How does Marian devotion save?

[moondweller]

Moondweller,
just a note ,my last post was more meant to focus on your comment that the 7 angels before the lord in Tobit 12:12 was “spurios”.
Ie I showed the Rev 8:1-3 verse of the 7 angels before the lord.

What is spurious is that one of them is named Raphael and connected to the fantastic story in the book of Tobias. Again, Rev. 8 does not state that those prayers of the saints on earth were addressed to angels in heaven, even those seven who stand before God. Keep in mind, the scene in chapter eight is prophetic, it’s future, not a present occurrence.

 

[Good_Fella]

Scripture reveals only ONE High Priestly office today, and it’s filled by the risen Christ. Scripture reveals no High Priestess in heaven, only the High Priestly office of Jesus Christ who entered the heavenly temple with His own blood.Yes, the believers make up a spiritual “holy priesthood,” but notice the prayers are offered up “through Jesus Christ” (our heavenly High Priest), not through Mary or any other deceased “saint.”

As a living member of the mystical body of Christ and the royal priesthood of the faithful, our Blessed Mother mediates on our behalf by her intercessory prayers offered up to God through her divine Son in heaven. Her prayers are most powerful because of her Divine Maternity and the fact that she has already been glorified and shares in the divine glory of her Son by her Assumption into heaven.

There is no example of anyone in Scripture praying to a deceased saint in heaven.

There is no example of anyone saying the Our Father. But we can assume that the faithful in apostolic time recited this prayer, since Jesus himself taught it to us. Likewise we can assume that the faithful asked others to pray for them, since they were instructed to pray for each other as living members of Christ’s mystical body, who include the faithful departed. St. Paul himself asked the faithful to pray for him so that he would receive the actual graces he needed to successfully complete his ministry on earth. The apostles definitely never taught that those who had departed from this life were in an unconscious stupor until the end of time. If they had, the revelation given to St. John through heavenly visions on the Isle of Patmos decades after St. Paul and the other apostles wrote their letters would have prompted them to change their minds. However, St. Paul’s treatment of the mystical body of Christ presupposes that the primitive Christian community believed that the faithful departed still were living members of this mystical body. Thus they naturally would have invoked the saints in heaven to pray for them even more than the living members on earth, who still had to progress towards final sanctification and justification, unlike the ones who had washed their robes clean by their faith working through love until they had run the race and received their crown of glory.

Then one of the elders spoke up and said to me, “Who are these wearing white robes, and where did they come from?” I said to him, “My lord, you are the one who knows.” He said to me, “These are the ones who have survived the great distress; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb. For this reason they stand before God’s throne and worship him day and night in his temple. The one who sits on the throne will shelter them. They will not hunger or thirst anymore, nor will the sun or any heat strike them. For the lamb who is in the center of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to springs of life -giving water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” When he broke open the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw that the seven angels who stood before God were given seven trumpets. Another angel stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.
Revelation 7, 13-17; 8, 1-4

The holy ones are the martyrs who survived the great persecutions by going to heaven. They have been justified by the shedding of their blood for the sake of our Lord in faith. They stand in God’s presence not merely because they believed in Jesus, but because they offered their lives for him (cf. Jas 2:24). Thus the holy ones have been rewarded with the privilege of fully participating in the mediation of Christ by offering their prayers before God on our behalf together with the Lamb at the altar before God’s throne. By having participated in the passion and death of our Lord, they mediate by their intercessory prayers by right of friendship (de congruo proprie) as Christ mediates by re-presenting the shedding of his blood before the Father as a propitiation for our sins in strict justice (de condigno). In the order of grace, Mary the Mother of God, our Lord Jesus Christ who is a divine Person in his humanity, stands before the saints along side her Son, her body having already been redeemed by her Assumption. The Lamb must still shepherd and lead the holy ones…meaning they must still await the resurrection (cf. Rev 21:4). She joins the rank of those who had washed their robes white in the blood of the Lamb by their martyrdom, for she herself spiritually suffered a martyr’s death when she stood at the foot of the cross (Lk 2:35). Christ is the head of the mystical body, and so the prayers of Mary and the holy ones are placed with him as they all supplicate together before the Father’s throne. This is possible since Christ mediates on our behalf in his shared humanity with us as a divine Person whose merits appease the Father’s wrath.

