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holy_moly
Guest
Obviously, you never met mine!I’d say one month covers grandmothers, regardless of denomination
Grandmothers go straight through, you didn’t know that?
Just kidding!
- Status
Just kidding!
B
bookgirl32
Guest
Obviously, you never met mine!
Just kidding!I guess I just meant little white-haired rosy-cheeked grandmothers who bake.
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sodak
Guest
Because God hasn’t chosen to reveal that to his Church yet. The Church can only rule definitively on that which has been revealed to it.
I would have thought that would have been obvious.
To paraphrase some of your earlier comments, if Protestants are SO SURE that their faith justifies them, then why can’t they tell us how many angels can dance upon the head of a pin?
To a Catholic, your question is that ridiculous.
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Padrej
Guest
I think the real “theological” problem I have with this if if Christ gave the power to the Church to bind and loose things (sin) (the power to forgive) and the Priest’s give absolution and we believe, our sins are GONE, do we not have the same power under this bind and loose to say “yes Sam is in heaven but Mary is doing a week in Purgatory.” That is my theological question?
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Padrej
Guest
You don’t know how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? As many as they want to on the dance night?
Baptist angels don’t dance though.
On the level:
I would think that this question of time in Purgatory would be seriously asked by now? And is the church REALLY seeking the Holy Spirit’s guidance in this matter?
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sodak
Guest
Good point, I should have qualified my question properly!You don’t know how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? As many as they want to on the dance night?
Baptist angels don’t dance though.
The Church is certainly seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit in all matters that will bring people to Christ and therefore Salvation. Whether this is one of those matters, or just a fun one to talk about, I don’t know.On the level:
I would think that this question of time in Purgatory would be seriously asked by now? And is the church REALLY seeking the Holy Spirit’s guidance in this matter?
I’ve heard all sorts of theological speculation as whether or not time has any meaning after death, and what is time in Purgatory v.s. time on earth. It’s all speculation.
Jesus often said confusing things to his Disciples, and sometimes explained them, sometimes he let them work it out, or let the Holy Spirit clear it up. Sometimes through inspiration, sometimes working through other people. Maybe this isn’t something that God feels we need to know, I don’t know. I wish I knew, but if it’s one of those things that we will not know until we’re dead, then I hope God takes his time…
When in doubt, I remember. St. Faustina’s prayer - “Jesus, I trust in you.”
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Javl
Guest
Don’t Baptist angels know how to dance, or are they forbidden to do so? Just curious.You don’t know how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? As many as they want to on the dance night?
Baptist angels don’t dance though.
On the level:
I would think that this question of time in Purgatory would be seriously asked by now? And is the church REALLY seeking the Holy Spirit’s guidance in this matter?
As for the time spent in Purgatory, only God knows and determines that. It can be compared to a judge determining time spent by a criminal in jail, only he knows and determines that. ( Yes, I know that a judge goes according to a list. Maybe God does too, but He hasn’t released that list to us. So how can we know? )
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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Padrej
Guest
Don’t Baptist angels know how to dance, or are they forbidden to do so? Just curious.
** I make light of Baptist because they take themselves so seriously (Once save always save, King James only etc.) they usually forbid dancing, so I would suspect if there was a Baptist angel it wouldn’t dance.**
As for the time spent in Purgatory, only God knows and determines that. It can be compared to a judge determining time spent by a criminal in jail, only he knows and determines that. ( Yes, I know that a judge goes according to a list. Maybe God does too, but He hasn’t released that list to us. So how can we know? )
That is why I posted the question that if Christ allowed the Church the authority to retain and loose sins I would think that would carry over in that area as well. I makes LOGICAL sense to me.
On the other hand the Bible also tells us that God does not keep a record of our sins so I would think that there is no score card particularly if we serve a merciful God. I would also think that a purification would also be merciful too with that in mind.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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Padrej
Guest
Be careful then with the “I trust you” a Protestant might say well if you trust Jesus then He has already made you clean, that is what scripture says.Good point, I should have qualified my question properly!
The Church is certainly seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit in all matters that will bring people to Christ and therefore Salvation. Whether this is one of those matters, or just a fun one to talk about, I don’t know.
I’ve heard all sorts of theological speculation as whether or not time has any meaning after death, and what is time in Purgatory v.s. time on earth. It’s all speculation.
