How to test the truth of a religion

[hamba2han]

You don’t think ancient people noticed that fresh and saltwater don’t mix? I think that fact did not escape them, so the quran is not unique at all in that regard.

The proof of the Qur’an does not depend on the truth and accuracy of individual verses or passages that is found within it but rather, it is the collective sum of all of these evidences which really proves that the Qur’an is the Word of the Creator.

To illustrate, suppose that each individual verse or passage which has been proven to be scientifically accurate had only a 50% chance of being correct if we are to assume that the author just copied blindly from other sources or perhaps even took a wild guess at the answer.

However, when you get numerous individual verses and passages lined up together to show that ALL of them have been proven to be scientifically accurate and not even a single one of them is wrong, then the chances that the author may have guessed them right is virtually non-existent.

Mathematical probability is simply against anyone who might be making this accusation that the author of the Qur’an either copied from other sources or simply got “lucky” when making all these statements which just happened to be proven scientifically accurate.

And so, the detractors of the Qur’an have not only Science working against their denial that the Qur’an is Divine, but Mathematics as well.

 

[exoflare]

The proof of the Qur’an does not depend on the truth and accuracy of individual verses or passages that is found within it but rather, it is the collective sum of all of these evidences which really proves that the Qur’an is the Word of the Creator.

To illustrate, suppose that each individual verse or passage which has been proven to be scientifically accurate had only a 50% chance of being correct if we are to assume that the author just copied blindly from other sources or perhaps even took a wild guess at the answer.

Problem is, there is nothing in the Quran that speaks of any scientific knowledge which was not already known at the time.

 

[hamba2han]

The Qur’an on the Cerebrum:

God has said in the Qur’an about one of the evil unbelievers who forbade the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) from praying at the Kaaba:

No! If he does not stop, We will take him by the naseyah (front of the head), a lying, sinful naseyah (front of the head)! … (Quran, 96:15-16)

Why did the Qur’an describe the front of the head as being lying and sinful? Why didn’t the Qur’an say that the person was lying and sinful? What is the relationship between the front of the head and lying and sinfulness?

If we look into the skull at the front of the head, we will find the prefrontal area of the cerebrum (see figure). What does physiology tell us about the function of this area? A book entitled Essentials of Anatomy & Physiology says about this area, “The motivation and the foresight to plan and initiate movements occur in the anterior portion of the frontal lobes, the prefrontal area. This is a region of association cortex…” Also the book says, “In relation to its involvement in motivation, the prefrontal area is also thought to be the functional center for aggression…”


Functional regions of the left hemisphere of the cerebral cortex. The prefrontal area is located at the front of the cerebral cortex. (Essentials of Anatomy & Physiology, Seeley and others, p. 210.)

So, this area of the cerebrum is responsible for planning, motivating, and initiating good and sinful behavior and is responsible for the telling of lies and the speaking of truth. Thus, it is proper to describe the front of the head as lying and sinful when someone lies or commits a sin, as the Qur’an has said, “…A lying, sinful naseyah (front of the head)!”

Scientists have only discovered these functions of the prefrontal area in the last sixty years, according to Professor Keith L. Moore, Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Cell Biology at the University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada.

 

[cestusdei]

The proof of the Qur’an does not depend on the truth and accuracy of individual verses or passages that is found within it but rather, it is the collective sum of all of these evidences which really proves that the Qur’an is the Word of the Creator.

To illustrate, suppose that each individual verse or passage which has been proven to be scientifically accurate had only a 50% chance of being correct if we are to assume that the author just copied blindly from other sources or perhaps even took a wild guess at the answer.

However, when you get numerous individual verses and passages lined up together to show that ALL of them have been proven to be scientifically accurate and not even a single one of them is wrong, then the chances that the author may have guessed them right is virtually non-existent.

Mathematical probability is simply against anyone who might be making this accusation that the author of the Qur’an either copied from other sources or simply got “lucky” when making all these statements which just happened to be proven scientifically accurate.

And so, the detractors of the Qur’an have not only Science working against their denial that the Qur’an is Divine, but Mathematics as well.

hamba, I will try again. Stating the obvious will make you 100% accurate. If you read something into a text, eisegesis, then you will be 100% correct. But that doesn’t prove the text is from God. Science does not prove the quran. Protestant fundamentalists do the same thing with the Bible and get the same results. Your whole way of reasoning is fallacious. Try something else.

 

[cestusdei]

hamba, muhammed taught that Satan lives in the upper part of the nose at night and must be washed out with water during wudu. Is there scientific evidence that shows the devil lives in our noses?

 

[hamba2han]

Is there scientific evidence that shows the devil lives in our noses?

First, you are not quoting the Qur’an but a hadith and this takes it outside the scope of this subject as the ahadith does not set a falsification test for itself like the Qur’an does.

