How does Marian devotion save?

[poetryforjesus]

Then she was never born of Adam. Your Mary is a separate creation. She’s not the Mary of the Bible.

You are right that Mary is “separate” from us, in the sense that she is set apart for God alone.

Don’t be so quick to say she’s not the Mary of the Bible. Only she is not the Mary whom you think she is. She is Mother of the Messiah, created by God for the only purpose of being His Mother. Do not underestimate the graces God poured into her soul to make her fit for this identity.

It would be wise for a Christian to think twice before claiming without a shadow of doubt that Mary, Mother of Jesus, is a sinful creature just like himself or herself.

 

[moondweller]

I think this is an interesting analogy. However, I would disagree with your conclusion. I believe that the message you are editing can be changed again and then would need to be saved again. For example, if you had a file saved on your computer and your son came along and accidentally deleted it, then you could restore it from backup. That doesn’t mean your son could never delete it again. If he did, you would restore it again. This is similiar to how God, through the sacraments, restores his Grace in us - even when we defy him again and again. The computer analogy is good, but the one I normally think of is a swimmer in a pool. If your son is drowning in the pool, you would jump in and save him. That doesn’t mean he couldn’t then immediately jump right back in the pool again.

Your analogy is an analogy unto itself. It doesn’t reflect Divine revelation as revealed in Scripture. The one who believes the gospel message concerning Christ (the “gospel message” is not the four Gospel accounts) is from the time of personal belief redeemed by the blood of Christ. That means he’s been “purchased” by God, the price being Christ’s blood. The English language uses two words: redeemed and purchased; whereas the Greek employs three: “agorazo,” ekagorazo," and “lutroo” and are far more descriptive. “Agorazo” means to purchase out of the market place; “ekagorazo” means to purchase and remove completely; “lutroo” means to set free. The three together reveal the true believer’s *full *redemption (Divine purchasing) by the shed blood of Christ. Upon personal faith in Christ he is purchased by God out of the slave market of sin, never to return, and set free.Rev 5:9 "*And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased (agorazo) for God with Your blood {men} from every tribe and tongue and people and nation."At the time of personal belief in Christ, Christ’s sacrificial work of redemption is applied to the believer in full. He has forever been redeemed. He belongs to God. He is God’s own possession. That’s the purchasing power of Christ’s blood.

This also illustrates, I believe, the Immaculate Conception. You can imagine a person being saved from drowning by someone jumping in and pulling them out of the water. However, you can also imagine a person being saved by someone catching them before they fell in. So it is with Mary - Jesus caught her before she fell in.

Jesus said: “For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.” If your Mary was never born of Adam’s fallen race, then she is not of those “lost” whom Jesus came to seek and to save. The cross would mean nothing to her. Having been “immaculately” conceived, for her it (the cross) would serve no purpose.

 

[Thing]

Your analogy is an analogy unto itself. It doesn’t reflect Divine revelation as revealed in Scripture. The one who believes the gospel message concerning Christ (the “gospel message” is not the four Gospel accounts) is from the time of personal belief redeemed by the blood of Christ. That means he’s been “purchased” by God, the price being Christ’s blood. The English language uses two words: redeemed and purchased; whereas the Greek employs three: “agorazo,” ekagorazo," and “lutroo” and are far more descriptive. “Agorazo” means to purchase out of the market place; “ekagorazo” means to purchase and remove completely; “lutroo” means to set free. The three together reveal the true believer’s *full *redemption (Divine purchasing) by the shed blood of Christ. Upon personal faith in Christ he is purchased by God out of the slave market of sin, never to return, and set free.Rev 5:9 "*And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased (agorazo) for God with Your blood {men} from every tribe and tongue and people and nation."At the time of personal belief in Christ, Christ’s sacrificial work of redemption is applied to the believer in full. He has forever been redeemed. He belongs to God. He is God’s own possession. That’s the purchasing power of Christ’s blood.Jesus said: “For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.” If your Mary was never born of Adam’s fallen race, then she is not of those “lost” whom Jesus came to seek and to save. The cross would mean nothing to her. Having been “immaculately” conceived, for her it (the cross) would serve no purpose.

15 Leaving the right way they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam of Bosor, who loved the wages of iniquity,

19 Promising them liberty, whereas they themselves are the slaves of corruption. **For by whom a man is overcome, of the same also he is the slave. 20 For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former. **

21** For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice, than after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them**. 22 For, that of the true proverb has happened to them:
The dog is returned to his vomit: and, The sow that was washed, to her wallowing in the mire.

You can lose the prize as St. Paul said. And as St. Peter said.
To avoid all of this, to avoid leaving the way and going astray, which is the constant occupation of Christians, Marys example of fidelity and purity aids many Christians who follow that example and also ask intercessory prayers of her and the other Saints of the Church.

 

[Good_Fella]

So… without Mary no one can be saved.

