How to test the truth of a religion

[exoflare]

I repeat – There is NO discrepancy to be found in the Qur’an.

Alluding to my previous analogy, the building has been completed and there are no defects whatsoever.

And I repeat – there is NO discrepancy to be found in the Bible. The building has been completed and there are no defects whatsoever.

This is the best Muslims can do… nothing more than a prolonged game of “he said, she said…”

 

[hamba2han]

And talking about buildings, on a related note, there are several sayings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), which make clear that he is the final prophet. Abu Huraira reports that the prophet said:

**“My position, in relation to the prophets who came before me, can be explained in the following example: ‘A man erected a building and adorned his edifice with great beauty, but he left an empty niche in the corner, where just one brick was missing. People looked around the building and marveled at its beauty, but wondered why a brick was missing from that niche! I am like unto that one missing brick and I am the last in line of the prophets.’” **(Reported by Bukhari and Muslim.)

This is just so profoundly important to remember – The building i.e. Islam, which started from the moment Adam (pbuh) appeared and continued with all the Prophets like Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus (pbut) and finally Muhammad (pbuh), has indeed been completed and it contains NO defects whatsoever

 

[jack_hawkins]

And I repeat – there is NO discrepancy to be found in the Bible. The building has been completed and there are no defects whatsoever.

This is the best Muslims can do… nothing more than a prolonged game of “he said, she said…”

so true - many Muslims have very little education in critical thinking - I think it’s not encouraged in the Islamic paradigm:thumbsup:

 

[jack_hawkins]

And talking about buildings, on a related note, there are several sayings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), which make clear that he is the final prophet. Abu Huraira reports that the prophet said:

**“My position, in relation to the prophets who came before me, can be explained in the following example: ‘A man erected a building and adorned his edifice with great beauty, but he left an empty niche in the corner, where just one brick was missing. People looked around the building and marveled at its beauty, but wondered why a brick was missing from that niche! I am like unto that one missing brick and I am the last in line of the prophets.’” **(Reported by Bukhari and Muslim.)

This is just so profoundly important to remember – The building i.e. Islam, which started from the moment Adam (pbuh) appeared and continued with all the Prophets like Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus (pbut) and finally Muhammad (pbuh), has indeed been completed and it contains NO defects whatsoever

Is this the best you can do?
Mohammed says he was the final prophet so he must be?
dear dear dear

 

[exoflare]

Is this the best you can do?
Mohammed says he was the final prophet so he must be?
dear dear dear

Yep, told ya.

 

[Jedda]

That’s a long non-answer. I think maybe we should change topics.

To be honest I have been stuck between Islam and my roots “Christianity”. ( I will write a introduction tonight and tell my story) and he just danced around the questions. Why did Allah change his mind and “direction to Mecca?”

 

[Verisimilitude]

I cannot see any discrepancy here since it is a well known fact that Allah (swt) did indeed command that the Qiblah be changed from Jerusalem to Makkah.

The Qur’an was revealed over a period of 23 years and it was initially implemented on a society which was primarily pagan in their beliefs and therefore it was a gradual transformation to a society that wholeheartedly embraced a monotheistic belief based on the supremeness of their Creator.

Think of the revelation of the Qur’an as a building project and think of the few abrogated verses as the scaffolding used in the early stages of the construction.

Once the structure of the building has been constructed, there was no longer any need to retain the scaffolding.

In short, it was certainly not a case of the Creator changing His mind but rather it was indeed meant to be that way.

I do not see any problem or discrepancy here.

Firstly, Allah (swt) never changes His mind for that is a sign of weakness and the Creator is not weak.

You say allah never changes his mind, but allah did change his mind, and you see no discrepancy because it was always supposed to be that way?

You ask for proof and much proof is given to the inaccuracy and inefficacy of the koran. You reject the obvious with illogic. You justify the unjustifiable.

Demons (jinns) attest to the word of God? Call it wonderfull? That is insane. I believe some things in the Koran. I think Muhammed was visited by a spirit in that cave, and occasionally was visited a few other times, but all in all, most of the revelations came from himself. I accept Sura 72 as correct, in that the Jinn were pleased to hear the words from their father- the father of lies. They rejoiced in it.