Jesus often said confusing things to his Disciples, and sometimes explained them, sometimes he let them work it out, or let the Holy Spirit clear it up. Sometimes through inspiration, sometimes working through other people. Maybe this isn’t something that God feels we need to know, I don’t know. I wish I knew, but if it’s one of those things that we will not know until we’re dead, then I hope God takes his time…
When in doubt, I remember. St. Faustina’s prayer - “Jesus, I trust in you.”
Seriously I love that chalet: the Divine Mercy chaplet Of all of the chaplets Of the RC church that has to be my favorite. Next to that is the 5 wound. I used to make those for a RC apostolate with the blessing of the local Cardinal. I also distributed those to the Benedictine order that I am an oblate of. GREAT for Lent.
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sodak
Guest
Indeed! Bible bingo is always fun to play with Protestants, I would probably offer the rejoinder that Scripture also tells us that we are justified by our works, not faith. It’s always fun to watch that particular dance begin…Be careful then with the “I trust you” a Protestant might say well if you trust Jesus then He has already made you clean, that is what scripture says.
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bookgirl32
Guest
No, because there is no way to see inside the mind of an individual and be absolutely certain that they confessed aboslutely everything to a priest. The priest can be certain that a particular sin is forgiven because it has been confessed. The priest cannot be certain that all sins are forgiven because the priest cannot be certain that all sins have been confessed. And considering that Purgatory also deals with the temporal effects of venial sin, which does not require confession to be forgiven (not to say they shouldn’t be confessed, they should), there is no way for any other human to know for certain exactly what sins exist on the soul of any other human being.
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Padrej
Guest
To your reply I would offer that there were many doctors and saints of the church who knew when a person was making a good confession or not and if they had confessed “all.” Padre Pio for example is my favorite in that area would tell persons in confession “what about … that you did?” I feel that God does allow certain of His ministers the gift of cardioknosis to know the condition of the heart, so to say that there is no way for another human to know, I don’t totally buy that one.
To the rest of the priests we do have to go one blind faith and the guidance of the holy spirit and the conviction of the person coming into the confessional and the convictions of that is given to the priest hearing the confession.
Considering that Christ gave the power to the Church to bind and loose and He also said that when “God sets you free you are free indeed,” I would think that would cover temporal effects also.
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Nathan_Wagar
Guest
"To your reply I would offer that there were many doctors and saints of the church who knew when a person was making a good confession or not and if they had confessed “all.” Padre Pio for example is my favorite in that area would tell persons in confession “what about … that you did?” I feel that God does allow certain of His ministers the gift of cardioknosis to know the condition of the heart, so to say that there is no way for another human to know, I don’t totally buy that one.
To the rest of the priests we do have to go one blind faith and the guidance of the holy spirit and the conviction of the person coming into the confessional and the convictions of that is given to the priest hearing the confession.
Considering that Christ gave the power to the Church to bind and loose and He also said that when “God sets you free you are free indeed,” I would think that would cover temporal effects also."
Response: Nope. Read the Psalms, about how David was set “free.” And yet, he experienced temporal punishment. In the context of a familial relationship rather than a Judicial setting, being “set free” merely means that you are no longer in a state of mortal sin. You are not “serving two masters,” you are in the family of God. God’s kids still get spankings; God’s kids still have to scrub before Sunday dinner. You may be set free but God may still have to correct what started the problem (concupiscence) in the first place, yes?
And you still haven’t wiggled out of my exegesis if 1Cor. 3:15. It’s NOT just the “works” that are judged. According to the Greek, the *man **himself *suffers loss *if *his works are not up to par. And he is saved but as through fire. Notice there are three categories of people here. Those that are destroyed, those that make it immediately into heaven, and those that do, but suffer loss through the fire. You can’t try to tell me that the “suffering loss” refers to “well, he just lost his works,” because “suffering loss” appears in the specific context of *punishment *in other places, particularly the OT of the Greek Septuagint.
Add to that the fact that it would seem quite plain that Paul prayed the Lord would have *mercy *on a *dead **man *that was a believer, all the other Scripture passages, the Jewish cultural understanding, you see where I’m going with this. “I am Yahweh and I change not.” You can’t even begin to use that “oh that was the OT” argument He doesn’t abolish, He fulfills.
God Bless.
To the rest of the priests we do have to go one blind faith and the guidance of the holy spirit and the conviction of the person coming into the confessional and the convictions of that is given to the priest hearing the confession.