Mary did freely co-operate in God’s plan of salvation by consenting to be the mother of our Lord and Saviour and thereby intimately uniting herself to his sacrificial death on the cross. Mary’s mediation is not necessary, our Lord’s mediation not needing any complement, but God willed that the principal mediation of his Son radiate through the participation of his mother. It is not incidental that the Word became flesh made of a woman and that Jesus performed his first miracle, which inaugurated his ministry in the shadow od the cross, by his mother’s solicitation.

Can you show me where these so-called “signal graces” for salvation are taught in the Scriptures?.. Or can you show me a quote from any ECF who quoted an Apostle who taught such things about Mary?

Signal graces are actual graces which God freely betows by no merit of ours in order to help us remain in a state of habitual grace. We can receive these graces through the prayers of righteous persons (Jas 5:16). St. Paul must have received the grace of conversion by the prayer of St. Stephen at the moment he was martyred under the former Pharisee’s supervision. He asked our Lord not to hold this sin against his persecutor. St. Luke acknowledges that Mary is a channel of divine grace. We read in his gospel (1:42-45): “And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy? Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”

Elizabeth praises her cousin for her faith - enacted in her fiat- which resulted in the Incarnation and the redemption of mankind. Mary is regarded by the Judaic Christians as a vital participant in the economy of salvation and the main physical channel of all grace between it’s physical Source and us. Our Lord’s grace does not affect the infant John, but by the mediation of his mother. The Infant in Mary’s womb is the Source of all grace, which is not poured out directly without the Mother’s presence. What causes the infant in Elizabeth’s womb to leap is the sound of Mary’s voice. In the economy of grace, Mary serves as Dispensatrix. Our Lord wills to channel his grace through his mother in every instance, even for the faithful who fail to recognize or refuse to invoke her mediation. Together with Elizabeth we must reverently ask: How is it that the the mother of my Lord should come to me? The Church has been answering this question for 2,000 years. According to the sacred Tradition of the Church, Mary is, as it were, the neck of Christ’s mystical body, uniting the members with their Head, and transmitting the vital impulse of grace to them.

“I salute you, O Mary, Theotokos: through you…John exulted while still in his mother’s womb, and the lamp adored the everlasting light…, grace ineffable came forth…, the true light came into the world, our Lord Jesus Christ…Through you, the Conqueror of death and destroyer of hell has come forth…Through you, the beauty of the Resurrection flowered, and its brilliance shone out…, the tremendous baptism in the Jordan has shone out, John and the river Jordan are made holy, and the devil is cast out…Through you, every faithful soul achieves salvation.”
Cyril of Alexandria (d.444), Homily 11; PG 77, 1030

…at the Annunciation the angel Gabriel told Mary that the Son she was about to conceive would be given by the Lord the throne of His father David, but failed to tell her that she too would receive a throne (Lk. 1:32-33).

The Lord swore an oath to David; he will not go back on his word: a son, the fruit of your body will I set upon your throne.
Psalm 132, 11

And Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”
Luke 1, 42

They were overjoyed at seeing the star, and on entering the house they saw the child with Mary his mother. They prostrated themselves and did him homage.
Matthew 2, 10-11

And coming to her [the angel] said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
Luke 1, 28

The angel Gabriel certainly acknowledged Mary’s royal dignity in the person of Queen Mother (Gebirah), whose throne was situated next to that of her son and could never be occupied by any of his wives (cf. 1 Kgs 2:19-21). The Magi approached the King of kings who was with his “mother” - not simply Mary. Her lap fittingly served as a throne for our Lord on this occasion, since he inherited the throne of his ancestor David directly through his mother as the fruit of her body. Gabriel’s salute ( ***Chaire ***kecharitomene) was reserved for members of royalty in ancient time. The Roman soldiers mockingly saluted Jesus with the same expression when they hailed him as the king of the Jews (cf. Mt 27:29).

And another angel appeared to Joseph in a dream stating that the Son Mary would bear would save His people from their sins, yet he failed to tell Mary that their salvation would also be accomplished through her (Matt. 1:20-21).

Mary’s contribution is self-evident by the fact she bore our Lord and Saviour. Rather blessed is she for having heard the word of God and keeping it (Lk 11:28).

To be cont…

 

[Lycorth]

15 Leaving the right way they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam of Bosor, who loved the wages of iniquity,

19 Promising them liberty, whereas they themselves are the slaves of corruption. **For by whom a man is overcome, of the same also he is the slave. 20 For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former. **

21** For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice, than after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them**. 22 For, that of the true proverb has happened to them:
The dog is returned to his vomit: and, The sow that was washed, to her wallowing in the mire.

You can lose the prize as St. Paul said. And as St. Peter said.
To avoid all of this, to avoid leaving the way and going astray, which is the constant occupation of Christians, Marys example of fidelity and purity aids many Christians who follow that example and also ask intercessory prayers of her and the other Saints of the Church.

Well-said.

That reflects the truth of the Church and Scripture.

 

[prodigalson12]

You have: Divine revelation as revealed in Scripture

We have: Divine revelation as revealed in Scripture + Divine revelation as revealed by the Church Jesus established and lives in to this very moment.