Second, have you ever seen the devil before in your life?.. If so, what does it look like and where does it live at any point in time during the day?

How can one know for certain how right or wrong this particular hadith is if not by faith alone?

Third, since you are looking at the ahadith so intently, you really should try to find the answer to this question:

Why is the form and structure of the language used in the ahadith so different from that of the Qur’an?

After all, aren’t the words found in both written in Arabic and originated from the lips of the same man?

 

[cestusdei]

I didn’t realize you rejected the hadith. But you seem to hedge on the nose thing. I also notice suddenly you are no longer interested in scientific evidence and are now arguing from faith. I think you are making my points for me very well.

 

[Valke2]

While it is true that I said that the Qur’an is not a science textbook, nevertheless it does contain numerous scientific facts which are indeed testable in order to determine it’s accuracy… which is exactly the subject of this thread.

If every scientific fact turned out to be true, it doesn’t prove the religion. It is not a valid “falsification test”

 

[hamba2han]

If every scientific fact turned out to be true, it doesn’t prove the religion. It is not a valid “falsification test”

The Qur’an is really the heart and soul of Islam.

Bearing in mind that God never makes mistakes, all that an enemy of Islam has to do is to show a single contradiction or discrepancy in the Qur’an and he or she would have proven that it simply cannot be the literal Word of God and thereby destroy it’s own claim that it is.

In other words, destroy the accuracy and integrity of the Qur’an and you destroy Islam.

On the other hand, if after 1,400 years of earnest and dedicated efforts to accomplish this by countless millions of detractors, not a single soul has succeeded in doing so, then is there still an honest logical reason to doubt that the Qur’an is indeed the Word of the Creator and hence affirm the Truth of Islam?

 

[George_Waters]

In other words, destroy the accuracy and integrity of the Qur’an and you destroy Islam.

Apparantly not.

 

[Valke2]

The QU’ran says that Jesus was not crucified. It also says that Jews are responsible for killing him. There’s an inconsistency.
Please let me know when you are ready to convert.

Muhammed clearly hated Jews. But we are people of the book.
Inconsistency…
Please let me know when you are ready to convert.

Jews are descendants of pigs and apes according to the QUran. Is this a scientific fact? Incosistency.
Please let me know when you are ready to convert.

By the same verse, Jews are considered subhuman in the Quran?
Is this true or is it inconsistent with reality?
Please let me know when you are ready to convert.

The Koran has many contradictory statements, including those concerning Jewish and other non-believers. A Muslim can come up with a verse that contradicts the Judeophobic commandments or stories. But every verse is equally valid, so you Imams and clergy cite whatever is “politically correct” at a given moment. This is how some Muslims misrepresent Islam when denying its militancy in Western media. But one cannot eliminate the militant xenophobic aspects of Islam, which can be used whenever it is politically expedient. (See buffalo-israel-link.org/joel11.htm )

So. When are you going to convert?

 

[Valke2]

The Koran includes many abrogated verses, called mansukh, and abrogating verses, nasikh; the latter cancel the former, rendering them invalid, though they nevertheless remain in the Koran and are deceptively quoted, for Western consumption, as though they still represented genuine Islamic beliefs.
freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1251972/posts

Sounds like a contradiction

When are you going to convert?

 

[Valke2]

The pacific, tolerant message of Sura 2.256 reflects the historical circumstances of its composition. Islam was still then decidedly a minority faith and Mohammed and his small band of followers, in Medina and surrounded by non-Muslim enemies, were threatened with destruction. The early Koran of necessity presented religious tolerance as a divine command because nascent Islam had not yet acquired the physical power to compel conversion: “The Apostle had not been given permission to fight or allowed to shed blood … he had simply been ordered to call men to God, endure insult, and forgive the ignorant” (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasul Allah).

But when Islam became powerful, Allah’s eternal message changed. Islam could now “call people by the sword” – that is, compel conversion – and accordingly “verses of the sword” were conveniently revealed to the Prophet, verses that sanction and indeed command conversion of the Infidel by armed violence, which historically would be Islam’s preferred method. Sura 2.256 was thus abrogated by a later verse, composed after Mohammed had conquered Mecca and was preparing his new Muslim empire for Jihad against the non-Muslim world: “Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush” (Sura 9.5). This “verse of the sword” not only abrogates 2.256, but also abrogates well over a hundred earlier verses that formerly taught peace and tolerance toward non-believers.

Sounds like an incosistency.
So, when are you going to convert?

 

[Valke2]

Muslim scholars themselves were fastidiously cataloguing the problematic aspects of the Koran – unfamiliar vocabulary, seeming omissions of text, grammatical incongruities, deviant readings, and so on. A major theological debate in fact arose within Islam in the late eighth century, pitting those who believed in the Koran as the “uncreated” and eternal Word of God against those who believed in it as created in time, like anything that isn’t God himself. Under the Caliph al-Ma’mun (813-833) this latter view briefly became orthodox doctrine. It was supported by several schools of thought, including an influential one known as Mu’tazilism, that developed a complex theology based partly on a metaphorical rather than simply literal understanding of the Koran.

