How did you react when same sex marriage became legal?

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

It would certainly be convenient for you. Less than a fifth of Catholics think that divorce is wrong. That’s a lot of Catholics who don’t have a problem with it. pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/03/vatican-synod-on-family-highlights-discord-between-church-teachings-and-u-s-catholics-views-2/

The numbers of Catholics involved in divorce run to the many millions. catholicnewsagency.com/news/catholics-continue-to-have-lowest-divorce-rates-report-finds/

Maybe you should spend some time and effort where it may do the most good. That would be in-house, amongst other Catholics.

I am familiar with that Pew Research poll. They only questioned 337 Catholics (Hardly a true sample) and gave it an accuracy level of plus or minus 6.5% points.

The actual question they asked was: “Do you personally believe that…getting a divorce is morally acceptable, morally wrong, or is it not a moral issue? (If Necessary, ask And is…getting a divorce morally acceptable, morally wrong, or is it not a moral issue?”

No mention of Church teaching or of a religious standpoint. (?)

If that question began with the words “As a Catholic do you personally believe that…?” the percentages would be reversed.

In short, I place little significance on that particular Pew poll.

But what’s the real point? Are you saying that because the divorce rate is high, the Catholic Church should accept same sex couples as “married”?

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Not true.Heterosexual means attracted to the opposite sex.

So what is the physical difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals?

 

[AyJSimon]

So what is the physical difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals?

Heterosexuals are really just gay people who are attracted to the opposite sex.

 

[QuestLove]

I think we should leave divorce out of this equation…until we get some statistics about the divorce rates among same sex marriages.

I was not comparing divorce rates between traditional marriage and same sex marriage, because as you correctly stated we do not have any statistics of the the latter.

 

[Caldey]

I am not at all happy with same sex marriages. Goes against everything i belive.

 

[kozlosap]

I am familiar with that Pew Research poll. They only questioned 337 Catholics (Hardly a true sample) and gave it an accuracy level of plus or minus 6.5% points.

The actual question they asked was: “Do you personally believe that…getting a divorce is morally acceptable, morally wrong, or is it not a moral issue? (If Necessary, ask And is…getting a divorce morally acceptable, morally wrong, or is it not a moral issue?”

No mention of Church teaching or of a religious standpoint. (?)

If that question began with the words “As a Catholic do you personally believe that…?” the percentages would be reversed.

In short, I place little significance on that particular Pew poll.

But what’s the real point? Are you saying that because the divorce rate is high, the Catholic Church should accept same sex couples as “married”?

If you agree that Pew is a very well respected polling service, but only accept Pew results that rubberstamp your own views on the LGBTQ issues, then you have put a literal end to debate with others. We are all born with the ability to reason, love and hate. We are not all born straight.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

We are all born with the ability to reason, love and hate. We are not all born straight.

Yes we are.

There exists no truly objective means of determining whether a person is gay or straight. One cannot take a blood test or DNA test to prove that he or she is “gay.” We must depend entirely upon a person’s claim that they are gay.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Heterosexuals are really just gay people who are attracted to the opposite sex.

That is true! IF you use the old time definition of “gay”.

 

[Regina7]

If you agree that Pew is a very well respected polling service, but only accept Pew results that rubberstamp your own views on the LGBTQ issues, then you have put a literal end to debate with others. We are all born with the ability to reason, love and hate. We are not all born straight.

Who agreed that Pew is a well-respected polling service?

 

[AyJSimon]

Yes we are.

There exists no truly objective means of determining whether a person is gay or straight. One cannot take a blood test or DNA test to prove that he or she is “gay.” We must depend entirely upon a person’s claim that they are gay.

If there’s no objective means of determining whether a person is gay or straight, then you have no rational standing to claim that we’re all born straight.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

If there’s no objective means of determining whether a person is gay or straight, then you have no rational standing to claim that we’re all born straight.

That’s a good point. perhaps I should have said we are born only as men and women. And if someone claims to be gay…they really can’t prove it.

 

[Corki]

So what is the physical difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals?

Good question.

Heterosexuals are really just gay people who are attracted to the opposite sex.

Not from a biological standpoint. Humans are heterosexual as a class. Sex is, biologically, a reproductive function. Even non-procreative sex uses organs and processes from the human reproductive system. We are hetero in that regard because it takes two different (male and female) individuals to reproduce.

Whatever you think of the morality of homosexual activity or the genesis of the condition, it is unassailable that it is a condition that drives an expression that does not correlate to the physical function of the human body and its reproductive system.

 

[JimG]

Heterosexuals are really just gay people who are attracted to the opposite sex.

In other words, human beings come in just two varieties–men and women. Everyone is either male or female. “Orientation” is a construct which is beside the point of what human beings are.

 

[Bradski]

The actual question they asked was: “Do you personally believe that…getting a divorce is morally acceptable, morally wrong, or is it not a moral issue? (If Necessary, ask And is…getting a divorce morally acceptable, morally wrong, or is it not a moral issue?”

No mention of Church teaching or of a religious standpoint.

They specifically asked Roman Catholics. They were interested in what Roman Catholics thought. They didn’t mention Catholic teaching because they would know, as do we all, what Catholic teaching is. They were checking to see if personal opinion was at variance with Church teaching. That was precisely the point of the exercise.

If that question began with the words “As a Catholic do you personally believe that…?” the percentages would be reversed.

Are you suggesting that people believe one thing if their Catholicism isn’t mentioned, but would give a different answer if it is? Well, I’m not sure why I asked that because that is exactly what you said.