You are coming into battle barely armed moondweller, for the first 400 years, there was no bible, only fragments of testimony shared mainly orally, we had the church itself to rely upon led by the Holy Spirit, we take your bible away from you, what are you left with to defend your position? Nothing but human conjecture.

Have you ever experienced God in any way outside of the bible? I’m sure you have, it’s not written down in it, so in your mind and logic, you cannot, you must deny your own personal experiences in order to maintain your stance, and you then stand against yourself and your faith in the process.

If you really want to learn, you are more then welcome to test the spirit of Mary, see where she leads you, and there is a good reason she’s revered among us Catholic and Protestant believers. Take note, I say “Catholic and Protestant”, Mary is not exclusive to the Catholic faith at all, and it’s only a recent thing that happened with protestants deciding she’s now just part of the faith, the Catholic faith, and since she’s tied in with us, they must reject her. If you really want to put her and yourself to the test, get a rosary and pray it daily for a month, at the end of that month I’m sure you will come around, even if you don’t believe what you are praying, she has a way of working upon us, especially those of us that are particularly hard hear-ted in the process. And where she always leads you is to her son in a deeper and deeper relationship and understanding of him.

That to the side, I wanted to share something that’s a little off topic, but very much Mary related.

My uncle passed away last Sunday, it happened to be the feast of the body of Christ, today is his funeral, and it happens to be the feast of the Immaculate heart of Mary, I began a 30 day Marian novena literally 30 days ago to this very day itself. My uncle kept the faith to the very end, and even though his attendance at Mass was lacking, he warmly welcomed prayer together, praying to rosary, reading from scripture, etc. I also gave him a Miraculous Medal when we found out he got sick with cancer, he wore it until the trac, it’s now in his urn and will be buried with him, as you enter his home, in the entrance way is a statue of Mary as well.

Coincidence? I think not, Mary has been working in both of our lives, the timing of it all is incredible, and this is yet another fruit her spirit bears. You guys that shun her existence in our lives in the here and now are missing out on a tremendously wonderful thing, before cutting down the notion of her active presence, before shunning her ability to help, at least for the love of God, make some kind of attempt to open your mind up to the possibility. You will never be disappointed.

 

[panevino]

Psalm 141:2 Let my prayer be set forth before thee [as] incense; [and] the lifting up of my hands [as] the evening sacrifice.

Psalm.148: 2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

Tobit 12:12you. 12 When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayer to the Lord…15 For I am the angel Raphael, one of the seven, who stand before the Lord.

Rev 8:2 And** I saw the seven angels which stood before God**; and to them were given seven trumpets…4 And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. (mat19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory,** ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.)**

Rev5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb,having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Psalm.148: 2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

 

[moondweller]

You have: Divine revelation as revealed in Scripture

We have: Divine revelation as revealed in Scripture

As I’ve pointed out in several of my posts, there is nothing in Scripture that speaks of Mary’s mediatorial position in heaven (only Christ’s), not even her bodily assumption into heaven (only Christ’s).

You are coming into battle barely armed moondweller, for the first 400 years, there was no bible, only fragments of testimony shared mainly orally,

Oh my goodness, Prod, the N.T. Scriptures were all written within the first century and quickly distributed to the churches. In fact the so-called ECFs quoted from them profusely.

we had the church itself to rely upon led by the Holy Spirit, we take your bible away from you, what are you left with to defend your position? Nothing but human conjecture.

If you take my Bible away from me I still have the truth. I’m sorry if you think Biblical knowledge is merely “conjecture.”

Have you ever experienced God in any way outside of the bible? I’m sure you have, it’s not written down in it, so in your mind and logic, you cannot, you must deny your own personal experiences in order to maintain your stance, and you then stand against yourself and your faith in the process.

Actually, my personal experience with God is in harmony with what is revealed about Him in Scripture. I test all other teachings about God by the Scriptures.

If you really want to learn, you are more then welcome to test the spirit of Mary,

I test the spirits by the Scriptures.

see where she leads you,

I am instructed to be led by the Holy Spirit who indwells me. I trust no other lead.

and there is a good reason she’s revered among us Catholic and Protestant believers. Take note, I say “Catholic and Protestant”, Mary is not exclusive to the Catholic faith at all, and it’s only a recent thing that happened with protestants deciding she’s now just part of the faith, the Catholic faith, and since she’s tied in with us, they must reject her.

We don’t reject your Marian doctrines simply because they’re “tied in” with you. There’s simply no Scriptural support for them. As I pointed out in an earlier post, the bodily ascension of the resurrected Christ was eye witnessed by men and they testified to it. But not even ONE person eye witnessed the bodily assumption of Mary (it’s simply asserted). Scripture testifies of the mediatorial and intercessory work of Christ in heaven on behalf of all true believers, but not one word is found in Scripture regarding Mary’s intercessory, heavenly position.

If you really want to put her and yourself to the test, get a rosary and pray it daily for a month,

No need. I have direct access by prayer to my heavenly Father in the name of the Son. One cannot do better than that!

at the end of that month I’m sure you will come around, even if you don’t believe what you are praying, she has a way of working upon us, especially those of us that are particularly hard hear-ted in the process. And where she always leads you is to her son in a deeper and deeper relationship and understanding of him.

