (No soul knows what joy is laid up for them secretly as a reward for what they were doing.)

‘The popular conception of paradise in the Qur’an (based perhaps on an exaggeration of this physical picture) is that it is the abode of sensual pleasure par excellence; but examination of actual descriptions in the Qur’an gives quite a different picture.

‘The inhabitants of janna are not seen to indulge in sensual pleasures; material rewards are seen to be symbolic of honouring; material rewards are actually outnumbered by moral and spiritual rewards; and material rewards are also outranked by these non-material ones.

‘Although food is provided, throughout the Qur’an the dwellers in paradise are not usually seen actually eating. Four items of food are mentioned: flesh of fowl twice, fruits twelve times, and pure honey and milk once. They are invited to ‘eat and drink’ but this invitation is made only three times out of the twenty-seven where this expression is used in the Qur’an; the rest of the references are to do with this world. In any case, eating and drinking in the garden is not for the protection of life or health, as God has given the inhabitants bodies that do not deteriorate. The meat and fruit available in paradise (described as being ‘ any fruit they want; the meat of any bird they like ’ (56:20-1) are offered as a token of honour (37:42).’ (‘Understanding the Qur’an – Themes and Style’).

 

[Niblo]

And an ever virgin that’s just there to be bedded? Yep, a prostitute.

Professor M.A.S. Abdel Haleem continues:

‘There is no overt mention in the Qur’an of sex taking place between spouses in janna, although the relationship is lawful between spouses and the Qur’an does not shy away from mentioning it in the context of this world. The mutual love (‘uruban) between spouses in the garden (56:37–8) epitomises the most fulfilling aspect of the relationship between spouses as expressed in the Qur’an: Another of His signs is that He created spouses from among yourselves for you to live with in tranquillity: He ordained love and kindness between you. (30:21).

‘No discomfort or ill health will result from eating and drinking there. The drink is pure. It neither dulls their senses nor causes intoxication (37:47); it causes no headaches (56:19); it is ‘ a cup which does not lead to any idle talk or sin ’ (52:23).

‘In these pleasing surroundings stand ‘ good, peaceful homes ’ (9:72) with ‘ lofty dwellings built for them, one above the other, graced with flowing streams ’ (39:20). There are detailed descriptions of these goodly dwellings (e.g. 55:52–72; 56:15–34; and 88:13–16) – raised couches upholstered in brocade, goblets placed ready, cushions arranged and carpets outspread. We see the dwellers in pleasant company: ‘ they will enter perpetual gardens, along with their righteous ancestors, spouses, and descendants ’ (13:23; and 52:20–1) adorned in green silk. They sit on couches in a relaxed manner, engaged in pleasant conversation, recalling happy memories, absorbed in rejoicing; their faces shining, laughing and joyous (80:38–9)’. (‘Understanding the Qur’an – Themes and Style’).

In short: No prostitution, and no rivers of wine! Oh, and Heaven is not confined to us Muslims.

Have a great day!

 

[LawyersGunsAndMoney]

In answer to the threads question, probably because Niblo is so consistently friendly and patient.

 

[Niblo]

In answer to the threads question, probably because Niblo is so consistently friendly and patient.

You’re in the Will!

But thank you.

PS: Shhhhh…don’t let on, but my wife bought me a t-shirt with the words ‘GRUMPY OLD MAN’ written on it…I can’t imagine why!

 

[Salibi]

Thanks Niblo, I’m going to share these with a couple of Muslims I know who definitely do believe that they are going to enjoy such sensual pleasures in Heaven. We’re so lucky to have someone as informed in the Muslim faith as you. Peace.

EDIT: I should add that most of my knowledge of Islam comes from Saudi Arabian preachers and acquaintances, and I understand that many consider the literalist interpretations of Wahabbi Islam to be less than orthodox. I see now that this indeed the case.

 

[Niblo]

Thanks Niblo, I’m going to share these with a couple of Muslims I know who definitely do believe that they are going to enjoy such sensual pleasures in Heaven. We’re so lucky to have someone as informed in the Muslim faith as you. Peace.

Hi Salibi.

You’re very kind. But make no mistake, credit is due to my books, and to the scholars who wrote them. I share their knowledge, and their wisdom, that is all.

May God bless you, and your family…and bring all to Himself.