How Free is our Free-Will?

[GodLovesTheSpek]

Free enough to send unfortunate souls to hell for eternity.

And

Free enough to send those through God’s grace to everlasting joy.

Two paths are set before you o’ man…

Choose wisely.

 

[Michael_David]

Michael, can you elaborate on this? The differences between normal sane living and addictions …

Even in normal sane living, wouldn’t you agree that we are constantly beset by concupisence? life is a BEACH … lol

what was that saying about "take my yoke … my way is easy and my burden light?

Normal sane implies a reasoned approach to what one does… and yes, temptation is there. I see it as more being in tune with the ‘how’ we want to live because of the ‘why’. The more ‘in tune’ one is, the easier it is to resist everyday temptations.

With addiction, once one can call it that, one starts to favor, or side with, that which will do one harm, physically, domestically, socially, spiritually and other ways… and one ‘knows’ it will… but has lost the will to resist it. Although, throughout the cycles of doing it and coming off it, one vacillates between never wanting to do that again, and doing that again. The resolve is not long lasting the more one does it, weakening the will more. One becomes ‘tuned in’ to another’s call… rather then God’s.

 

[jkiernan56]

Normal sane implies a reasoned approach to what one does… and yes, temptation is there. I see it as more being in tune with the ‘how’ we want to live because of the ‘why’. The more ‘in tune’ one is, the easier it is to resist everyday temptations.

With addiction, once one can call it that, one starts to favor, or side with, that which will do one harm, physically, domestically, socially, spiritually and other ways… and one ‘knows’ it will… but has lost the will to resist it. Although, throughout the cycles of doing it and coming off it, one vacillates between never wanting to do that again, and doing that again. The resolve is not long lasting the more one does it, weakening the will more. One becomes ‘tuned in’ to another’s call… rather then God’s.

Thank you for that explanation. I would like to think and ponder on it a little more before getting back to you.

 

[JEANNIEMAC]

I was at a friend’s house, started having a coughing spell, and had to step outside. When I returned, a priest who was at the party came over to me and asked, “Are you alright?” As I started to reply, he lightly placed his fingertips on either side of my throat and said, “Jesus heals.” A flush of heat started in my throat and started to spread through my chest. I thought, “I’ve read about this. This is a healing. But, I don’t want to stop smoking.”
As soon as I thought that, the heat stopped. God would not go against my free will.
Free Will means we are free to do God’s will.Or not.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by jkiernan56
PJM, I used to think what you stated here, but over the years I have come to a different understanding about God’s jealousy from reading CS Lewis The Problem of Pain. I honestly think that God demands (and not just expects) that we use His gifts in the way He intends. Not because God is a grumpy ogrish Dictator that enjoys bossing us around. I am beginning to understand God’s love in a new way. God loves us so much that He cannot accept anything less beautiful in us other than the image of Christ - His Firstborn Son. How God accomplishes that is through the cross in each of our lives … dying and rising with Christ … putting off the old and putting on the new … allowing God’s love and grace to purify us … to be His beautiful Bride … and I hate to say it … but I know from personal experience that some of the pain we go through in life is Divinely ordained for our good. I am beginning to learn that what I understand about love is not God’s understanding of love. His Love cannot allow anything impure or ugly in our lives. God is a Jealous God because of His Love for us … and Gods Love DEMANDS that we be conformed to the image of Christ. Ouchhhhhh… lol … I don’t like pain

My dear friend in Christ,

For the record I’m in complete agreement with you.

When I respond and share our Faith, I usually know very little about whom I am responding too, and therefore, try to get profound issues understandable.

Your post is correct and quite beautiful. Thank you

 

[PJM]

taylor007;4736153]i must say that ur example sounds a little crude,we have a different case when we are dealing with God.u said that despite me knowing that the accident was abt to happen,i couldnt do any thing abt it.yes ,i didnt do anything cause i was incapable of doing something that would have prevented the accident.had i been capable of doing something,do u think i would stand and enjoy the scene ?