I have the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit Himself who indwells me to lead me into a deeper and deeper relationship with Him. Nothing tops those two.

That to the side, I wanted to share something that’s a little off topic, but very much Mary related.

My uncle passed away last Sunday,

I am very sorry for your grief.

it happened to be the feast of the body of Christ, today is his funeral, and it happens to be the feast of the Immaculate heart of Mary, I began a 30 day Marian novena literally 30 days ago to this very day itself. My uncle kept the faith to the very end, and even though his attendance at Mass was lacking, he warmly welcomed prayer together, praying to rosary, reading from scripture, etc. I also gave him a Miraculous Medal when we found out he got sick with cancer, he wore it until the trac, it’s now in his urn and will be buried with him, as you enter his home, in the entrance way is a statue of Mary as well.

Coincidence? I think not, Mary has been working in both of our lives, the timing of it all is incredible, and this is yet another fruit her spirit bears. You guys that shun her existence in our lives in the here and now are missing out on a tremendously wonderful thing, before cutting down the notion of her active presence, before shunning her ability to help, at least for the love of God, make some kind of attempt to open your mind up to the possibility. You will never be disappointed.

I am not called to have an “open mind” but rather, not to be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of my mind, so that I may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect (Rom. 12:2).

As to not being disappointed, Scripture doesn’t lead me to your Mary, but rather to Christ:Rom 9:33 “just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a Stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, and he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”.”

Rom 10:11 “For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

1 Pet 2:6 "For {this} is contained in Scripture: "Behold, I lay in Zion a choice Stone, a precious corner {stone,} and he who believes in Him will not be disappointed."Remember, the Scriptures are theopneustos (God-breathed), and they always lead a person to Christ - not once to Mary.

 

[Good_Fella]

In fact, Mary is not even mentioned once by name in his Epistles or any of the others. And it’s in the Epistles that we’re given the doctrines pertaining to man’s salvation “by grace through faith” (Eph. 2:8).

In fact, it is in the four Gospels that we are initially given “the doctrines pertaining to our salvation” in the words of Jesus Christ himself. The epistles of the apostles do not explicitly affirm everything the apostles orally preached. And given the objectives of their letters and their specific themes addressed to particular Christian communities outside of Palestine in the Roman-Greco world, who by then had not yet made contact with the private traditions of the Judaic Christians, there is no reason for the apostles to broach a theological subject of secondary importance. It would have been premature and indiscreet on their part, since the primary issues of faith first had to established in the pagan world. It was natural for the Jewish converts to make a connection between the Old and New Covenants with regard to Mary, which Luke acknowledged and familiarized Theophilus with in his gospel (cf. Lk 1:1-4).

In fact, after the wedding at Cana we hear nothing from Mary. The wedding marks the beginning of Christ’s earthly ministry as Israel’s Messiah and rightly it must be with Mary as it was with John the Baptist (in his own words):"John 3:30 “He must increase, but I must decrease.” Her job was to raise that child to adulthood. Her job was done.

St. John records Mary standing at the foot of the cross intimately sharing in the suffering of her divine Son and the satisfaction he makes to the Father for our sins by his suffering and death. From the cross our Lord addresses his mother as Woman just as he did at Cana where he began his ministry. Mary is present at the beginning and end of his ministry in accordance with her unique role in the economy of salvation. He confirms her position in the divine order of redemption as the universal spiritual mother of us all: the new Eve, helpmate of the new Adam. Both Mary and John do decrease at the appointed times, but they do not become passive spectators in the work of salvation. The Baptist continued to preach and baptize after he encountered Jesus at the river Jordan until he suffered a martyr’s death. Mary waited in the shadow of the Cross until her spiritual martyrdom was to happen as prophesied by Simeon (Lk 2:35). Finally, St. Luke records in Acts Mary being present at the cenacle with the apostles in prayer before the descent of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost Sunday. Here again she serves as a channel of divine grace in collaboration with the Holy Spirit who overshadowed her at the Annunciation. Our Lord wills that our prayers be joined with his mother’s for their spontaneous efficacy. Mary’s universal mediation began at the instant she pronounced her* fiat* with the angel Gabriel as her witness, and it has continued ever since.

To be continued… :tiphat:

 

[prodigalson12]

As I’ve pointed out in several of my posts, there is nothing in Scripture that speaks of Mary’s mediatorial position in heaven (only Christ’s), not even her bodily assumption into heaven (only Christ’s).Oh my goodness, Prod, the N.T. Scriptures were all written within the first century and quickly distributed to the churches. In fact the so-called ECFs quoted from them profusely.

Totally wrong, we had fragments, some books written, others not written yet, we had many gospels that floated around, many of which never made it into the final universal cannon.,

If you take my Bible away from me I still have the truth.

What truth, you no longer have the word to draw upon, no apostolistic succession of leaders, no tradition, just some people that decide they want to stand behind the pulpet. That’s all you have to draw upon, and without their bibles, they have no ground to stand upon. We have this thing that started with Christ himself, and the line has not been broken.