Can you explain how someone can give believe two contradictory things at the same time? Do people say: ‘yeah, I think that’s OK’ and then say: ‘oh, hang on. I just remembered I’m a Catholic. So no, I don’t think it’s ok’.

Do you do that? If you give me an answer to anything, do I have to ask if it’s your personal opinion or if it’s your Catholic opinion?

But what’s the real point? Are you saying that because the divorce rate is high, the Catholic Church should accept same sex couples as “married”?

As has been pointed out, the problems caused by divorce, even just among Catholics, outweigh any problem you might consider homosexual marriages cause by a huge amount. Yet you concentrate on one and ignore the other.

Unless, of course, you can point me to any posts you have made complaining about divorce. If you can’t, there is an undeniable bias in your attitude.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

They specifically asked Roman Catholics. They were interested in what Roman Catholics thought. They didn’t mention Catholic teaching because they would know, as do we all, what Catholic teaching is. They were checking to see if personal opinion was at variance with Church teaching. That was precisely the point of the exercise.

No they did not specifically ask Roman Catholics. They asked the same question of 1500 people, 337 of whom claimed to be Catholics.

I would be careful about saying that** we all know what Catholic teaching is**. If this poll was accurate, I would say that many Catholics need some religious education.

Can you explain how someone can give believe two contradictory things at the same time? Do people say: ‘yeah, I think that’s OK’ and then say: ‘oh, hang on. I just remembered I’m a Catholic. So no, I don’t think it’s ok’.

Do you do that? If you give me an answer to anything, do I have to ask if it’s your personal opinion or if it’s your Catholic opinion?

Based on how a question is worded and asked…answers will differ. For instance, I have no problem with non Catholics getting a divorce because it is legal. My answer would have been, Yes, I think divorce is morally wrong for Catholics but not morally wrong for non Catholics. So my answer would be unacceptable.

As has been pointed out, the problems caused by divorce, even just among Catholics, outweigh any problem you might consider homosexual marriages cause by a huge amount. Yet you concentrate on one and ignore the other.

Actually problems caused by homosexual marriage far outweigh anything caused by divorce.

When the state grants marital status to homosexual couples it is encouraging people to engage in risky sexual behavior that undermines good health, shorten life expectancy and more importantly spreads disease.

I don’t see how you can say divorce problems outweigh the epidemic spread of STD’s within the gay community. A marriage breakup is nothing compared to people dying.

Unless, of course, you can point me to any posts you have made complaining about divorce. If you can’t, there is an undeniable bias in your attitude.

Not that it makes any difference…I have have complained, on other threads, about divorce.
I have also complained about the relative ease of annulments within the Catholic Church.

 

[Corki]

Depending on different models, LGBTQ people make up about 2% to 4% of the population. For the last quarter of a century the divorce rate is over 50%. Those numbers alone make it blatantly clear that divorce affects our world far more than gay marriage issues.

The 50% divorce rate is a myth. Please don’t perpetuate it - especially as a defense for another immoral action.

nytimes.com/2014/12/02/upshot/the-divorce-surge-is-over-but-the-myth-lives-on.html

even HuffPo

huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/30/divorce-rate-50-percent_n_6396922.html

It was never more than a projection that has not been borne out. Even at it’s peak (back in the 70s), the divorce rate was about 40% and hovers around 30% now, with rates under 20% for many subgroups (such as college aged women).

 

[Bradski]

For instance, I have no problem with non Catholics getting a divorce because it is legal. My answer would have been, Yes, I think divorce is morally wrong for Catholics but not morally wrong for non Catholics. So my answer would be unacceptable.

So you think that morality is relative to your religious beliefs? That some things are wrong for you but perfectly acceptable for me?

That’s an interesting position.

 

[QuestLove]

Actually problems caused by homosexual marriage far outweigh anything caused by divorce.

When the state grants marital status to homosexual couples it is encouraging people to engage in risky sexual behavior that undermines good health, shorten life expectancy and more importantly spreads disease.

**I don’t see how you can say divorce problems outweigh the epidemic spread of STD’s within the gay community. A marriage breakup is nothing compared to people dying. **

I would stay away from this argument as a defense. STD and AIDS transmission is lowest in the lesbian community (even lower than among heterosexuals) yet we still do not accept lesbianism in the church community.

 

[QuestLove]

The 50% divorce rate is a myth. Please don’t perpetuate it - especially as a defense for another immoral action.

nytimes.com/2014/12/02/upshot/the-divorce-surge-is-over-but-the-myth-lives-on.html

even HuffPo

huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/30/divorce-rate-50-percent_n_6396922.html

It was never more than a projection that has not been borne out. Even at it’s peak (back in the 70s), the divorce rate was about 40% and hovers around 30% now, with rates under 20% for many subgroups (such as college aged women).

Even with a divorce rate as low as 20%, it means something else has a bigger effect on the breaking up of traditional marriage than SSM. The question is even if SSM was made illegal today, in all states and countries, would we see a significant improvement in traditional marriages and less single parent families? I am not so sure we would.

 

[JimG]

Even with a divorce rate as low as 20%, it means something else has a bigger effect on the breaking up of traditional marriage than SSM. The question is even if SSM was made illegal today, in all states and countries, would we see a significant improvement in traditional marriages and less single parent families? I am not so sure we would.

The question is, would deconstructing marriage even more, help or hurt? When the patient is seriously ill, one doesn’t say, ‘well, he’s already sick; might as well have him make some more unhealthy lifestyle choices. He’ll just get a little worse than he is already.’

The challenge is to strengthen marriage, not weaken it more.