How did you react when same sex marriage became legal?

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So you think that morality is relative to your religious beliefs? That some things are wrong for you but perfectly acceptable for me?

That’s an interesting position.
Depends if you are Catholic.

I have found that non-religious people have little concept of morals. So as not to be one who “forces” his morals on others…I simply leave them be.

Yes. there are things that would be wrong for me but OK for you. (Morally speaking)

I can’t eat meat on Fridays during Lent. You can.

Suppose a couple with no exposure to Catholic teaching decide to shack-up. They have no morals. Who am I to say that they are morally wrong?

When it comes to right and wrong, that is different. Take our same sex marriage discussion for example. I don’t need the Catholic church to tell me that SSM is wrong. I know it is wrong. This is why I argue from a secular position rather than bring religious teachings into the discussion. People who support SSM are like the uninformed couple who shack-up, They have no morals and could care less about the convictions of Catholics. To include morality…is a waste of time.
 
I would stay away from this argument as a defense. STD and AIDS transmission is lowest in the lesbian community (even lower than among heterosexuals) yet we still do not accept lesbianism in the church community.
Yes, that is true. I am aware of lower rates of disease spread among lesbians.
Based on that, would you recommend a lesbian relationship to a young girl because it is a “safer” relationship than an opposite sex relationship?

But is it REALLY safe? Lesbian couples may enjoy freedom of fear of STDs but they have a higher rate of alcohol and drug abuse, a higher suicide rate and lower life expectancy than their heterosexual sisters.
 
Even with a divorce rate as low as 20%, it means something else has a bigger effect on the breaking up of traditional marriage than SSM. The question is even if SSM was made illegal today, in all states and countries, would we see a significant improvement in traditional marriages and less single parent families? I am not so sure we would.
What makes you think SSM will cause a breakup of traditional marriages?
 
Yes, that is true. I am aware of lower rates of disease spread among lesbians.
Based on that, would you recommend a lesbian relationship to a young girl because it is a “safer” relationship than an opposite sex relationship?

But is it REALLY safe? Lesbian couples may enjoy freedom of fear of STDs but they have a higher rate of alcohol and drug abuse, a higher suicide rate and lower life expectancy than their heterosexual sisters.
That’s the point I am making. You seemed to be using low rates of STD as a reason for not being in a SS relationship. And I was asking is that really a compelling reason to oppose SSM? Then what if the statement you made is not true (as in the case of lesbians) does that not make the reasoning invalid?
 
I have found that non-religious people have little concept of morals.
How utterly condescending.
So as not to be one who “forces” his morals on others…I simply leave them be.
Would that you’d take your own advice. Although we are not talking about forcing your morality on anyone else. We are checking to see if you think other people’s actions, from a moral perspective, could be wrong for you and OK for them. And we seem to have a decision on that:
There are things that would be wrong for me but OK for you. (Morally speaking).
I think that that is quite clear enough.
Suppose a couple with no exposure to Catholic teaching decide to shack-up. They have no morals. Who am I to say that they are morally wrong?
You’re a Catholic. Your church teaches you that it is morally wrong. I can’t recall the Pope every saying that contraception, or sex outside marriage or any number of scenarios that the church says are immoral only apply to Catholics. Is there a preamble in the Catechism that says ‘Note: The following is only applicable to those of the Catholic faith’? If the Pope is asked about the morality of people having pre-marital sex, does he shrug his shoulders and say: ‘Hey, as Zoltan said, as long as they’re not Catholic who am I to say they are morally wrong’.
When it comes to right and wrong, that is different.
Questions of right and wrong are different to questions of morality? I think the hole you’re in is deep enough. You should stop digging.
This is why I argue from a secular position rather than bring religious teachings into the discussion.
And this gets to the crux of the matter. It’s an important point and I don’t think you’ve grasped it. If you argue from a religious point of view, then it concern you alone. Most people’s reaction to you saying: ‘As a Catholic, I say it is wrong’, would be to reply: ‘Well, as a Catholic, don’t do it – and keep your nose out of my business’. And also probably say exactly as you said above: ‘There are things that would be wrong for you but OK for me’. And of course, they would ask you to ask yourself the same question as you did earlier:
Who am I to say that they are morally wrong?
And if you argue from a secular viewpoint, then everyone can see how facile the arguments are (It’s harmful! They’ll get STDs! Look at the alcoholism!). Your concern for the well-being of gay people shines through in every post. It’s touching…

I say keep up the good work.
 
That’s the point I am making. You seemed to be using low rates of STD as a reason for not being in a SS relationship. And I was asking is that really a compelling reason to oppose SSM? Then what if the statement you made is not true (as in the case of lesbians) does that not make the reasoning invalid?
I am sorry you misunderstood. On the contrary… the rate of spread of STDs in the gay community is at EPIDEMIC levels. (CDC) Therefore by supporting SSM we are promoting a dangerous sexual practice that can effect all of society.