I’m sorry if you think Biblical knowledge is merely "conjecture.

You just broke TOS with that statement, I never told you that I think the bible is conjecture. It’s the inspired teachings from God, it’s not the ONLY teachings he gave us, and this is what you don’t understand. It’s like building a model with 1/2 a tube of glue and only part of the plans, you can only go so far before you have to give up.

"Actually, my

And this where you go wrong, it’s not about me, I, or yourself

personal experience with God is in harmony with what is revealed about Him in Scripture. I test all other teachings about God by the Scriptures.I test the spirits by the Scriptures.I am instructed to be led by the Holy Spirit who indwells me.

You failed at understading the results of the tests, or you were drawing upon the wrong spirit, the human one

I trust no other lead.

And here is the “I” statement again

We don’t reject your Marian doctrines simply because they’re “tied in” with you. There’s simply no Scriptural support for them.

Luther didn’t have problem with it, read the other posters statement more on that one, you are protesting protestantism at this stage.

As I pointed out in an earlier post, the bodily ascension of the resurrected Christ was eye witnessed by men and they testified to it. But not even ONE person eye witnessed the bodily assumption of Mary (it’s simply asserted). Scripture testifies of the mediatorial and intercessory work of Christ in heaven on behalf of all true believers, but not one word is found in Scripture regarding Mary’s intercessory

Not everything that exists and happens is written in the bible, always know that, this is why we have the church

, heavenly position.No need. I have direct access by prayer to my heavenly Father in the name of the Son. One cannot do better than that!I have the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit Himself who indwells me to lead me into a deeper and deeper relationship with Him. Nothing tops those two.I am very sorry for your grief.I am not called to have an “open mind” but rather, not to be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of my mind, so that I may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect (Rom. 12:2).

I see very much the world within you, it’s written to thyne own self be true, you are not being honest with yourself and are being deceived by your pride.

As to not being disappointed, Scripture doesn’t lead me to your Mary, but rather to Christ:Rom 9:33 “just as it is written, "Behold, I lay in Zion a Stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, and he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”."

Rom 10:11 “For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

1 Pet 2:6 "For {this} is contained in Scripture: "Behold, I lay in Zion a choice Stone, a precious corner {stone,} and he who believes in Him will not be disappointed."Remember, the Scriptures are theopneustos (God-breathed), and they always lead a person to Christ - not once to Mary.

Again, you have just part of the truth, taking things out of context, bits and pieces with no references, classical protestant debate material, I can snip pieces from the bible and make it say any thing I want it to if you want to go that route:

Matthew 27:5

So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

Luke 10:37
." Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

So, in an amusing manner, going to put this thinking back your direction here, doing the snip and paste tells us to go and hang ourselves…

 

[moondweller]

In fact, it is in the four Gospels that we are initially given “the doctrines pertaining to our salvation” in the words of Jesus Christ himself. The epistles of the apostles do not explicitly affirm everything the apostles orally preached.

In the four “Gospel” accounts we primarily see Jesus as the object of eternal life, most especially in John’s account. We don’t get the soteriological doctrines directly pertaining to the cross, such as the forgiveness of all sins, redemption, reconciliation, propitiation, etc. until the Epistles. One could not teach on what Christ accomplished, once for all, on the cross until after that glorious event occurred. And then it had to be Divinely revealed. One could not know what was happening to Christ simply by seeing Him hang there. Even His Disciples were distraught afterward. After He rose from the dead He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures (Lk. 24:25-27, 45). And for 40 days after that He taught them (Acts 1:3). And then Paul was taken up to the third heaven where he was told many things (2 Cor. 12:1ff).

St. John records Mary standing at the foot of the cross intimately sharing in the suffering of her divine Son and the satisfaction he makes to the Father for our sins by his suffering and death.

It’s literally impossible for Mary to have shared in the suffering of Christ on the cross - she played no part in His bearing in his body the world’s sins (1 Pet. 2:24; cf. Is. 53; Jn. 1:29). To make such a statement leads me to believe you don’t understand what Christ actually experienced there on the cross, or the purpose of it.

Hey G.F., you’re writing your own Bible. There’s only ONE. There’ll only be ONE.

 

[prodigalson12]

Saw you responded to the other poster Moon, but not mine, I hope you are putting some thought into what I’m telling you. I’m far more interested in the state of your soul then proving my points. I will keep you in my prayers, know that is a given.

 

[panevino]

posted by moondweller.
As I’ve pointed out in several of my posts, there is nothing in Scripture that speaks of Mary’s mediatorial position in heaven (only Christ’s),

the martyred saints, CLEARLY discuss with Jesus the lives of those on earth, the angels and the elders are shown to hold and or offer the prayers of saints on earth,
the psalms verse clearly shows an awareness of this offering and also show a earthly calling on angels to praise god. This is a the level of participation UNDER/(subserviant to) Jesus the sole mediator , that I believe Mary His earhtly mother also particpates in. Just as she did on earth at the wedding at Cana(ie water to wine) .

not even her bodily assumption into heaven (only Christ’s).