Sorry, my mistake:blush:

The point that I was trying to make is that God is “all and only good.” Therefore God can’t cause anything “bad” or “evil.” And yet we know that both exist.

God’s role in these happenings is to **“permit them to happen,” **with consequences not so different from your helpless feeling “on top of the roof.” The only difference is not how we and God feels about it, but only the fact, that God possessing everything good, is also “all-powerful” and has the power and ability to prevent evil and bad things from happening.Sometimes we don’t. Often we do.

God chooses “not to” because in doing so God would be nullifying His gifts to us of freewill, intellect, mind,and soul. Something God will not do, as it would be against His very Nature as God.

God can and does tolerate (permits) bad and evil for two reasons:

1. For our possible sanctifcation. We can always say NO to God.
2. For God’s Glorification.

For the record. Catholics understand that that Heaven and Hell are Real, as shown by the Bible, and that it not God, NO it is us… you and me who decide where we will spend eternitiy

i couldnt properly understand your reasons for God permitting evil.i would be grateful if u could kindly explain that part.

It has to do with the very reasons God gives us the gifts of intellect, will, mind and soul.

If there were no evil. no possibility of evil, or illness, there would be no need for our minds, intellects and freewills (We can always say NO to God ) The reason why God wishes us not to, and to do what is right and good, is to prove to God that we love Him.

God already knows this but DESIRES that we do do it anyway

Why? God who is “all perfect” cannot be further perfected, and does not actually benefit in anyway from our love, except that it CONFORMS to His Divine Will.

It is we, you and me, who benefit! We have learned a bit more about loving so that it becomes easier, and we have stregthened our personal relationship with God!

It’s a duality of “permits.”

God permits these things to happen.
And permits us to apply properly (or (name removed by moderator)roperly) His gifts to us for the two reasons stataed above.

Everything that happens, everyone we meet is an opportunity to grow closer to God, by making good decessions and saying YES TO GOD!

now the question abt if iam an atheist.i was born to catholic parents and baptized in a catholic church.and i believe that if anything makes sense ,its catholic principles.but i wouldnt want to be a blind believer ,one who believes without questioning.blind belief would be without a base.and i apologize for spelling God with a small g.

Taylor, my friend, I have no doubt that if we were to meet face to face that we could be really good friends.

I’m here for ya! Ask away.

Your on the right track, keep praying, going to Mass nad asking these really great questions!

If you want you can send me “personal messages” and know that I will reply to them for you

God bless you Taylor!

 

[cajunrick]

… are you completely free in the actions that you choose? Or are the actions that you choose due to earlier cause-effect influences?

Our choices are certainly influenced by earlier decisions. For example, I can choose to go to a fast food restaurant and have a hamburger. If, however, I previously chose to murder someone and am now incarcerated in a prison, I no longer have that free choice. My current choices are definitely influenced and controlled by my earlier choices.

God knows what we will choose, but that does not take away our ability to make the choice. I know that if you hold a loaded gun to your temple and pull the trigger you will kill yourself, but that does not take away your choice to do it. Every parent has struggled with the certain knowledge that our children will make mistakes that we could prevent, but we let them make those mistakes because it is the only way they will learn. God faces the same dilemma. God allows us to make mistakes to give us the opportunity to learn.

 

[PEPCIS]

Our choices are certainly influenced by earlier decisions. For example, I can choose to go to a fast food restaurant and have a hamburger. If, however, I previously chose to murder someone and am now incarcerated in a prison, I no longer have that free choice. My current choices are definitely influenced and controlled by my earlier choices.

I think that you have correctly observed the state of man - he has no free will. Certainly not in the way that we think of “free”.

Everyday, the choices that OTHER people make effect us in ways that modify the choices we make. True freedom would be to have unfettered access to our desires, to do what we want to do when we want to do it, in the manner in which we most want to do it in.