Originally I was not speaking about lesbians specifically. I know they are included in the “gay community” and their rates of STD infection and spread is considerably less…however as I mentioned they have their own set of physical and mental problems that should make such a life choice very unattractive.
 
How utterly condescending.
It is what it is…🤷
You’re a Catholic. Your church teaches you that it is morally wrong. I can’t recall the Pope every saying that contraception, or sex outside marriage or any number of scenarios that the church says are immoral only apply to Catholics. Is there a preamble in the Catechism that says ‘Note: The following is only applicable to those of the Catholic faith’? If the Pope is asked about the morality of people having pre-marital sex, does he shrug his shoulders and say: ‘Hey, as Zoltan said, as long as they’re not Catholic who am I to say they are morally wrong’.
True, the pope and the Catechism make no mention of morals pertaining exclusively to Catholics. But who else would be obligated to follow such teaching?

Do you feel obligated to attend Mass because the pope says so?
And this gets to the crux of the matter. It’s an important point and I don’t think you’ve grasped it. If you argue from a religious point of view, then it concern you alone. Most people’s reaction to you saying: ‘As a Catholic, I say it is wrong’, would be to reply: ‘Well, as a Catholic, don’t do it – and keep your nose out of my business’. And also probably say exactly as you said above: ‘There are things that would be wrong for you but OK for me’. And of course, they would ask you to ask yourself the same question as you did earlier:
Yes, this is the crux. What we are actually dealing with in this case is** TRUTH**

The Church’s teaching on homosexuality and marriage is “Catholic” because it is true, not true because it is Catholic.

Therefore I can rightfully state: “The conclusion that same-sex relationships should not be afforded legal status is based on the** truth,** not just on Catholic teaching.”

Yet, saying that makes this conclusion all the more controversial. If it were based simply on Catholic teaching, you could say, in a pluralistic context,: “You Catholics are entitled to your opinion, but that is not binding on others.”

In reality, truth is the reason that same-sex relationships should not be afforded legal status. Of course this is offensive to those who deny the existence of truth, who prefer to live in a world dominated by what Pope Benedict XVI termed a “dictatorship of relativism.”

So here is the crux…If you acknowledge that truth exists, then we can discuss and even argue about whether or not I, or the Catholic Church, correctly understands the truth of this matter. But if you deny that there is such a thing as truth, that is, the truth, not just my truth and your truth, then the matter becomes merely an exercise of raw political power in terms of who has more votes to impose an agenda, and that is what makes it ultimately tyrannical.
And if you argue from a secular viewpoint, then everyone can see how facile the arguments are (It’s harmful! They’ll get STDs! Look at the alcoholism!). Your concern for the well-being of gay people shines through in every post. It’s touching…
I say keep up the good work.
I detect a bit of sarcasm. But I will not take it that way. It seems like Zoltan, the resident homophobe, really is the only one on this forum who really cares for the well-being of gay people . I suppose it takes the experience of watching an old and very dear friend die an agonizing death due to AIDS…to see the utter stupidity of homosexual relations. I cannot fathom those who support, promote and sympathize with this choice.
 
I don’t think it will/does. At least based on the statistics it doesn’t seem that way.
Same sex relationships are recognized as marriage here in California. The gay guys who live down the street have not affected our marriage in the least. Of course I don’t recognize their relationship as a marriage. I would tell my children they are not really married. Only a man and woman can be married. They just think they are married…and that’s OK.
 
One thing is certain. All homosexuals that I know are the fruit of heterosexual unions. So that would mean that heterosexual unions are in some way defective?
 
I would agree on civil union for homosexuals.

If they want, they can copy and paste the marriage laws, modify it a little, and call it civil union law.

Just don’t use the term “marriage” for their union.

Marriage has thousands of years of precedence. Since the dawn of civilization, marriage is always between a man and a woman. There are variations like polygyny (like Abraham with two wives, Jacob has 4, Solomon has 1000, and still practiced by Muslims) and polyandry (practiced in certain places in Tibet).

However, there was never an instance of same sex marriage in the ancient times. There are certain same sex union, such as lover and beloved in ancient Greece, as well as the sacred band of Thebes, but they never refer to these unions as marriage.

The only known instances of same sex marriage involved two insane Roman emperors. In one case, he forced his lover to dress like a woman, and in the other case it was the emperor himself who dressed like a woman and refer to his self as his lover’s “wife”.
 
And how exactly has the Catholic Church demonstrated or put into action this fair and loving attitude toward gay people? The Church supported state constitutional amendments that outlawed not only marriage but any form of civil union or domestic partnership that would grant the rights you’re talking about. That seems to be all that this fair and loving attitude is…just talk.
Actually, it’s fair because bans on so-called gay “marriage” goes for straight people as well. That’s equality. 👍👍

It’s loving because we are helping people from sinning while protecting the interests of children and the overall economic health of the state.
 
Depends if you are Catholic.