I know you disagree but I believe Mary is shown Bodily in heaven rev12:1.with, the church shown separately as the believers who hold testimony of Jesus in rev 12:17.

Oh my goodness, Prod, the N.T. Scriptures were all written within the first century and quickly distributed to the churches. In fact the so-called ECFs quoted from them profusely.

Don’t forget other writtings were also distibuted, quoted and read.
such as Clement 1 and shepard of hermas, didache . Someone eventually had to agree which ones they would stick to for the NT.
Then of course there is the various times they quoted the Septuagint and the deutrocanonicals, including references to Wisdom in Clement 1.
So this early church that profusely quoted the current NT books also quoted other early writtings and deutros, including polycarp (a student of John) who quotes from Tobit, the book that refers to the angel Raphael offering a prayer of saints before the lord(as reflected in Revelation by the 7angels and elders)

 

[poetryforjesus]

.It’s literally impossible for Mary to have shared in the suffering of Christ on the cross - she played no part in His bearing in his body the world’s sins (1 Pet. 2:24; cf. Is. 53; Jn. 1:29). To make such a statement leads me to believe you don’t understand what Christ actually experienced there on the cross, or the purpose of it.

Hey G.F., you’re writing your own Bible. There’s only ONE. There’ll only be ONE.

Hello Moondweller, you are refusing to listen to the scripture references Good fellow gives you. How about this quote from the Bible?
**
Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign that is spoken against (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.** (Luke 2:35) Emphasized the underlined part.

This is the prophesy given by Simeon in the temple when Mary presented the Child Jesus to God. You are saying that it’s impossible Mary shared Her Son’s suffering? Even your common sense will tell you that it is impossible for a good mother to not share in the suffering of her son. If you reject this possibility, you not only reject common sense but also scripture prophesy.

Good fellow also gives you Biblical evidence to show that Mary was always there for Jesus’ work in the Church, from His first miracle, to His death, to Pentacost. He gave a direct refutation to your statement that Mary’s job was done after she raised Jesus to a grown man.

What shallow understanding to think that all God gave to Mary was “a job!” As if all God cares to give us is a job! No, God cares for us so much that He wanted to be part of us, even Son of mankind, even Son of Mary. What God gave to Mary was not a job to do. He gave Mary His very Self to be her Son, for ever and ever, even now in heaven.

Would you tell your own mother that her job was done as soon as she raised you to maturity? Would you tell your own mother that she has no more to do with you after you are grown? If not, then Jesus will never tell His Mother that, either, because Jesus is the most perfect of men. If you show any respect to your own mother, be sure to know that Jesus shows infinitely more to His Mother.

And even if you don’t want to use common sense, as you cannot tolerate any thinking that’s not directly printed in the Bible, at least look at Good fellow’s scripture references about Mary’s presence in Jesus’ ministry. Those references directly tell you that you are wrong.

 

[moondweller]

Saw you responded to the other poster Moon, but not mine,

I have responded to your posts.

I hope you are putting some thought into what I’m telling you. I’m far more interested in the state of your soul then proving my points.

Oh, I think you’re very concerned in “winning” your arguments. As for “proving” your arguments, I’ve pointed out many times that objectively none of you have presented any “proof” concerning Mary’s alleged mediatorial and intercessory position in heaven (no Apostolic teaching). It’s simply asserted. You have no “proof” of her bodily assumption into heaven (no eye witnesses). It’s simply asserted.

As for my soul, it is good. Very good, indeed. It is saved to the uttermost (forever) because I have personally believed in the Person and finished work of Jesus Christ on my behalf. And I know, based on the Scriptures, that He ever lives to make intercession for me (Heb. 7:25). As you can see, my faith is very Christ centered.

I will keep you in my prayers, know that is a given.

If you’re praying that one day I might give myself to Mary as John Paul II did, that I will pray the rosary, or that I will don a scapular; well, seriously, I must be honest with you and inform you that your time in prayer would be wasted. But I would covet your prayers in that I might continue to do as Peter instructed, to grow in the grace and knowledge of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ That to HIM be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity (2 Pet. 3:18). Nothing would make my soul more joyous. :extrahappy:

 

[moondweller]

Hello Moondweller, you are refusing to listen to the scripture references Good fellow gives you. How about this quote from the Bible?

Not at all, I refuse to accept his interpretation. What you don’t understand is that I’m a student of the Bible.

Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign that is spoken against (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed. (Luke 2:35) Emphasized the underlined part.

This states nothing about Mary entering into the sufferings of Christ on the cross. She had nothing to do with bearing the sins of the world. In fact, He was at that time bearing her own sins.

This is the prophesy given by Simeon in the temple when Mary presented the Child Jesus to God. You are saying that it’s impossible Mary shared Her Son’s suffering?

It is impossible for Mary to share in what Christ suffered. When “He made Him who knew no sin {to be} sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” 2 Cor. 5:21). This was Christ’s own burden to bear, and His alone. He, and He alone, was God’s sacrificial Substitute.