While we make the choices we make, they are imperfect choices based on imperfect circumstances. Only God has perfect choices, because He has perfect freedom.

 

[cajunrick]

I think that you have correctly observed the state of man - he has no free will. Certainly not in the way that we think of “free”.

Not in the way that you appear to be thinking of as “free”. I am not free to chose to levitate myself to the moon. As a male, I am not free to chose to bear a child. I am not free to build a car and drive it at 200 miles per hour without consequences.

I am, however, free to chose among reasonable, available options.

So no, I am not free to make any choice. I am, however, free to make any possible choice given the circumstances of my own existence.

 

[PEPCIS]

Not in the way that you appear to be thinking of as “free”. I am not free to chose to levitate myself to the moon.

This is a limitation. Limitations, no matter what their origination, directly effect our choices. In this instance, your CHOICES are LIMITED by your abilities.

As a male, I am not free to chose to bear a child.

You ARE free to desire that. There are definitely men (not transvestites) who desire to become pregnant, but are limited by their abilities. Any limitation to any part of man’s will, is a limitation to his freedom of exercising that will.

I am not free to build a car and drive it at 200 miles per hour without consequences.

LOL I love how you add the prepositional phrase on the end of that sentence - “without consequences.” Anyways, who says that there has to be any consequences? While all actions have corresponding consequences, there is no need to believe that driving at 200 miles an hour will result in negative consequences. As a matter of fact, there are a lot of men (and some women) who are making a lot of money by driving that fast.

I am, however, free to chose among reasonable, available options.

Not everyone is as content as you.

So no, I am not free to make any choice.

You ARE free to make any choice. You are simply LIMITED in which ones you are capable of bringing to fruition. Your CHOICES (ie, your will) is limited as opposed to completely free.

 

[Anita1945]

In John 4.34 it says:My nourishment comes from doing the will of God who sent me. It`s my belief that God has given us a Free Will, so that we can come to Him by our own free will. He doesn’t want his children to be marionettes. But Free Will does not mean that we can do whatever we want to. In Galatians 5.13 it says:For, dear brothers, you have been given freedom:not freedom to do wrong, but freedom to serve and love each other.Freedom means being free to do what is right and good( what God wants), and being free from having to do wrong and evil things. The bible teaches us that we are given this freedom, but we also have to work on ourselves to grow into it fully.

 

[PEPCIS]

In John 4.34 it says:My nourishment comes from doing the will of God who sent me. It`s my belief that God has given us a Free Will, so that we can come to Him by our own free will.

One of the most difficult (if not THE most difficult) part of being a Christian involves rightly dividing the Word of Truth. (II Tim. 2:15) Often, we substitute our beliefs for the simple declarations of God’s Word.

Probably the doctrines that get more defamation than any other involves that of Free Will and the depravity of man. Nobody thinks that they are a “bad” person, and so they think to themselves, “All I have to do is to exercise my free will to outweigh my bad works by my good works, and God will receive me.”

The problem with this doctrine is that it is ALIEN to the Bible. It is called “Legalism” in some places, and in others, it is referred to as a “Works-based system” of salvation.

All of this stems from those three “simple” words, “It’s my belief.”

 

[taylor007]

This is a limitation. Limitations, no matter what their origination, directly effect our choices. In this instance, your CHOICES are LIMITED by your abilities.

You ARE free to desire that. There are definitely men (not transvestites) who desire to become pregnant, but are limited by their abilities. Any limitation to any part of man’s will, is a limitation to his freedom of exercising that will.

LOL I love how you add the prepositional phrase on the end of that sentence - “without consequences.” Anyways, who says that there has to be any consequences? While all actions have corresponding consequences, there is no need to believe that driving at 200 miles an hour will result in negative consequences. As a matter of fact, there are a lot of men (and some women) who are making a lot of money by driving that fast.

Not everyone is as content as you.