Considering that Christ gave the power to the Church to bind and loose and He also said that when “God sets you free you are free indeed,” I would think that would cover temporal effects also."
Response: Nope. Read the Psalms, about how David was set “free.” And yet, he experienced temporal punishment. In the context of a familial relationship rather than a Judicial setting, being “set free” merely means that you are no longer in a state of mortal sin. You are not “serving two masters,” you are in the family of God. God’s kids still get spankings; God’s kids still have to scrub before Sunday dinner. You may be set free but God may still have to correct what started the problem (concupiscence) in the first place, yes?
And you still haven’t wiggled out of my exegesis if 1Cor. 3:15. It’s NOT just the “works” that are judged. According to the Greek, the *man **himself *suffers loss *if *his works are not up to par. And he is saved but as through fire. Notice there are three categories of people here. Those that are destroyed, those that make it immediately into heaven, and those that do, but suffer loss through the fire. You can’t try to tell me that the “suffering loss” refers to “well, he just lost his works,” because “suffering loss” appears in the specific context of *punishment *in other places, particularly the OT of the Greek Septuagint.
Add to that the fact that it would seem quite plain that Paul prayed the Lord would have *mercy *on a *dead **man *that was a believer, all the other Scripture passages, the Jewish cultural understanding, you see where I’m going with this. “I am Yahweh and I change not.” You can’t even begin to use that “oh that was the OT” argument
He doesn’t abolish, He fulfills.God Bless.
J
Javl
Guest
padrej:
Thanks for your answer on the angels. Reminds me of a story about a ragged bum that was ushered out of a Baptist Church. He sat down on the steps next to a man who
said: “It’s alright, I’m Jesus and I’ve also been ushered out” !
Anyway, as far as purgatory goes, I agree with you on your statement. But, since I’m no
theologian, I will leave that up to the “minds” to determine an answer. Meanwhile, I do know that nothing unclean can enter Heaven and Jesus also said that every last penny
must be paid. This is my reason for believing in Purgatory. ( and again, it is a developed
definition of the Jewish belief in a Holding Place. The Jews still do Kadish: Prayers for the
dead ). God Bless.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
Thanks for your answer on the angels. Reminds me of a story about a ragged bum that was ushered out of a Baptist Church. He sat down on the steps next to a man who
said: “It’s alright, I’m Jesus and I’ve also been ushered out” !
Anyway, as far as purgatory goes, I agree with you on your statement. But, since I’m no
theologian, I will leave that up to the “minds” to determine an answer. Meanwhile, I do know that nothing unclean can enter Heaven and Jesus also said that every last penny
must be paid. This is my reason for believing in Purgatory. ( and again, it is a developed
definition of the Jewish belief in a Holding Place. The Jews still do Kadish: Prayers for the
dead ). God Bless.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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Padrej
Guest
Good point, However, If God does not change, then why are we not eating Kosher foods but eating regular diets like the Gentiles? I do not see the Kosher dietary laws being abolished, How much shellfish did you eat or bacon or any other pork product? Why are we not celebrating the Jewish holidays? those were never abolished if Christ only fulfilled them. Why are we worshiping on Sunday (the Lord’s Day), the first day of the week and Not Saturday, the Sabbath? Did the Sabbath get abolished? (Now don’t remind me that Catholics offer mas on Saturday night, I know all about the Saturday night special as the local priest calls it)“To your reply I would offer that there were many doctors and saints of the church who knew when a person was making a good confession or not and if they had confessed “all.” Padre Pio for example is my favorite in that area would tell persons in confession “what about … that you did?” I feel that God does allow certain of His ministers the gift of cardioknosis to know the condition of the heart, so to say that there is no way for another human to know, I don’t totally buy that one.
To the rest of the priests we do have to go one blind faith and the guidance of the holy spirit and the conviction of the person coming into the confessional and the convictions of that is given to the priest hearing the confession.
Considering that Christ gave the power to the Church to bind and loose and He also said that when “God sets you free you are free indeed,” I would think that would cover temporal effects also.”
Nope. Read the Psalms, about how David was set “free.” And yet, he experienced temporal punishment. In the context of a familial relationship rather than a Judicial setting, being “set free” merely means that you are no longer in a state of mortal sin. You are not “serving two masters,” you are in the family of God. God’s kids still get spankings; God’s kids still have to scrub before Sunday dinner. You may be set free but God may still have to correct would started the problem (concupiscence) in the first place, yes?