Even your common sense will tell you that it is impossible for a good mother to not share in the suffering of her son.

I didn’t say she didn’t feel great grief seeing Him suffering on the cross. But she did not “share” in His suffering (especially spiritual). That is impossible.

Good fellow also gives you Biblical evidence to show that Mary was always there for Jesus’ work in the Church, from His first miracle, to His death, to Pentacost.

Mary was not always with Christ during His earthly ministry (ex. Lk. 8:19-21). She happened to be at the wedding to which both Jesus and His disciples were invited. But there is no evidence at all that she traveled with Him during His earthly ministry.

He gave a direct refutation to your statement that Mary’s job was done after she raised Jesus to a grown man.

He made an assertion, but no objective refutation. G.F. asserts much about Mary but presents nothing truly objective. He pours a LOT into Mary’s words at the wedding, when all she said was “Whatever He says to do, do it.” But Scripture does not reveal that she played a vital part in His ministry. Quite the opposite, in fact.

What shallow understanding to think that all God gave to Mary was “a job!” As if all God cares to give us is a job!

Motherhood is a job. But the day comes for every mother that it’s time to let go. Christ Himself had a job to do, and the time had come.

No, God cares for us so much that He wanted to be part of us, even Son of mankind, even Son of Mary. What God gave to Mary was not a job to do. He gave Mary His very Self to be her Son, for ever and ever, even now in heaven.

Proof? There you go, asserting. Relationships among men are different in the eternal state.

Would you tell your own mother that her job was done as soon as she raised you to maturity?

Frankly, a good mother would know this.

Would you tell your own mother that she has no more to do with you after you are grown?

When Jesus said to John at the foot of the cross, “behold your mother,” Jesus was severing His earthly relationship with Mary. She was now in John’s care. John was assigned to care for her, she was not assigned to care for John. **That’s significant! ** She was brought into his household to be cared for, not he into her’s. That’s significant!

If not, then Jesus will never tell His Mother that, either, because Jesus is the most perfect of men. If you show any respect to your own mother, be sure to know that Jesus shows infinitely more to His Mother.

The Son incarnated, via birth, into this world. Hence, a mother was required. Women bear children. But the Son did not come into this world to acquire an earthly “mother” to take back to heaven with Him. He took on a human body to be a substitutionary sacrifice for the sins of the world. Your sins. Mary’s sins. All our sins. And because of this"…everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins" (Acts 10:43).

 

[Good_Fella]

David didn’t set his mother on a throne. That didn’t happen until Solomon, and then he had no Divine instruction to do it. Solomon also erected many temples on high places for his pagan wives.

The Bible does not record the name of David’s mother, but the Talmud (Baba Bathra, 91 a.) does. Her name was Nitzevet (Nisbeth), the daughter of Adael. The name Nitzevet is from the Hebrew nitzav, meaning “to stand”. We have the source from the Hebrew Bible:

For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also rose nitzbat] upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.
Genesis 37, 7

Solomon may have been the first king of Israel to grant his mother a high place in the administration of his kingdom, which he inherited from his father David. If so, it would be fitting, since Bathsheba was the wife of the king. But according to Judaic tradition, David’s mother accompanied him to his coronation and stayed close ever after to strengthen and counsel him in the face of his enemies and in turbulent times. Anyway, God never chastised Solomon for having placed a throne for his mother next to his and starting an institution that would last for many generations in the kingdom of Judah. Having inherited the throne from his father David, Solomon had the divine right to do so as king, now that God had granted Israel’s desire to have their own king like their neighbours. Saul was anointed king in God’s name by Samuel. I don’t think God was offended by this institution.

In the Bible the name of each Queen Mother of the house of David is given in the introduction of the reign of each king of Judah: 1 Kings 14:21; 15:9-10; 22:42; 2 Kings 12:2; 14:2; 15:2; 15:33; 18:2; 21:2; 21:19; 22:1; 23:31; 23:36; 24:8; 24:18, for instance. Meanwhile, none of Solomon’s wives enjoyed the prerogatives of the Gebirah in his kingdom, the role of counselor and intercessor to the king being the chief ones. The wives - unlike Mary - had only the “job” of bearing and raising children, notably sons who would become eligible to assume the throne and succeed their father. The Queen Mother was the most important woman in the kingdom of Judah and exercised the greatest influence over her son the king. This institution was not practiced in the northern kingdom of Israel which was ruled by nine ruling houses or dynasties. But it was out of Judah that the Messiah would come to the world. It would appear that God willed and even inspired Solomon to place a throne for his mother next to his in anticipation of Mary’s Divine Maternity and universal role of Queen Mother in the kingdom of heaven.