To be continued… :tiphat:

 

[Good_Fella]

This has to do with Paul’s suffering in his ministry of taking the “word of reconciliation” (2 Cor. 5:19) to Israel and especially the Gentiles (Acts 9:15-16). Paul, now deceased, is not interceding or mediating for anyone on earth. Scripture reveals only One who intercedes for us (on earth) in heaven - the Man Christ Jesus.

The point is we are not passive spectators in the divine work of salvation. Our Lord desires we help save souls for him by our prayers and sacrifices. Indeed, St. Paul can be counted among the holy ones St. John envisioned in heaven praying for us before God since he suffered a martyr’s death.

Again, this speaks of his earthly ministry as an Apostle who took the “word of reconciliation” to the world and suffered and eventually died because of that glorious message.Christ Himself “finished” the work of Divine redemption, once for all, while here on earth through His sacrificial death.

Christ redeemed the world, so now it’s up to us to help save souls. We can begin by letting our light shine before men. Since our justification isn’t a *one-time event *(cf. Col 1: 21-23), the apostle wished to encourage the faithful by his suffering to persevere in their sufferings so that they wouldn’t eventually lose their faith. His gesture filled what was lacking in the suffering of Christ, that is he worked in fellowship with our Lord to ensure the salvation of souls, which would be of no merit for those who eventually fell away after having been initially justified by their baptisms (cf. 2 Cor 1: 3-7).

Ours is to testify of this “finished” work, to be believed by men for their salvation, their justification, their gift of eternal life.

So, you don’t consider “testifying of this finished work” a participatory work of salvation that serves to help bring it to fruition in the lives of individual persons? If it weren’t for the ministry of the apostles and their willingness to preach the good news nobody would be aware of this finished work and too many more souls would be lost. Christ commissioned his apostles to help save souls together with him in his footsteps now that he has opened the door to salvation. But unfortunately not everyone will walk through that door because of their hardened hearts and resistance to divine grace. God desires that everyone be saved (1 Tim 2:4), but not everyone will be through their own fault. It was up to them to help bring Christ’s completed work and unlimited atonement to fruition in their own lives.

“Come follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.”
Matthew 4, 19

PAX :harp:

 

[moondweller]

As a living member of the mystical body of Christ and the royal priesthood of the faithful, our Blessed Mother mediates on our behalf by her intercessory prayers offered up to God through her divine Son in heaven.

But Scriptures teaches us that there is only ONE mediator between God and men: the Man Christ Jesus (1 Tim. 2:5). And the theopneustos Scriptures tell us of only ONE in heaven who intercedes and advocates for us on earth, the risen and glorified Christ who now functions at the right hand of God the Father as the believer’s High Priest (Heb. 1:3; 7:25; 1 Jn. 2:1).

Her prayers are most powerful because of her Divine Maternity and the fact that she has already been glorified and shares in the divine glory of her Son by her Assumption into heaven.

Jesus made sure that His bodily resurrection and subsequent ascension into heaven was eye witnessed by men, and they in turn were sent out by Him into the world to bear witness to those glorious events. Yet there is NOT EVEN ONE eye witness who recorded Mary’s supposed bodily assumption into heaven. Nor is there any shred of Divine evidence concerning the powers (even Divine), and heavenly position, men (not the Apostles) down through the centuries have ascribed her.

There is no example of anyone saying the Our Father.

Nonetheless, the content of it is recorded in Scripture. Personally, I don’t think it was ever meant to be memorized and recited as a packaged prayer but rather a guide line.

But we can assume that the faithful in apostolic time recited this prayer, since Jesus himself taught it to us.

In Scripture there’s no indication that the Apostles taught the churches to memorize it and ritualistically recite it.