You ARE free to make any choice. You are simply LIMITED in which ones you are capable of bringing to fruition. Your CHOICES (ie, your will) is limited as opposed to completely free.

i think you have completely misunderstood the term ‘free will’.i wouldn’t want to repeat it all again,since its already explained in posts 6 and 7.also read the posts on page 4.
cheers

 

[PEPCIS]

i think you have completely misunderstood the term ‘free will’.i wouldn’t want to repeat it all again,since its already explained in posts 6 and 7.also read the posts on page 4.
cheers

Just read my post #73. It says it better.

 

[jkiernan56]

Let’s take a hypothetical. For the sake of discussion, there is a person who is born into a very poor family. The parents of this person are unemployed, on welfare, and have a history of growing up themselves in a family where verbal and physical abuse were prevalent. So in this case, the person we speak of grows up in an environment where they do not feel loved, wanted, they are neglected emotionally and physically. The parents are drug addicts to top it all off.

Is this child really “free” in the decisions they might make as they grow up in this type of environment? Do they have the “right stuff” to make good decisions? Might their decisions be influenced by other factors (other than just the facility to make choices)?

How “free” is their “free-will”?

 

[PJM]

Let’s take a hypothetical. For the sake of discussion, there is a person who is born into a very poor family. The parents of this person are unemployed, on welfare, and have a history of growing up themselves in a family where verbal and physical abuse were prevalent. So in this case, the person we speak of grows up in an environment where they do not feel loved, wanted, they are neglected emotionally and physically. The parents are drug addicts to top it all off.

Is this child really “free” in the decisions they might make as they grow up in this type of environment? Do they have the “right stuff” to make good decisions? Might their decisions be influenced by other factors (other than just the facility to make choices)?

How “free” is their “free-will”?

My dear friend in Christ,

Certainly we are all “products of our environments.” One could add to your story above a situtation were one is born into extreme wealth, with parents whose main concern is making more money, keeping what they have, and surogate the raising of the offspring.
(Conterception failed:blush: )

Are they really alot better off. Perhaps from an education perspective, but not emotionally.

So what is my point. I spent all of my “formitive years” in a Catholic Orphanage, have only a highschool education, and was able to retire at age 62 in Florida. Through the grace of God, very hard work, and making a few good decisions. I have also been married for fourty one years! Certainly my wife gets a BIG share of the credit!

We still live in America, which as of this writting still affords anyone willing to work, and workhard, the opportunity.IF ONE IS WILLING TO PAY THE PRICE, and do what is necessary (does not mean dishonest, immoral, or illegeal) but does mean possible relocation, retraining, starting at the bottom, working in a career field that may be second or third choice, and working harder than those you work with. Success is possible.

Immigrants, legal and otherwise can recount countless success stories.

If someone walks with God and takes advantage of the opportunities presented, by being willing to pay the price to be successful, it is very possible to do so.

We all carry “luggage,” some clean, some dirty, some good and some bad. The rest is excuses for why you can’t, instead of doing what is ethical, but perhaps does not appeal.

Jesus is right: seek and you shall find… Of course we are Free to do what we choose. The moral law and the law of love are written on our hearts. Is is harder for some folks, SURE.

But, but, attitude is key! And we CONTROL our own attitudes

God bless you,

 

[PEPCIS]

Let’s take a hypothetical. For the sake of discussion, there is a person who is born into a very poor family. The parents of this person are unemployed, on welfare, and have a history of growing up themselves in a family where verbal and physical abuse were prevalent. So in this case, the person we speak of grows up in an environment where they do not feel loved, wanted, they are neglected emotionally and physically. The parents are drug addicts to top it all off.

Is this child really “free” in the decisions they might make as they grow up in this type of environment? Do they have the “right stuff” to make good decisions? Might their decisions be influenced by other factors (other than just the facility to make choices)?

How “free” is their “free-will”?