I have found that non-religious people have little concept of morals. So as not to be one who “forces” his morals on others…I simply leave them be.

Yes. there are things that would be wrong for me but OK for you. (Morally speaking)

I can’t eat meat on Fridays during Lent. You can.

Suppose a couple with no exposure to Catholic teaching decide to shack-up. They have no morals. Who am I to say that they are morally wrong?

When it comes to right and wrong, that is different. Take our same sex marriage discussion for example. I don’t need the Catholic church to tell me that SSM is wrong. I know it is wrong. This is why I argue from a secular position rather than bring religious teachings into the discussion. People who support SSM are like the uninformed couple who shack-up, They have no morals and could care less about the convictions of Catholics. To include morality…is a waste of time.
I’m intrigued so let me ask you this: Zolton is now the earthling who is the Grand Poobah of morality for all other earthlings. How do you decide which human actions are worse than others, or all they all equal if they dont happen to agree with you? Are 30 year olds who are living together as evil as a gay person living with his partner? Is murder equated to divorce? Is racism worse than fornication?:eek:
 
I’m intrigued so let me ask you this: Zolton is now the earthling who is the Grand Poobah of morality for all other earthlings.

How do you decide which human actions are worse than others, or all they all equal if they dont happen to agree with you? Are 30 year olds who are living together as evil as a gay person living with his partner? Is murder equated to divorce? Is racism worse than fornication?:eek:
 
I’m intrigued so let me ask you this: Zolton is now the earthling who is the Grand Poobah of morality for all other earthlings.
That is not a question. It is a statement…and a false one at that. Zoltan has never claimed to be an “earthling”.

"What fools these mortals be." My favorite Shakespeare quote. ('Puck" from *Midsummer’s Night Dream *) Appropriate…yes 🙂
How do you decide which human actions are worse than others, or all they all equal if they dont happen to agree with you?
Not being a law maker or an attorney, or a cannon lawyer relieves me from from those decisions.

I find some actions to be evil, some to be wrong, and others acceptable.
Those are my morals…if you don’t like them, I have others.
 
Wow. OP here.

I left this forum for a while because of posts I find disturbing like people wanting to ban condoms for everyone, justifying putting Jewish people in ghettos as early as the 13 century, banning birth control for everyone, people prasing Putin, people wanting a homogenous Catholic state where other religions are only “tolerated” in a very condescending way, making pre-maritAl sex illegal for everyone, etc.

There are many high profile cases of opponents of legal SSM later found to be closet gays later, that is they are mostly men opposed to legal SSM (and actively work against it) later found with a male prostitute, etc. I suspect they are externalizing their internal struggles.
I wonder if that applies to some people here? It’s ok: it’s 2015 and you can come out of the closet.

Many religious communities have come to different nuanced understanding of what it means to be gay. For much of the american Jewish community (even " religous" Jews) including even some orthodox, legal SSM is actively encouraged. Catholic interpretations of “old testement” passages are of course irrevelant to us. Jews were very early active with Lgbt issues in our own communities (google keshet).

IMO the Catholic people on this forum who are so against legal civil SSM are not much different than the attidude of the Catholic Church back during the time of the crusades and inquisiton when the church wanted catholic homogeneity because it sees cultural/religous pluralism as something bad. I never saw it as bad, go head and blame my Jewishness.

I’ve also encountered angry comments on this board directed at Jews because we (even religous ones)are liberal and push some sort of agenda?

Isn’t make SSM illegal an infringement on the rights of religions that do recognize SSM?

My experience with this forum (not just this thread) leads me to think that Catholicism has totalitarian and facist tendencies.
 
Yes we are.

There exists no truly objective means of determining whether a person is gay or straight. One cannot take a blood test or DNA test to prove that he or she is “gay.” We must depend entirely upon a person’s claim that they are gay.
Seriously? You actually believe that some people do not experience same sex attraction? (nevermind the acting on it)
Are you SERIOUS?

Are you some 71 year old person living in some sort of conservative religious bubble?

I am graduate level trained in the biological sciences and work in a profession just one step down from diagnostic pathologists (basically, lab medicine doctors).

I can tell you that many, if not all traits of humans have multi-factorial. This means that multiple “genes” can be involved, including something called heterochromatin, the complex proteins that sit on
DNA and are subject. Some traits are a combintion of genetics and environment.

Maybe there really is no one cause of SSA.

The idea that one gene causes one"thing" is so antiquated it’s probably older than my great-grandparents.

I do not feel SSA, I am a 30 year old men sexual attraction to women. I didn’t “choose” to be sexually aroused by certain women, I just am that way.

By the way, “blood tests” are not an adequate way to assay DNA. “Blood” contains erythrocytes and various monocytes and it is difficult to amplify DNA via PCR from these cells.

Just as there is no one “cancer” gene there probably isn’t a “gay gene”. This is all obvious to me, I don’t know about you.
For example, numerous rearragements of the ALK and EGFR genes cause a certain subset of lung carcinomas.
 
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