Likewise we can assume that the faithful asked others to pray for them, since they were instructed to pray for each other as living members of Christ’s mystical body,

I agree. We on earth are to pray for one another. But we do that face to face, by telephone, email, letter, etc.

who include the faithful departed.

It states nothing concerning the deceased.

St. Paul himself asked the faithful to pray for him so that he would receive the actual graces he needed to successfully complete his ministry on earth.

But there is no record of Paul ever petitioning by prayer saints such as Moses, Abraham, or even Stephen who died at his bidding (martyred).

The apostles definitely never taught that those who had departed from this life were in an unconscious stupor until the end of time.

We know they’re not - based on Scripture! But that’s not the issue.

If they had, the revelation given to St. John through heavenly visions on the Isle of Patmos decades after St. Paul and the other apostles wrote their letters would have prompted them to change their minds.

What does John’s Patmos vision have to do with prayers to deceased saints and Mary?However, St. Paul’s treatment of the mystical body of Christ presupposes that the primitive Christian community believed that the faithful departed still were living members of this mystical body.Deceased believers ARE still members of the Body of Christ, which is the church (and which will be taken up as a body). But that’s not the issue. It doesn’t “presuppose” they can hear prayers of men on earth (spoken and unspoken).

Thus they naturally would have invoked the saints in heaven to pray for them even more than the living members on earth, who still had to progress towards final sanctification and justification, unlike the ones who had washed their robes clean by their faith working through love until they had run the race and received their crown of glory

There’s no Apostolic instruction on “invoking” deceased saints. But there is clear teaching by Christ Himself to ask HIM anything (according to God’s will) in HIS NAME, and He will do it.

Revelation 7, 13-17; 8, 1-4

I already addressed these passages.

The holy ones are the martyrs who survived the great persecutions by going to heaven. They have been justified by the shedding of their blood for the sake of our Lord in faith.

This statement is completely heretical. No man is “justified” by the shedding of his own blood. Men are justified, as a gift, by God by faith through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus (that’s Christ’s blood; Rom. 3:24).

They stand in God’s presence not merely because they believed in Jesus, but because they offered their lives for him (cf. Jas 2:24).

James doe not teach justification through martyrdom. This is heretical.

Thus the holy ones have been rewarded with the privilege of fully participating in the mediation of Christ by offering their prayers before God on our behalf together with the Lamb at the altar before God’s throne.

Strictly an assertion by men, based on absolutely no Divine revelation. The rest of that paragraph is also merely the assertions of men. What separates true Christianity from all the religions on earth (ancient and modern) is it’s based on Divine Revelation. Especially heavenly things which must be Divinely revealed. They cannot simply be asserted by men.

 

[moondweller]

The point is we are not passive spectators in the divine work of salvation.

We are passive recipients of salvation upon faith in Christ.

Our Lord desires we help save souls for him by our prayers and sacrifices.

We don’t “help” the Lord “save” souls. He saves them (completely) upon personal faith in Christ ("For by grace you have been saved through faith…the gift of God, not as a result of works")

Indeed, St. Paul can be counted among the holy ones St. John envisioned in heaven praying for us before God since he suffered a martyr’s death.

Those in John’s vision are martyred Tribulation saints (future). Paul is a part of Christ’s church which is not depicted there.

Christ redeemed the world, so now it’s up to us to help save souls.

Christ took upon Himself the SINS of the world (Jn. 1:29) on the cross. But one is not personally redeemed by His blood, forgiven of all sins, and reconciled to God until he/she has personally believed the message of Christ.

We can begin by letting our light shine before men. Since our justification isn’t a *one-time event *(cf. Col 1: 21-23),

This passage does not teach multiple justifications.

the apostle wished to encourage the faithful by his suffering to persevere in their sufferings so that they wouldn’t eventually lose their faith. His gesture filled what was lacking in the suffering of Christ, that is he worked in fellowship with our Lord to ensure the salvation of souls, which would be of no merit for those who eventually fell away after having been initially justified by their baptisms (cf. 2 Cor 1: 3-7).