And you still haven’t wiggled out of my exegesis if 1Cor. 3:15. It’s NOT just the “works” that are judged. According to the Greek, the *man **himself *suffers loss *if *his works are not up to par. And he is saved but as through fire. Notice there are three categories of people here. Those that are destroyed, those that make it immediately into heaven, and those that do, but suffer loss through the fire. You can’t try to tell me that the “suffering loss” refers to “well, he just lost his works,” because “suffering loss” appears in the specific context of *punishment *in other places.
Add to that the fact that it would seem quite plain that Paul prayed the Lord would have *mercy *on a *dead **man *that was a believer, all the other Scripture passages, the Jewish cultural understanding, you see where I’m going with this. “I am Yahweh and I change not.” You can’t even begin to use that “oh that was the OT” argument
God Bless.
The point I am trying to make it you are making a literal argument and taking it too far. When I said “the Lord set you free you are free indeed” if you say, “Well you must pay the penalty,” that is trueand I agree with you on all the serving punishment points; BUT If God chooses to let me out of that penalty that is called GRACE and MERCY.
Have the Roman Catholics forgotten that God is also a God of Mercy and Grace??? And that He can show this on whomever He pleases?
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Nathan_Wagar
Guest
And again, you are saying “IF” God chooses to show me grace and mercy. God has already shown quite clearly, however, that sometimes His concept of Mercy involves correction. Sometimes His idea of Mercy is to let us fall into sin to avoid greater sins.
Your method presumes to know a bit too much, I think, about the mind of God. The Catholic knows what has been revealed, and no more. Hence we have Dogma and speculation/opinion. Yes, God CAN choose to relieve you of all punishment, if doing that corrects the spiritual issue. Nobody ever said purgatory or even temporal punishment is ALWAYS necessary.
And you did focus on my statement that says “I am Yahweh and I change not” (His words by the way, don’t shoot the messenger heh), yet you did not look at the other part where it says that Jesus came not to abolish but fulfill.
I would make a VERY hesitant guess that there was no purgatory in the Old, because people were not directly in God’s presence (with the possible exception of some prophets, and judging by their lives they were saints, and suffered quite enough on Earth). And yet EVEN then, they still had concepts of purification. When Jesus made it possible to have access to the Beatific vision, suddenly all those “types” of purgatory became reality, and thus Jesus brought fulfillment even to the *types *of God’s perfect plan, for making perfect His children. We had the ability to actually, truly be in God’s presence, not merely a slightly shadowy existence in a the “limbo of the fathers.” Our wonded spiritual state is refined away as we enter heaven.
This is why I do not argue with Maccabees as a passage from purgatory. I merely use it to refer to a third state, then proceed from there.
When it all comes down to it, no matter how holy the holiest person is, they would flatten out in shame in the presence of the Almighty, due to the awareness of their own wounded state. This inner knowledge means we are not as perfect as Jesus. Then you’re not perfect. Purgatory.
Your method presumes to know a bit too much, I think, about the mind of God. The Catholic knows what has been revealed, and no more. Hence we have Dogma and speculation/opinion. Yes, God CAN choose to relieve you of all punishment, if doing that corrects the spiritual issue. Nobody ever said purgatory or even temporal punishment is ALWAYS necessary.
And you did focus on my statement that says “I am Yahweh and I change not” (His words by the way, don’t shoot the messenger heh), yet you did not look at the other part where it says that Jesus came not to abolish but fulfill.
I would make a VERY hesitant guess that there was no purgatory in the Old, because people were not directly in God’s presence (with the possible exception of some prophets, and judging by their lives they were saints, and suffered quite enough on Earth). And yet EVEN then, they still had concepts of purification. When Jesus made it possible to have access to the Beatific vision, suddenly all those “types” of purgatory became reality, and thus Jesus brought fulfillment even to the *types *of God’s perfect plan, for making perfect His children. We had the ability to actually, truly be in God’s presence, not merely a slightly shadowy existence in a the “limbo of the fathers.” Our wonded spiritual state is refined away as we enter heaven.
This is why I do not argue with Maccabees as a passage from purgatory. I merely use it to refer to a third state, then proceed from there.
When it all comes down to it, no matter how holy the holiest person is, they would flatten out in shame in the presence of the Almighty, due to the awareness of their own wounded state. This inner knowledge means we are not as perfect as Jesus. Then you’re not perfect. Purgatory.
