How the Catholic 'alt-right' aims to purge LGBTQ members from the church

[exnihilo]

Mob violence is not justice.

It absolutely can be. The legitimate authority can be unjust or just. Just because it does or does not do something does not mean it is offering justice. If the legitimate authority refuses to give justice then what else can be done?

How would the Bishops and Holy Father react to harassment towards gay Catholics?

The alleged harassment was over having a man living a manifestly gravely sinful lifestyle while serving as the head of some parish minstry. I would hope the bishops reaction would be one of shame and sorrow that the man was allowed to cause such grave scandal.

 

[angel12]

I would hope the bishops reaction would be one of shame and sorrow that the man was allowed to cause such grave scandal.

I think we can safely say it would not be “let’s go slash his tires, make death threats, vandalize a parish building, and physically attack him.”

Muting this thread now. I don’t see any hope for a rational discussion with someone who supports vigilante violence.

 

[exnihilo]

I think we can safely say it would not be “let’s go slash his tires, make death threats, vandalize a parish building, and physically attack him.”

And if the reaction is allowing a man in manifest, grave sin to continue to work and lead people at a parish then that is doing the same thing to people’s immortal soul.

 

[OraLabora]

I don’t think that accepting Catholic moral doctrine regarding sexual morality makes one a member of the alt-right, whatever that may be. Catholic moral doctrine is consistent with scripture and tradition and does not change with the times.

Here’s the issue. I don’t have homosexual tendencies. So “accepting Catholic moral doctrine” on this topic is easy for me isn’t it? I don’t deserve any kudos for not giving into homosexual behaviour because I’m not tempted by it. But it probably isn’t so easy for those who have homosexual inclinations.

On the other hand I have an awful lot of trouble adhering to Church teaching on potato chip addiction (I’m not being facetious: I’m using that as a euphemism for my own sinful inclinations, which I feel no desire to discuss with anyone other than my confessor).

So what should I be doing? Worrying about the homosexual’s difficulties and work to ensure he’s excluded from any real and meaningful participation in the Church?

Or work out my own salvation with trembling and fear, at the same time reaching out to the homosexual Catholic with empathy and a kind heart, recognizing that it must just as tough for him to deal with his inclination as it is for me to deal with my potato chip addiction, and perhaps together we can help each other hobble down the difficult road that leads to sainthood and salvation.

 

[MikeInVA]

So what should I be doing? Worrying about the homosexual’s difficulties and work to ensure he’s excluded from any real and meaningful participation in the Church?

To run with your example, should the Church change its potato chip policy because you feel slighted when people react to you bringing a bag of chips to Mass?

 

[AlNg]

should the Church change its potato chip policy because you feel slighted when people react to you bringing a bag of chips to Mass?

Generally speaking, is it OK to eat potato chips or pretzels during Mass? I see people doing this and I see altar servers drinking water from their water bottles during Mass.

 

[OraLabora]

To run with your example, should the Church change its potato chip policy because you feel slighted when people react to you bringing a bag of chips to Mass?

Would it not be easier to help the potato chip addict, or the homosexual, with healing rather than rules? By offering a place of unconditional love?

God never promised us a Church without potato chip crumbs. To heal a potato chip addict, you have to accept that there will be some crumbs.

I’d much rather be in a Church with crumbs and broken people seeking healing in Christ, rather than an impeccable Church made up of people who think they are already saints.

 

[pnewton]

Would it not be easier to help the potato chip addict, or the homosexual, with healing rather than rules? By offering a place of unconditional love?

It is a hard balance. Love and understanding versus doctrine and discipline. Justice versus mercy. I do not envy priests, which is why I prefer to keep my nose only in my own parish for such issue. For me, I think it is always better to err on the side of mercy. Jesus had a lot to say about sin and the need for repentance, but he did interact most with the sinners, tax collectors and adulterers. His harshest words for for the religious that erred on doctrine and discipline.

 

[JimG]

Many potato chip addicts claim to have been born with the addiction. But if that’s the case, then what’s the purpose of all those tasty potato chip ads? Is it innate or is it marketing? First it’s chips, then Doritos. Marketing aims to increase the addiction. Even to normalize it.

 

[OraLabora]

Then my soul is truly lost, because even though I used it as a euphemism for my own sinfulness, quite apart from the serious stuff I really am a potato chip addict…

 

[DMorgan56]

The Church, in my opinion, has never been made up entirely of Saints. Regardless of what some may think, erroneously, we are all constantly Working out our Salvation.(Philippians 2:12). It has always been this way. But the Goal, as it were, is to aim for Perfection as best as we can with the help of Grace.(1st Peter 1:16) The Church has always extended Mercy, but not by lowering the bar.
1st John 1:1

Mercy is meaningless unless it points to Holiness.

 

[Feanor2]

I can only buy the little bags of chips because if I buy the3 big ones I will eat the whole thing or a ridiculous portion of it.

