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goout
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Yes, but as I and others say, you don’t look at celibacy in isolation. You look at the whole of the culture and all the factors.
Why is clerical culture not healthy? What can be changed for the better?
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Why is clerical culture not healthy? What can be changed for the better?
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PetraG
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The thing I am afraid eliminating the discipline of celibacy will do is to advance the prejudice that sexual continence is unnatural and unsustainable for a healthy unmarried adult. I don’t object to the idea that both married men and deliberately celibate men can be good priests. I think the Orthodox example shows that this can be the case. I very much object to the idea that celibacy simply is not realistic for a healthy person and is therefore a damaging discipline–to the point that it causes normal people to become sex offenders or to develop sexual appetites they would never have had if they had married! Those are very dangerous falsehoods about celibacy and about chastity among single people.
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Maximus1
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I am not sure if your data applies to my point.
Married should yield a greater percentage of heterosexual candidates. Less pedophiles.
The Church was a natural ideal place for a pedophile.
It provided cover.
It provided safety.
For preditors, it provided an illusion.
Enough numbers, and the institution provides protection.
Celibacy does not cause pedophiles, it gathers them out of their own desire to be safe and to engage their impulse.
Married should yield a greater percentage of heterosexual candidates. Less pedophiles.
The Church was a natural ideal place for a pedophile.
It provided cover.
It provided safety.
For preditors, it provided an illusion.
Enough numbers, and the institution provides protection.
Celibacy does not cause pedophiles, it gathers them out of their own desire to be safe and to engage their impulse.
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Sarcelle
Guest
You say it better than I ever could.
As a chaste single person it is not lost on me that others will view me under an umbrella of suspicion. Like I will suddenly turn into a sexual predator…because no sex.
As a chaste single person it is not lost on me that others will view me under an umbrella of suspicion. Like I will suddenly turn into a sexual predator…because no sex.
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BT3241
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When a Priest is ordained they know very well what they are vowing to not like they don’t know maybe they should quit if they can’t - believe it or not there are men and women who can live the life and do - their life is dedicated to God and God only - a man with a family is divided between his family and God - I think it would change the church and if your ok with that then so be it.
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Sarcelle
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You realize that the majority of pedophiles are heterosexual right? The victims of child molesters are more often that not little girls.
Also homosexuality and pedophilia aren’t one and the same.
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PetraG
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No, pedophiles marry all of the time. I think in the United States about 45% or so of convicted pedophiles are either married or have been married. More to the point, relatively few (less than 10%) are exclusively attracted to children. Only a third say they were victims of sexual abuse as children. There is little that will make a man seem safe around children like having children of his own, but this is no guarantee. It can even be a cover.
I am also concerned that the life of a priest is difficult and we do live in a time where divorce is rampant and when it can be unilaterally imposed by one spouse on the other. If we assume that priests will not have starkly different divorce rates than any other Catholics…well, think about that.
Consider these statistics:
DIVORCE ALSO AFFECTS CLERGY
Clergy bless marriages till “death do you part” but the U.S. Census Bureau projects that nearly half of all newlyweds will split before then. But what about when the clergy get married?…
www.courant.com
Across 10 Protestant denominations, “1 in 4 of the clergy women and 1 in 5 of the clergy men had been divorced at some point… 2 out of 3 of the men were divorced after ordination…Because the seminary sample was based on denominational lists of active clergy, it necessarily leaves out ministers who quit the church after divorce.”
and also
“In the Episcopal Church, 30 percent of the female clergy and 25 percent of the male clergy have been divorced.”
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Maximus1
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But it is a Catholic problem because the Church provides them an optimal place to be.
Not intentionally, I would agree coincidentally, but objectively this is the case. Celibacy has a bigger impact on a heterosexual man than a pedophile.
Not intentionally, I would agree coincidentally, but objectively this is the case. Celibacy has a bigger impact on a heterosexual man than a pedophile.
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goout
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Time out.
We are talking about chastity, not just celibacy. Chastity is the integration of sexuality within the whole person, in whatever state of life they live.
A married person can be an excellent example of a chaste lifestyle. So can a celibate person.
Different terms:
celibacy,
continence,
chastity
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Sarcelle
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Sarcelle
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I know that.
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BT3241
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If married men are allowed then any man can become a priest and there would be even more perverts of all kinds accessing the church
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goout
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That was for theother poster.You got lump quoted. Sorry
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PetraG
Guest
No, I realize that. I am referring to the prejudice that pipes up every time there is sexual misconduct by a celibate priest: “Well, if they just let them marry, they wouldn’t have these problems.”
Unfortunately, there is zero evidence that ordaining married men would solve the problem. It would also be tacking on the problem of clergy getting divorced, based on the experiences of other denominations in the United States.
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goout
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Looking at this discipline is not straight line cure for problems. You look with an eye to changing the culture.goout:
No, I realize that. I am referring to the prejudice that pipes up every time there is sexual misconduct by a celibate priest: “Well, if they just let them marry, they wouldn’t have these problems.”
Yes, they would. They will also be tacking on the problem of clergy getting divorced, based on the experiences of other denominations in the United States.
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Maximus1
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Reading about the scandal years ago, I recall they had profiles for vulnerable kids.
I am sure pedophiles are not sociopathic. They have an impulse, but if they become priests they likely have empathy and they maintain their own sense of self by becoming " celibate" priests. People are full of conflicts and contradictions. They rather not be married and celibacy is an ideal way because it offers esteem.
I am sure pedophiles are not sociopathic. They have an impulse, but if they become priests they likely have empathy and they maintain their own sense of self by becoming " celibate" priests. People are full of conflicts and contradictions. They rather not be married and celibacy is an ideal way because it offers esteem.
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PetraG
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Not if the Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People is followed. That is what will actually combat the problem and provide a way for those who are abused to end their victimization as soon as possible and to get the help they need to heal.
I think some are and some aren’t, just like any other crime. Sociopaths are good at acting like reliable people while they are actually looking for opportunities to take advantage of other people. Not all pedophiles are sociopaths, but being a sociopath is not an innoculation against being a pedophile.
Besides, having an addiction or other compulsion will always incline the people with those conditions to become liars, no matter what kind of character they had developed before becoming enslaved to their compulsion. Addicts and alcoholics will lie to you, even the ones who were trustworthy before they became addicted. It is not different with sexual compulsions. (Good grief, it isn’t even different with old-fashioned extramarital affairs.)
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Rubee
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I never claimed there was never abuse. You claimed there was (1) an epidemic (2) caused by celibacy. Its ridiculous and I will continue to mock it.
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Maximus1
Guest
You make a good point about divorce. You have no control over a spouse, and besides, they didn’t take a vow as clergy, only in marriage. The church can no longer, sell ex wife’s and children off. Who pays support.
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Maximus1
Guest
It is a discipline derived from Paul who calls it a gift. A Charism.
So why a discipline for a gift from the Holy Spirit.
I showed you writings of an expert who estimates half are CELIBATE. Makes sense if you believe Paul. Charisms are not common.
I continue to remind, I didn’t say celibacy does not cause pedophilia, I said it contributed I attracting those already pedophiles to the cloth.
Have you ever examined the number of cases and their dispersal around the globe. It indicates lots and lots of pedophiles
So why a discipline for a gift from the Holy Spirit.
I showed you writings of an expert who estimates half are CELIBATE. Makes sense if you believe Paul. Charisms are not common.
I continue to remind, I didn’t say celibacy does not cause pedophilia, I said it contributed I attracting those already pedophiles to the cloth.
Have you ever examined the number of cases and their dispersal around the globe. It indicates lots and lots of pedophiles
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