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bookgirl32
Guest
But even with that knowledge, you are speaking of the knowledge at that particular point in the person’s life, correct? Which then, in Catholic theology anyway, would require the person to die on the spot in order for the “cardioknosis” to determine, first, salvation and then the need for purgatory and how much. Those people walk out the door and go on living.
And the conviction of Jesus when He started His Church
.But the Bible doesn’t say that. It says that one must be clean to enter Heaven. Besides, like I said, I consider reaching Purgatory to be “free”. If you reach Purgatory you are saved, period. Being dirty is not not being “free”.
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Javl
Guest
As far as Kosher foods go, didn’t God tell Peter “Do not consider anything unclean that God has declared clean” ( Acts 10:10-15, 11:5-10 )? This applies not only to Gentiles but to those Christian Jews also, and since Jesus fulfilled the law and gave us
two new commandments that covered the old law, and also since He gave us the power to bind and loose, we do not have to keep kosher or worship on Saturday. Besides, for what I know of Hebrew, Sabbath means rest, not Saturday. God Bless.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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Padrej
Guest
**How could you be “free” with all due respect if you are still suffering or being cleansed of sins? How could Purgatory be Freedom then? I agree with you that you must be free to enter into heaven, but do you also agree that the Blood of Christ cleanses you and makes you clean as well? If those who are around the throne in heaven wearing white robes (washed in the blood of the lamb-which by the way you could use as another analogy to say you need Purgatory) are the “saints” redeemed by Christ those I would call “Free.”But even with that knowledge, you are speaking of the knowledge at that particular point in the person’s life, correct? Which then, in Catholic theology anyway, would require the person to die on the spot in order for the “cardioknosis” to determine, first, salvation and then the need for purgatory and how much. Those people walk out the door and go on living.
You are correct on that. point My point was that there are some Doctors and saint of the church who had knowledge to look into the heart to know if a person was confessing all. That is my point. The person before seemed to be implying that nobody ever had such knowledge.
And the conviction of Jesus when He started His Church
The problem is we went out and organized it when He gave it to us in a pure form.
But the Bible doesn’t say that. It says that one must be clean to enter Heaven. Besides, like I said, I consider reaching Purgatory to be “free”. If you reach Purgatory you are saved, period. Being dirty is not not being “free”.
A protestant looks at being “saved” not as reaching Purgatory as you just stated but as putting your whole trust in Christ; as Scripture says, “those who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Now I also know that It also says, “not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter but he who DOES the will of my heavenly father.” so there is a catch so to speak. My Roman Catholic Aunt who is in prison ministry is more concerned with a person’s salvation first, then becoming Catholic. IMO we should all say I am a Christian first and then whatever denomination we belong to second.**
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bookgirl32
Guest
I want to paint this on my forehead so I never have to say it again
)): There are NO sins in Purgatory. Sins are gone-o! Nothing there, all gone, you’re going to Heaven, you’re rejoicing, they’ve been forgiven, they’re completely non-existent.The kind of suffering one goes through in Purgatory is not the same kind of suffering as that in Hell. It’s not a mini-version of Hell before Heaven. It is suffering because you are not yet in Heaven, but you know that’s where you’re going to end up. It’s a suffering filled with love and anticipation, you know, 100%, that you’re headed towards Heaven. It is simply cleaning. Can we get that straight? The sin is gone, the stain from sin is not gone. YOu’re jumping for joy that you made it to Purgatory and at the same time you’re suffering saying, “Shoot, if I just wouldn’t have committed that one, or that one, or that one, I would be cleaner and would already be there.”
Because you’re there, and there is absolutely nothing left for you to do. Freedom! Freedom doesn’t equal Heaven.
It made us able to be clean in God’s grace. Before His sacrifice, that possibility didn’t exist. He doesn’t just cover our sins. I believe that thinking that way demeans what He did.
Yes. But again, free does not equal being in Heaven. You’re also “free” in Purgatory in the sense that your work is done. You don’t cleanse yourself. You don’t stay in Purgatory voluntarily.
Protestants and Catholics look at the word “saved” very very differently. To us, it is a process, not a one time thing.
Maybe you misunderstood her? She may be more concerned with getting them to believe in Jesus first. To her, if she is Catholic, that is part of but not all of being saved.
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