Certainly Paul offered himself as an example of persevering in the faith under intense persecution. But Scripture does not teach us that one is “fully” justified by perseverance. Justification is gifted by God based on one’s FAITH in Christ’s “finished” work on the cross for them (Rom. 3:24).

So, you don’t consider “testifying of this finished work” a participatory work of salvation that serves to help bring it to fruition in the lives of individual persons?

The ministry of the “word of reconciliation” testifies of the “work of reconciliation” completed by Christ on the cross.2 Cor 5:18 "Now all {these} things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,"The “ministry of reconciliation” is taking the “word of reconciliation” to be believed on by the world for salvation (2 Cor. 5:19).

If it weren’t for the ministry of the apostles and their willingness to preach the good news nobody would be aware of this finished work and too many more souls would be lost.

Absolutely. But that “good news” (gospel) has to do with Christ’s, once for all, redemptive work. The gospel (good news message) of Christ is propositional, i.e., personally believed unto salvation or personally rejected. But it’s in HIS work that one is to BELIEVE.

Christ commissioned his apostles to help save souls together with him in his footsteps now that he has opened the door to salvation.

Christ commissioned His Apostles to preach the gospel message concerning Himself. Upon belief it’s God Himself who saves the believing soul. No man can save a soul.

But unfortunately not everyone will walk through that door

Jesus said:John 10:9 “I am the door; if anyone enters* through Me**, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.*”

because of their hardened hearts and resistance to divine grace.

Yes. That salvation grace is received through faith in Christ alone.

God desires that everyone be saved (1 Tim 2:4), but not everyone will be through their own fault.

Because of unbelief. They refuse to believe what Christ has DONE for them.

It was up to them to help bring Christ’s completed work and unlimited atonement to fruition in their own lives.

They were commissioned only to bring the gospel (good news) concerning Christ to the world, to be believed unto salvation, “by grace through faith.” Intercession by Christ in heaven is for those who ARE saved (the redeemed, the justified, the reconciled), having believed in Him and purchased by His blood.

The doctrine of Mary’s heavenly, intercessory work is based on the false premise that salvation is a process (in need of Mary’s help) and not a Divine gift bestowed on the believer at the time of personal faith in Jesus Christ (Eph. 2:8-9).

 

[panevino]

Originally Posted by panevino
Moondweller,
just a note ,my last post was more meant to focus on your comment that the 7 angels before the lord in Tobit 12:12 was “spurios”.
Ie I showed the Rev 8:1-3 verse of the 7 angels before the lord.

What is spurious is that one of them is named Raphael and connected to the fantastic story in the book of Tobias. Again, Rev. 8 does not state that those prayers of the saints on earth were addressed to angels in heaven, even those seven who stand before God. Keep in mind, the scene in chapter eight is prophetic, it’s future, not a present occurrence.

so the Tobit verse has seven angels and one of them presens a pray of someone on earth to the lord…
This is what happens in rev8:1
the only thing out of place is the name of the angel Raphael.

I agree I don’t think we can say the prayer was adressed to the angel as a prayer request.

But what is certainly happening in the Rev8 verse (backed up by Tobit)is a form of intercession or presentation of a prayer of a saint on earth to the lord.

Rev 5:8 also shows the elders holding prayer. of saints

who r the elders
Rev 11: 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

mat 19: 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

ok again it does not say that the initial prayers where addressed to these elders or angels
as a prayer request to Jesus. But they are certainly in heaven and are holding/ presenting them to him.

The martyred souls previously discussed also interceed to Jesus about someone on earth, as a result of being aware of the long delay in judgement. Rev6:9

sorry to repeat stuff.
But these verses clearly show a heavenly interaction with Jesus about people on earth.
Jesus is the only mediator b/w god and man, and these heavenly hosts are participating through Jesus .

Psalm 141:2 Let my prayer be set forth before thee [as] incense; [and] the lifting up of my hands [as] the evening sacrifice.