The people of Tyre will sue your favor with gifts, the richest of people with all kinds of wealth. I will cause your name to be celebrated in all generations; therefore, the people will praise you forever and ever.
Psalm 45, 12,17

“Behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed. For the Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name.”
Luke 1, 48-49

Mary is the Matriarch and the free woman of promise of the New Covenant. She fulfills the role of Sarah, the Matriarch and the free woman of promise of the Old Covenant. Because she was to give birth to Isaac, who foreshadows Christ, God told Abraham that Sarai should now be called Sarah. In ancient Hebrew Sarai means “princess” and Sarah means “exalted princess”. A princess is exalted by becoming a queen. Not unlike Sarah, a precursor to the Gebirah, Mary was exalted to queenship by virtue of her son, not her husband.

To be cont… :tanning:

 

[moondweller]

“Behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed. For the Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name.”
Luke 1, 48-49

Again, lots and lots and lots of assertions in your post, but no Apostolic or Scriptural teachings to back them up. No Divine revelation. Why is that? It says all generations will call her “blessed” (by virtue of being chosen to give birth to the Messiah - it’s a Jewish thing. It’s why among Jewish women it was a disgrace to be childless), but not “mother” or “queen.” You go beyond what is written.

Mary is the Matriarch and the free woman of promise of the New Covenant. She fulfills the role of Sarah, the Matriarch and the free woman of promise of the Old Covenant. Because she was to give birth to Isaac, who foreshadows Christ, God told Abraham that Sarai should now be called Sarah. In ancient Hebrew Sarai means “princess” and Sarah means “exalted princess”. A princess is exalted by becoming a queen.

She fulfills the “role” of Sarah? Where is the person of Sarah described as a prophecy needing a fulfillment? Paul’s use of allegory in Galatians was to stress the difference between being under law and being under grace during this church age. You go beyond what is written.

Not unlike Sarah, a precursor to the Gebirah, Mary was exalted to queenship by virtue of her son, not her husband.

Proof?

 

[prodigalson12]

I have responded to your posts.Oh,** I think** you’re very concerned in “winning” your arguments. As for “proving” your arguments, I’ve pointed out many times that objectively none of you have presented any “proof” concerning Mary’s alleged mediatorial and intercessory position in heaven (no Apostolic teaching). It’s simply asserted. You have no “proof” of her bodily assumption into heaven (no eye witnesses). It’s simply asserted.

As for my soul, it is good. Very good, indeed. It is saved to the uttermost (forever) because** I** have personally believed in the Person and finished work of Jesus Christ on my behalf. And I know, based on the Scriptures, that He ever lives to make intercession for me (Heb. 7:25). As you can see, my faith is very Christ centered.If you’re praying that one day I might give myself to Mary as John Paul II did, that I will pray the rosary, or that I will don a scapular; well, seriously,** I** must be honest with you and inform you that your time in prayer would be wasted. But** I** would covet your prayers in that** I** might continue to do as Peter instructed, to grow in the grace and knowledge of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ That to HIM be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity (2 Pet. 3:18). Nothing would make my soul more joyous. :extrahappy:

You didn’t answer my responses with anything, zero substance, if you are are going to debate the issue, debate the “whole” thing, not just bits and pieces you think you have answers for. Take note, the “I’s” are in bold to prove my point here.

And you call yourself a student of the bible, how about the author himself and his church, this is what you compare yourself to:

Who covereth thyself with light as a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain: Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind: Who maketh his angels spirits: his ministers a flaming fire: Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever. ~Psalms 104:2-5

This one really stands out in your case:

Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets: She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying, How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? ~Proverbs 1:20-22

And why you simply cannot understand what we are trying to teach you:

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. ~John 3:8

More quotes to help you wrap your mind around what’s being discussed here:

For we walk by faith, not by sight. ~II Corinthians 5:7

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. ~Hebrews 11:1

Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. ~James 3:5-6

For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. ~James 3:7-8

I have over two thousand years of understandings behind me, which is the result of relying upon the church, and you come here telling me that you some how in your tiny little lifespan, managed to totally debunk it all, and have wisdom beyond the ages? Come on now, we are a bit inflated with ourselves aren’t we???

Your soul, it’s not saved forever, you may have entered into a state of salvation, as in, it’s an ongoing thing, at any point in time, you can easily lose this grace:

Galatians 5:4
Those of you who are trying to be justified by the law have been cut off from the Messiah. You have fallen away from grace.

Take note here, they have “fallen away from grace” as in the context, they had it at one point, they no longer have it any more…

 

[prodigalson12]

Again, lots and lots and lots of assertions in your post, but no Apostolic or Scriptural teachings to back them up. No Divine revelation. Why is that? It says all generations will call her “blessed” (by virtue of being chosen to give birth to the Messiah - it’s a Jewish thing. It’s why among Jewish women it was a disgrace to be childless), but not “mother” or “queen.” You go beyond what is written.She fulfills the “role” of Sarah? Where is the person of Sarah described as a prophecy needing a fulfillment? Paul’s use of allegory in Galatians was to stress the difference between being under law and being under grace during this church age. You go beyond what is written.Proof?

Hate to burst your bubble here, but how many women in the bible have this very thing written about them…well, one, Mary, don’t you think there is a reason it’s written in her case, and her case alone? Nothing written if frivolous, and you yourself, just went beyond what was written down in the first place with that statement, at least obey your own rules if you want to play this game…,