 

[prayerrider]

The author of the NBC article leans heavily on information provided by the dissident and discredited “New Ways Ministry.”
If there is (legal and non-violent) pushback against the agenda of “New Ways Ministry” and others like them to normalize homosexual activity and unholy matrimony in the Church, good.

 

[c1949]

I don’t deny that such extremists exist, but the response should be to expand on the ministry to people of all types. This does not extend endorsement, there is only one gospel and one means of salvation through Jesus Christ.

Sexual orientation should not define a person’s identity. There is little in the Catechism to suggest that labeling is the first step in welcoming someone into the Church. There may need be a special door INTO the Church for those who self-identify as LGBTetc. Those orientations do not change the teaching of the Church. It is those with such orientations, like all the rest of us with food orientation or gambling orientation or alcohol and drug orientations, etc. who may need their special route of conversion, to see that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Light.

We are COMMANDED by scripture to carry the burdens of others. We don’t have a right to be selective to those we are comfortable with to the exclusion of others.

New Year’s Resolution: whose burden will you carry this year? next year?

 

[prayerrider]

I’ll carry the burden of the unborn innocents, this year and every year.

 

[OraLabora]

The Church, in my opinion, has never been made up entirely of Saints. Regardless of what some may think, erroneously, we are all constantly Working out our Salvation.(Philippians 2:12). It has always been this way. But the Goal, as it were, is to aim for Perfection as best as we can with the help of Grace.(1st Peter 1:16) The Church has always extended Mercy, but not by lowering the bar.
1st John 1:1

Mercy is meaningless unless it points to Holiness.

While this is true, I prefer to think of it as an ideal to strive for, rather than a rule to follow.

An all-or-nothing rules-based approach often leads to discouragement, abandonment and a lack of improvement, whereas often overcoming a habitual sin requires a lifetime of trial and incremental improvement. It is far better to encourage the small steps made in the right direction rather than condemn the failure to reach perfection. Sainthood, like any prize worth striving for, requires many years of practice, hard work, tears, and setbacks.

Fortunately in my experience in the confessional and on the front lines, most clergy get this.

Unfortunately, there is an element in the Church that is very rules oriented. I encounter a fair amount of it here on CAF.

 

[DMorgan56]

When I converted to Catholicism, at the age of 16, one of my cousins remarked that “oh, you wanted a convenient religion. Just do whatever you like and then just go to confession.” She had no idea of what the Church actually has taught for centuries and still teaches today. It is never about relying upon the Forgiveness afforded us. It has always been to strive for Holiness. It has also never been an all or nothing approach. But the softness of the past 40-50 years has done much damage.

 

[Annie]

This is not a reply to you alone, but to others who agree with you as well.

The man described had publicized his sinfulness by “marrying” a person of the same sex.

I do not see any wrong in the pastor’s requesting he step down from his position or firing him from that position because of the SSM.

OTOH, I do not think it was right that people who disagreed with the pastor’s decision to allow the man to continue in his position to harass, threaten, and vandalize the man.

There is only so much “accompanying” that we can do. Sometimes we have to shake the dust from our sandals or treat him as a heathen or publican.

Helping is assisting someone to improve; enabling is helping someone to persist in bad activity.

 

[DMorgan56]

 

[OraLabora]

I’m of a mixed view on this. On the other hand the man in question is in Church. He did not slam the door in the disciples’ faces, he let them in to his home. No doubt a very messy home. A home on a shaky foundation. An unclean home, like many many homes. But he did not slam the door. The cliché of a journey of a thousand miles starting with a single step…

And honestly, I wish the Church would stop harassing homosexuals, or anyone else on the LGBQT spectrum, and get her own house in order. Because hers is just as messy and unclean as the home I described above. When a prince of the Church can denounce homosexuals as evil incarnate, and then turn out to be abusing his own seminarians who placed their trust in him (Cardinal O’Brien, Cardinal McCarrick), or is convicted of having abused minors (Cardinal Pell), something is deeply, deeply wrong. The gay parishioner, at least, is being honest with himself and with others, unlike Cardinal O’Brien:

in December 2004 he told [members of the Scottish Parliament] that homosexuals were “captives of sexual aberrations”, comparing homosexuals to prisoners in [Saughton jail] and later referred to homosexuality as a “moral degradation”. (Wikipedia)

The notion of Pharisees come to mind, of imposing a burden on his flock that he himself was unwilling, or unable, to observe.

This not meant to excuse the sin of homosexual relations, but it is meant to express a wish that we finally put a stop to this pogrom against homosexuals in the Church until the hierarchy of the Church can finally come to terms with the deep-seated sexual sins of many of its members, and admit that we are all just fallen men and women in need of redemption, whether a homosexual or a potato chip addict. The honesty of the openly gay parishioner IMHO is a more solid first step on the journey to sanctity than the thousands of dishonest steps by a Cardinal O’Brien or McCarrick.