This isn’t much different than what I argued with you on another thread, but you disagreed, so you got me baffled. But as you’ve written it here, your questions lead to the right conclusions that man’s freedom is an illusion, and there are myriad ways in which our choices are effected, and are truly not our own. You’ve just indicated one small way. Now multiply that by hundreds of thousands of influences that occur in a lifetime, and you will only begin to grasp the significance of my meaning when I say that free will is simply an illusion.

It doesn’t mean we don’t exercise our will.

 

[jkiernan56]

My dear friend in Christ,

Certainly we are all “products of our environments.” One could add to your story above a situtation were one is born into extreme wealth, with parents whose main concern is making more money, keeping what they have, and surogate the raising of the offspring.
(Conterception failed:blush: )

Are they really alot better off. Perhaps from an education perspective, but not emotionally.

So what is my point. I spent all of my “formitive years” in a Catholic Orphanage, have only a highschool education, and was able to retire at age 62 in Florida. Through the grace of God, very hard work, and making a few good decisions. I have also been married for fourty one years! Certainly my wife gets a BIG share of the credit!

We still live in America, which as of this writting still affords anyone willing to work, and workhard, the opportunity.IF ONE IS WILLING TO PAY THE PRICE, and do what is necessary (does not mean dishonest, immoral, or illegeal) but does mean possible relocation, retraining, starting at the bottom, working in a career field that may be second or third choice, and working harder than those you work with. Success is possible.

Immigrants, legal and otherwise can recount countless success stories.

If someone walks with God and takes advantage of the opportunities presented, by being willing to pay the price to be successful, it is very possible to do so.

We all carry “luggage,” some clean, some dirty, some good and some bad. The rest is excuses for why you can’t, instead of doing what is ethical, but perhaps does not appeal.

Jesus is right: seek and you shall find… Of course we are Free to do what we choose. The moral law and the law of love are written on our hearts. Is is harder for some folks, SURE.

But, but, attitude is key! And we CONTROL our own attitudes

God bless you,

Oh, we are paying the price alright for all our hard work. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. We can thank our corrupt Politicians and Government in BOTH Parties. What a national disgrace.

 

[AndyF]

jkiernan56:

The choices are being made in an environment that is pre-determined, the deterrent serving as coercion, the reward an enticement.

Curious though. It seems this condition is not an enticement to celestial beings who could just as easily choose to glorify God buy taking on our yoke. I would presume that the statistics, in that no one has ever attained perfection here, is a turn off. It would seem that for them being in proximity and in the presence of God is sufficient “test” to inspire them to have “faith”. For some reason the statistics don’t inspire them to take a second look on our behalf either.

Since so much criticism is conveniently stacked on our “unworthy” shoulders, it avails them nothing in doing so while this undieing question faces them.

“If I were temporarily made human, not knowing who I really am, place my beatific state aside temporarily and stake it has a wager, subject to the regular allotment of graces, struggle on the ladder of maturing Faith and hope, would I be the first to become perfect?”

But Oh what a gift to the glory of God, and Oh what an Inspiration of inspirations for us all if he was succesful. It would be a Gift of gifts.

Ahhh my friend, don’t spend your life waiting. No one up their is fool enough to try it, much more enjoyment crticising us for failure. Front row seats in the bleachers of this roman forum earth, giving thumbs up or down on our behaviour is a much safer existance.

Hot dogs …anyone?

Andy

 

[GodLovesTheSpek]

God knows their circumstances and it is by his mercy that any of us make it to Heaven. As it states: those who have been given much more will be required. It is ours, the Church and the Priests job to find and get these poor souls to heaven.

Having said that, let’s not forget God’s grace and mercy. Even those in the worst of circumstances can still find God’s Love and Truth. That is why we must love and pray for our brothers and sisters. It may seem a cliche these days but we are our brother’s keepers. Pray for the unfortunate, be an example, offer a smile. There are so many ways to convey hope in the midst of dispair.