What the demon could not acomplish by tempting the Son of God in the desert 600 years before, he acomplished in the sands of Arabia.

 

[Booklover]

so true - many Muslims have very little education in critical thinking - I think it’s not encouraged in the Islamic paradigm:thumbsup:

As an ex-Muslim so aptly put it, in Islam the brain is only stuffing for the skull!

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

I cannot see any discrepancy here since it is a well known fact that Allah (swt) did indeed command that the Qiblah be changed from Jerusalem to Makkah.

The Qur’an was revealed over a period of 23 years and it was initially implemented on a society which was primarily pagan in their beliefs and therefore it was a gradual transformation to a society that wholeheartedly embraced a monotheistic belief based on the supremeness of their Creator.

Think of the revelation of the Qur’an as a building project and think of the few abrogated verses as the scaffolding used in the early stages of the construction.

Once the structure of the building has been constructed, there was no longer any need to retain the scaffolding.

In short, it was certainly not a case of the Creator changing His mind but rather it was indeed meant to be that way.

I do not see any problem or discrepancy here.

Yes, there is! It shows that Allah is wishy washy, since he does everything by trial and error!

Why do you keep ignoring what I posted about Muhammad’s scribe changing the wording of the Quran?

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

I cannot see any discrepancy here since it is a well known fact that Allah (swt) did indeed command that the Qiblah be changed from Jerusalem to Makkah.

The Qur’an was revealed over a period of 23 years and it was initially implemented on a society which was primarily pagan in their beliefs and therefore it was a gradual transformation to a society that wholeheartedly embraced a monotheistic belief based on the supremeness of their Creator

Muhammad’s mission flourished partly because he had appeared in a time and place where he was amongst an ignorant, superstitious, largely chauvinistic people. The qualities that he needed to bolster his marauding religion were already present in his early followers. Chauvinism, bigotry, haughtiness, arrogance, megalomania, stupidity, boastfulness, greed, lust for sex, disdain for life and other ignoble character traits that are the hallmarks of Islam, were already present as the materia prima in Arabia, where Muhammad launched his prophetic enterprise. These attributes were later imposed on other nations who fell prey to Islam. Those who already had these base attributes found in Islam a common ground to regroup and a “divine” validation for their deviant, criminal behavior.

faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina40612.htm

 

[Keikiolu]

Is there any falsification test in your religion? Is there anything in your religion that would prove you are wrong if I could prove to you that it exists - anything?

Most people will not have anything - no test, no proof, nothing!.. because they do not carry around the idea that they should not only present what they believe but should also offer others a chance to prove they’re wrong.

Islam however does provide humankind with a chance to verify it’s authenticity and “prove it wrong” and it states in the Qur’an:

“Do they not consider the Qur’an? Had it been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.”… (Surah An-Nisa, 4:82)

This is a clear challenge to the non-Muslim for it basically invites him to find a mistake in the Qur’an.

As a matter of fact, the seriousness and difficulty of the challenge aside, the actual presentation of such a challenge in the first place is not even in human nature and is inconsistent with man’s personality.

One doesn’t take an exam in school and after finishing the exam, write a note to the instructor at the end saying, “This exam is perfect. There are no mistakes in it. Find one if you can!”

One just doesn’t do that because the teacher would not sleep until he found a mistake!

And yet this is the way the Qur’an approaches people i.e. to invite them to examine and try their best to find any mistakes or discrepancies within it and hence determine for themselves the Truth of Islam.

Read this.

What then is the actual TEST condition that would prove the koran invalid, and Mamet the fake that he is??

Since you need to be an expert on islam to be able to even formulate a test for the validity of islam, and even then you’d need to be a fluent arabic speaker (7th century version) to read the REAL koran, the test would have to come from someone with those qualifications.

The only question I have as to the validity of islam is it’s position on the Holy Trinity.