Psalm the heights.148: 2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

 

[Lycorth]

Marian devotion “saves” by pointing us to her Son, to whom we give our worship and faith. It’s simple, really

 

[diggerdomer]

The question is, where in ANY of Paul’s letters does he address praying to deceased saints or to Mary?

Paul’s principle still stands, “All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable.”

Paul doesn’t address either.

So what?

Paul doesn’t address the sacraments of ordination, marriage, anointing of the sick, etc. Does that mean those Sacraments aren’t valid? Or necessary, for Catholics? Or useful/beneficial? And he only mentions Eucharist in ONE letter. Only one. Given all the letters attributed to him, does that mean we should infer that Eucharist was not that important?

Again, you seem to be taking select passages, out of context, to support the point you seem to want to make.

 

[diggerdomer]

What is spurious is that one of them is named Raphael and connected to the fantastic story in the book of Tobias. Again, Rev. 8 does not state that those prayers of the saints on earth were addressed to angels in heaven, even those seven who stand before God. Keep in mind, the scene in chapter eight is prophetic, it’s future, not a present occurrence.

What do you mean by “fantastic”?

 

[diggerdomer]

What is spurious is that one of them is named Raphael and connected to the fantastic story in the book of Tobias. Again, Rev. 8 does not state that those prayers of the saints on earth were addressed to angels in heaven, even those seven who stand before God. Keep in mind, the scene in chapter eight is prophetic, it’s future, not a present occurrence.

Revelation refers both to the present and the future.

 

[diggerdomer]

But Scriptures teaches us that there is only ONE mediator between God and men: the Man Christ Jesus (1 Tim. 2:5). And the theopneustos Scriptures tell us of only ONE in heaven who intercedes and advocates for us on earth, the risen and glorified Christ who now functions at the right hand of God the Father as the believer’s High Priest (Heb. 1:3; 7:25; 1 Jn. 2:1)

That may be your interpretation of Scripture, but it’s not the Catholic Church’s.

 

[diggerdomer]

We are passive recipients of salvation upon faith in Christ…

Where does God, or Christ, or the Bible, or anything, call Christians to be passive?

 

[panevino]

Originally Posted by moondweller
We are passive recipients of salvation upon faith in Christ…

Where does God, or Christ, or the Bible, or anything, call Christians to be passive?

I thought this was relevant
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Didn’t Jesus ask for the cup to pass from him By gods will - mat 26:39.
Dosent this show that we as saints must struggle to live our faith even at tough times,
while all done under and only available by gods grace, we can fail to do things and know we should of.
So surely this Ongoing faith is not passive, obvioualy the only way we can 1st have faith is by being drawn, but beyond that, holding onto it and remaining obedient is not entirely passivE don’t u agree. Everything we actually do that is gods will is a only by grace, but the things we MIss , and the bad things we do , to me is where faith is illustrated to not be passive.

 

[moondweller]

Originally Posted by moondweller
We are passive recipients of salvation upon faith in Christ…

I thought this was relevant
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Didn’t Jesus ask for the cup to pass from him By gods will - mat 26:39.
Dosent this show that we as saints must struggle to live our faith even at tough times,
while all done under and only available by gods grace, we can fail to do things and know we should of.
So surely this Ongoing faith is not passive, obvioualy the only way we can 1st have faith is by being drawn, but beyond that, holding onto it and remaining obedient is not entirely passivE don’t u agree. Everything we actually do that is gods will is a only by grace, but the things we MIss , and the bad things we do , to me is where faith is illustrated to not be passive.

Well, none of this is really relevant to this thread on how Marian devotion saves.

But let me say, I’ve already addressed this several times. Here’s what I’ve posted:"No we’re not. It’s God who saves upon faith in Christ, men do not save themselves:

Titus 3:5 "***He saved us**, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit*,"

According to the Scriptures, men are saved “by grace through faith.” That’s faith in another Man’s work - the Man Christ Jesus. That’s a passive faith. The work was DONE by Another - according to the Scriptures. It’s the “saved by grace through faith” (Eph. 2:8-9) that are “created in Christ Jesus for good works…” (Eph. 2:10). It’s the saved who work, they don’t work to be saved."