So…

 

[Valke2]

The adoption of the doctrine of inimitability was a major turning point in Islamic history, and from the tenth century to this day the mainstream Muslim understanding of the Koran as the literal and uncreated Word of God has remained constant.

Of course, this is contradictory to how Muslims viewed the Koran prior to the 10th Century.

Is it time for me to say “mazel tov” on your conversion yet?

 

[Valke2]

GERD-R. Puin speaks with disdain about the traditional willingness, on the part of Muslim and Western scholars, to accept the conventional understanding of the Koran. “The Koran claims for itself that it is ‘mubeen,’ or ‘clear,’” he says. "But if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn’t make sense.

Many Muslims – and Orientalists – will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Koranic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Koran is not comprehensible – if it can’t even be understood in Arabic – then it’s not translatable. People fear that. And since the Koran claims repeatedly to be clear but obviously is not – as even speakers of Arabic will tell you – there is a contradiction. Something else must be going on."
derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/quran3.html

 

[Valke2]

Sura 34:50 commands Muhammad to say, “If I go astray, I go astray only to my own loss,” which is a severe factual error in the Qur’an as well as contradicting the teaching of the Qur’an in a number of other verses.

There are a great number of problems and inconsistencies between the several accounts of Adam’s creation, Allah’s command to prostrate before Adam, Satans refusal, etc

Who was the first musli? Muhammad [6:14, 163], Moses [7:143], some Egyptians [26:51], or Abraham [2:127-133, 3:67] or Adam, the first man who also received inspiration from Allah [2:37]?

So, about that conversion…

 

[George_Waters]

On the other hand, if after 1,400 years of earnest and dedicated efforts to accomplish this by countless millions of detractors, not a single soul has succeeded in doing so, then is there still an honest logical reason to doubt that the Qur’an is indeed the Word of the Creator and hence affirm the Truth of Islam?

And yet in about 15 minutes Valke2 has shown the inconsistancies of the Quran! Good job Valke2!

So, hamba…

 

[Morning_Star15]

The Qur’an is really the heart and soul of Islam.

Bearing in mind that God never makes mistakes, all that an enemy of Islam has to do is to show a single contradiction or discrepancy in the Qur’an and he or she would have proven that it simply cannot be the literal Word of God and thereby destroy it’s own claim that it is.

In other words, destroy the accuracy and integrity of the Qur’an and you destroy Islam.

On the other hand, if after 1,400 years of earnest and dedicated efforts to accomplish this by countless millions of detractors, not a single soul has succeeded in doing so, then is there still an honest logical reason to doubt that the Qur’an is indeed the Word of the Creator and hence affirm the Truth of Islam?

Let me ask you this: Let’s say I were to write a book (since you’re so fond of scientific facts let’s say it would be a science book), and I did my research very carefully, to the extent that everything in there would be 100% scientifically accurate. Let’s say I had academic rivals who wanted to discredit me by finding an inaccuracy or contradiction in my book, but alas for them, my book is so accurate, they can’t find a single mistake in there. Does the accuracy of my book and the lack of errors make me God?

 

[hamba2han]

It also says that Jews are responsible for killing him i.e. Jesus (pbuh)

Where is this stated in the Qur’an?

Muhammed clearly hated Jews.

Where is this stated in the Qur’an?

Jews are descendants of pigs and apes according to the QUran.

Where is this stated in the Qur’an?

By the same verse, Jews are considered subhuman in the Quran?

Where is this stated in the Qur’an?

As for the matter of abrogated verses, this has been explained before in this thread and just to recap:

The Qur’an was revealed over a period of 23 years and it was initially implemented on a society which was primarily pagan in their beliefs and therefore it was a gradual transformation to a society that eventually embraced wholeheartedly a monotheistic belief based on the oneness and supremeness of their Creator.

Think of the revelation of the Qur’an as a building project and think of the few abrogated verses as the scaffolding used in the early stages of the construction.

Once the structure of the building has been constructed, there was no longer any need to retain the scaffolding.

In short, it was certainly not a case of the Creator changing His mind but rather it was done with definite design, purpose and intent right from the beginning… and so, there is no discrepancy here at all.

As for the “verse of the sword” that you mentioned, could this be the reason why Islam is the fastest growing major religion in both America and Europe?

As for new teachings which later sprang up like “Mu’tazilism”, what has this got to do with the subject of the thread?

As for your assertion that parts of the Qur’an are still not fully understood yet, this is because it contains much knowledge that we have still not uncovered yet due to our own limitations as human beings.

There is absolutely no discrepancy here.