It rejects It. I reject islam as nonsense.

(( Very EFFECTIVE nonsense, as a political system masquerading as a religion,… but still nonsense to the core. ))

 

[Montalban]

I cannot see any discrepancy here since it is a well known fact that Allah (swt) did indeed command that the Qiblah be changed from Jerusalem to Makkah.

That is the discerepancy. First you say “Worship this way” then you change it. They are different. That’s discrepancy!

The Qur’an was revealed over a period of 23 years and it was initially implemented on a society which was primarily pagan in their beliefs and therefore it was a gradual transformation to a society that wholeheartedly embraced a monotheistic belief based on the supremeness of their Creator.

So your god had poor materials to work with!

Think of the revelation of the Qur’an as a building project and think of the few abrogated verses as the scaffolding used in the early stages of the construction.

They’re the foundation. They’re supposed to be the word of your god. Obviously your god’s words of ‘truth’ have a use-by date.

I do not see any problem or discrepancy here.

If you say it often enough, it’ll be true

 

[Montalban]

To be honest I have been stuck between Islam and my roots “Christianity”. ( I will write a introduction tonight and tell my story) and he just danced around the questions. Why did Allah change his mind and “direction to Mecca?”

I think it’s because of the Jews. Initially Muhammed had hoped to win them over - and some may have converted - thinking he was the Messiah. But by and large the Jews didn’t convert, so having rejected Muhammed, he has his whole congregation turn around to face back towards Mecca, and so in effect when they pray they’re holding their behinds up to Jerusalem. It’s a huge snub by the Moslem community.

 

[Montalban]

so true - many Muslims have very little education in critical thinking - I think it’s not encouraged in the Islamic paradigm

That’s why you can see their Islamic schools spending huge amounts of time learning the Koran by rote. It means they have it uncritically in their minds. They don’t stop to ask questions - like in some Jewish religious schools (where kids pair off and discuss things).

Islam really does mean submission. Your mind is switched-off in Islam

 

[Montalban]

I repeat – There is NO discrepancy to be found in the Qur’an.

Alluding to my previous analogy, the building has been completed and there are no defects whatsoever.

To continue with your building analogy… God makes a promise to one people that he’ll build his temple amongst them.

He sends worker after worker to build the temple up; Mosese, Isaiah, etc. Then the master builder Jesus completes the building.

But then your god says “Hey, no, I’ll tear this down (despite my promise) and build a new building amongst the Arabs” (with whom he has no covenant)

 

[hamba2han]

You still have not answered why Muhammad would allow his scribe to change the wording of the Quran if it was indeed the word of God!

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did not allow the scribes or anyone else to change anything of the Qur’an and if you really wish to know more about the preservation of the Qur’an, then perhaps it is much better that you read this article.

You say Allah never changes his mind, but Allah did change his mind, and you see no discrepancy because it was always supposed to be that way?

You ask for proof and much proof is given to the inaccuracy and inefficacy of the Koran. You reject the obvious with illogic. You justify the unjustifiable.

Demons (jinns) attest to the word of God? Call it wonderful? That is insane. I believe some things in the Koran. I think Muhammad was visited by a spirit in that cave, and occasionally was visited a few other times, but all in all, most of the revelations came from himself. I accept Sura 72 as correct, in that the Jinn were pleased to hear the words from their father- the father of lies. They rejoiced in it.

What the demon could not acomplish by tempting the Son of God in the desert 600 years before, he acomplished in the sands of Arabia.

As I have previously explained, the abrogation of the verses was not because the Creator changed His mind but rather, it was done with definite design, purpose and intent right from the beginning… and so, there is no discrepancy here at all.

Second, the jinn do not consist of demons alone but instead refers to the invisible beings like fairies, elves, goblins, leprechauns, spirits and the like.

 

[Booklover]

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did not allow the scribes or anyone else to change anything of the Qur’an and if you really wish to know more about the preservation of the Qur’an, then perhaps it is much better that you read this article.