IOW, the “saved” are now “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works,” they’re not saved nor created in Christ Jesus BY good works. The faith through which GOD saves is passive - it trusts in the “finished” work of Another. But the SAVED are called to good works - that’s not passive."Not FOR salvation. As I said, “It’s the saved who work, they don’t work to be saved.”

"The faith of the saved is alive and active. The SAVED walk by faith (2 Cor. 5:7). They, the SAVED, live by faith (Gal. 2:20)."The reason none of this registers with you is because Catholicism has no concept of “saved.” Catholics are hoping that they’ll “be saved” and that’s why it (Catholicism) developed all it’s Marian doctrines, so that Catholics may call on “Mary” to help them achieve salvation. But, as I’ve pointed out, none of those Marian doctrines are supported by Scripture and salvation is an act of God through personal faith in the “finished” work of redemption which the Son accomplished on earth on the cross.

That’s all I’ll say about this on this thread. Technically it’s off topic.

 

[Lycorth]

The reason none of this registers with you is because Catholicism has no concept of “saved.” Catholics are hoping that they’ll “be saved” and that’s why it (Catholicism) developed all it’s Marian doctrines, so that Catholics may call on “Mary” to help them achieve salvation.

That’s because anyone can lose salvation by simply apostasizing from the faith and turning from the Lord. We must indeed run the good race and keep running it until the end; merely being in the lead doesn’t mean you will win. It’s like the tortoise and the hare.

But, as I’ve pointed out, none of those Marian doctrines are supported by Scripture and salvation is an act of God through personal faith in the “finished” work of redemption which the Son accomplished on earth on the cross.

There isn’t anything about Marian devotion that is anti-Scriptural.

Furthermore, not everything has to have a Scriptural justification; in vain.Sola Scriptura

 

[Thing]

Yes, but they were still conscious as demonstrated by the rich man and Lazarus.

Jesus had to descend to the place of the dead to preach to them. One assumes, therefore, that there was little other direct conversation between those in Abrahams comfort and God before God became man, preached to man, died, descended to hell to preach to the dead. My thoughts only.

Granted, but why would a creature’s presence in heaven suddenly give him (or her) Divine attributes.

Because whilst on earth even, we live and move and have our being in God. In heaven you could safely say that anything here on earth which separated man from God would be removed. Those in heaven would live totally in Him. His will being their will and their will being His will. Or as He might have said Himself. I in you, and you in Me and I in the Father and He in Me.

That is, those attributes one would need in order to hear the prayers (even inner thoughts) of saints on earth?

They would hear them, one assumes, because He wants them to hear them. Like He wanted you to hear the Gospels, and so He came all the way down to earth and chose 12 men to go to all the nations and tell them [tell you].

For that matter, then, how do you know the O.T. saints in “Abraham’s bosom” didn’t suddenly possess those Divine attributes? Maybe somebody just forgot to tell them.

More likely He waited until He descended into hell to preach to the souls waiting there since the days of Noe.

Yet still within the pages of the Bible that was being written, NONE of them instruct true believers to pray to deceased saints in heaven. Not even Paul, who knew his time was short (as did Peter), instructed men to pray to him after his death? Nor did Peter.

Nor did they angrily tell people not to pray to them in heaven.

Actually, all who believe in Christ and die - live (see Jn. 11:25).

Except the demons, who believe in God but are in hell.

I would assume they walk and talk and see each other through their own person.

Protestant individualism dissapears in heaven. You, and everyone else in heaven, live in Him and Him in them. So He lives and sees what you live and see and you live and see what He lives and sees.

Jesus actually said:John 14:13-14 "Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do {it.}"There’s your instruction regarding prayer, and to Whom to pray, and in Whose name.

He says “anything I ask” with no qualifications. You must add qualifications to His own words. I can ask Him to tell His friends in heaven, the saints, to pray for me and you to Him. And He said, above, that He will do that.

I know, but based on the Divine instruction given to us regarding prayer, is it “profitable?”