This is irrational! :hypno: Facts are facts, and you keep ignoring that which is not palatable to your perception of your prophet and of the so-called “truth” of the Quran and Islam!

Sources of the Qur’an

Contributions by Abdullah ibn Sad Ibn Abi Sarh

**Abstract **

Muhammad had scribes write his revelations down for him. One scribe was `Abdullah Ibn Sa’d Ibn Abi Sarh. As Sarh wrote these revelations down, he frequently made suggestions on improving their wording. Muhammad often agreed and allowed the changes to be made. Eventually, Sarh left Islam, knowing it could not be from God if a mere scribe were allowed to change God’s word. Later, after the conquest of Mecca, Muhammad ordered Sarh’s death.

Introduction

During Muhammad’s 23 years of prophetic ministry, Muhammad claimed to receive revelations from God, given to him by an angel. Muhammad used many men, functioning as scribes, to write down these assumed revelations. Different scribes wrote down different revelations. `**Abdullah Sarh was one of Muhammad’s scribes. Evidently, Sarh had some literary skills, sometimes suggesting improvements to Muhammad in the wording of the recited Qur’an. Muhammad often agreed with Sarh’s improvements, and allowed the changes to be made. **
**Sarh eventually left Islam because he knew that no mere scribe should be allowed to change something that was proclaimed to be the word of God. The changes were frequent enough that it caused Sarh to realize that something was amiss. Upon leaving Islam, Sarh became a threat to the credibility of the Qur’an. It would no longer be believed to be the word of God if a man had been allowed to edit and change it. Sarh’s threat to the credibility of the Qur’an was also a threat to Muhammad’s credibility. No real prophet would allow the word of God to be changed. **
Sarh left Islam and lived in Mecca. Some time later, Muhammad and his army moved on Mecca and took it without a fight. On that day, Muhammad ordered the murder of 10 people living in Mecca. Muhammad said “God forbid killing in Mecca, except for this one day.” Sarh was one of the people Muhammad ordered to be murdered. His crime? He had left Islam, and he constituted a threat to the credibility of the Qur’an and the prophethood of Muhammad. No wonder then that Muhammad wanted him dead.

answering-islam.org/Quran/Sources/sarh.html



Vickie

 

[Booklover]

As I have previously explained, the abrogation of the verses was not because the Creator changed His mind but rather, it was done with definite design, purpose and intent right from the beginning… and so, there is no discrepancy here at all.

How do you know this for a fact? Oh, of course, Muhammad said that Allah told him that, and therefore it’s true!:dts:

Typical Islamic illogical “logic”!:whacky:

Vickie

 

[hamba2han]

How do you know this for a fact? Oh, of course, Muhammad said that Allah told him that, and therefore it’s true!:dts:

Typical Islamic illogical “logic”!:whacky:

Vickie

Again, let us remember the challenge of the Qur’an to disbelievers:
**
“Do they not consider the Qur’an? Had it been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.”**… (Surah An-Nisa, 4:82)

The only FACT that matters here is that the Qur’an is 100% free of any discrepancy… even without the abrogated verses.

And as for your prior post about ‘Abdullah Ibn Sad Ibn Abi Sarh’, here is a detailed refutation
of the answering-Islam article if you care to read it.

 

[Morning_Star15]

Again, let us remember the challenge of the Qur’an to disbelievers:
**
“Do they not consider the Qur’an? Had it been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.”**… (Surah An-Nisa, 4:82)

The only FACT that matters here is that the Qur’an is 100% free of any discrepancy… even without the abrogated verses.

And as for your prior post about ‘Abdullah Ibn Sad Ibn Abi Sarh’, here is a detailed refutation
of the answering-Islam article if you care to read it.

So even if someone does find a discrepancy in the Qu’ran, you say that Allah purposely planned to put it there and it’s therefore not a discrepancy at all?

In that case, the real test of whether the Qu’ran is divinely inspired is whether a Muslim can find a discrepancy in it, and since you’ve been taught that there are no discrepancies, despite evidence to the contrary, the Qu’ran passes the test! Talk about objective tests.