No Prayer to God could be ever wasted or unprofitable. Not even the Saints prayers to God in heaven.

 

[moondweller]

That’s because anyone can lose salvation by simply apostasizing from the faith and turning from the Lord. We must indeed run the good race and keep running it until the end; merely being in the lead doesn’t mean you will win. It’s like the tortoise and the hare.

Then according to this teaching men, in this life, are never actually “saved,” are they?

If I edit this message a box is shown which says, “save changes.” When I click on the box the changes I made are “SAVED.” The changes I made cannot be lost. That’s what “saved” means. They were “SAVED.” “SAVED” is a permanent condition, not a temporary position. One cannot be temporarily saved, else he was never truly “saved” at all. But when God Himself saves (through faith), He saves completely. He has the legal power to do so because the work required for the believer’s salvation was accomplished, in full, by Another - Jesus Christ. Unbelief denies this Divine truth and cannot comprehend the meaning of the word “saved.”

Furthermore, not everything has to have a Scriptural justification;

This is true of Catholicism and Mary’s supposed mediatorial work. In fact, one cannot find any “Scriptural justification” (support), whatsoever.

 

[Lycorth]

Then according to this teaching men, in this life, are never actually “saved,” are they?

If I edit this message a box is shown which says, “save changes.” When I click on the box the changes I made are “SAVED.” The changes I made cannot be lost. That’s what “saved” means. They were “SAVED.” “SAVED” is a permanent condition, not a temporary position. One cannot be temporarily saved, else he was never truly “saved” at all. But when God Himself saves (through faith), He saves completely. He has the legal power to do so because the work required for the believer’s salvation was accomplished, in full, by Another - Jesus Christ. Unbelief denies this Divine truth and cannot comprehend the meaning of the word “saved.”

So, a man can honestly profess faith in Christ, then turn around and deny Christ and he will still go to Heaven if he were to die that instant? That does not make sense.

God’s part of the work of salvation cannot be reversed; Christ died once and for all, rose from the dead, and it was indeed finished. But our part relies upon us to assent to honest faith, maintain it, and avoid sin, as well as repent of the sins we inevitably end up committing.

This is true of Catholicism and Mary’s supposed mediatorial work. In fact, one cannot find any “Scriptural justification” (support), whatsoever.

As the links I’ve provided prove, it is not true of Catholicism. Marian devotion is perfectly Christian; Protestant heresies do not make the truth into a lie.

The man-made heresy of *Sola Scriptura *is what cannot be found in the Bible.

 

[Corruich]

Then according to this teaching men, in this life, are never actually “saved,” are they?

If I edit this message a box is shown which says, “save changes.” When I click on the box the changes I made are “SAVED.” The changes I made cannot be lost. That’s what “saved” means. They were “SAVED.” “SAVED” is a permanent condition, not a temporary position.

I think this is an interesting analogy. However, I would disagree with your conclusion. I believe that the message you are editing can be changed again and then would need to be saved again. For example, if you had a file saved on your computer and your son came along and accidentally deleted it, then you could restore it from backup. That doesn’t mean your son could never delete it again. If he did, you would restore it again. This is similiar to how God, through the sacraments, restores his Grace in us - even when we defy him again and again.

The computer analogy is good, but the one I normally think of is a swimmer in a pool. If your son is drowning in the pool, you would jump in and save him. That doesn’t mean he couldn’t then immediately jump right back in the pool again. This also illustrates, I believe, the Immaculate Conception. You can imagine a person being saved from drowning by someone jumping in and pulling them out of the water. However, you can also imagine a person being saved by someone catching them before they fell in. So it is with Mary - Jesus caught her before she fell in.

 

[moondweller]

This also illustrates, I believe, the Immaculate Conception. You can imagine a person being saved from drowning by someone jumping in and pulling them out of the water. However, you can also imagine a person being saved by someone catching them before they fell in. So it is with Mary - Jesus caught her before she fell in.

Then she was never born of Adam. Your Mary is a separate creation. She’s not the Mary of the Bible.