How would you currently rate yourself as a Catholic?

[SeriousQuestion]

Again, we are saved by faith apart from works

That’s not possible because the Bible says “You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” James 2:24

 

[JimR-OCDS]

But it’s out of faith that we do good works, which is what James wrote

However, trying to self-evaluate yourself as a Catholic is a dangerous exercise.

The evil one will try to convince you that you’re not a good Catholic and never will be.

Without strong faith, you’ll cave into the evil one

Jim

 

[SeriousQuestion]

The evil one is probably going to make me think that I am a saint and make me prouder than I already am.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

It’s why self-evaluation about your level of being a Catholic is dangerous

Jim

 

[Hodos]

I would disagree with this interpretation of James 2:24 because the specific context in which this phrase is stated is in the context of demonstrating love to the needy Christian, rather than addressing justification. The justification spoken here is in the context of demonstrating one’s faith within the community. The example provided from Abraham is also used by Paul in Galatians to specifically state that we are saved by grace apart from works. Specifically, the application that Paul makes is that Abraham was proclaimed righteous by God (this happens in Chapter 17 of Genesis) before receiving the sign of circumcision, this is also before his offering of Isaac, and then given the sign of circumcision afterward. Paul’s application is that Paul was justified already before any works were performed. We see the same thing in James’ use of Isaac being presented as offering. Again, he refers to an event of being declared righteous in Genesis 17, then twenty-something years later, Abraham demonstrates his faith by offering his son Isaac on the altar. This is why the verb τελειοω is used, which carries the connotation of consummation. So as an example, in Israel a couple who was engaged was considered legally married, subject to divorce if something went awry (reference Matthew 1 as an example); however, the marriage was brought to its full expression through it consummation on the wedding night. James makes the same application here.

 

[AugustTherese]

I would disagree with this interpretation of James 2:24 because the specific context in which this phrase is stated is in the context of demonstrating love to the needy Christian, rather than addressing justification. The justification spoken here is in the context of demonstrating one’s faith within the community

No, the context is salvation of one’s soul: “Can such faith save him?”

The analogy of showing love to one in need is an analogy, not the context!

And he said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
Luke 16:15

Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 6:1

 

[Hodos]

No, the context is salvation of one’s soul: “Can such faith save him?”

Precisely, such faith is the distinction that James is making between dead knowledge, and faith. This still doesn’t render all of Paul to ashes. Here is the problem. I can consistently use Paul to explain Jame’s application in chapter 2 of his epistle without there being a detriment to either text. The same cannot be said in reverse. If you take the rendering you are making of James and apply it to Paul’s arguments in Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians, you completely invalidate Paul’s argument. I recommend reading through and taking notes of Paul’s arguments in these books, outlining what he is saying and how each point builds upon itself in these three epistles to see my point.

 

[SeriousQuestion]

The example provided from Abraham is also used by Paul in Galatians

Are you talking about the explanation of Hagar and Sarah’s offspring because that was directed at the Law? I couldn’t find another mention in Galatians.

 

[AugustTherese]

If you take the rendering you are making of James and apply it to Paul’s arguments in Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians, you completely invalidate Paul’s argument.

Nope. Saint Paul argues that works of our own don’t justify. The works Saint James is referring to are works of grace. Those works do justify!

What do you do with Romans 2:13?

 

[SeriousQuestion]

The works are also accompanied by faith.

 

[Hodos]

What do you do with Romans 2:13?

I actually keep reading the entire book and don’t call it quits at Chapter 2, vs. 13. The application that Paul is making is that the Jews who have the law don’t follow it, and are equally condemned with the Gentiles who do not have the law.

As Paul says, All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law (note they will perish whether the law was given to them or not), and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law." Then he states the portion of scripture to which you are referring. BUT he continues…

He demonstrates through reason to the Jews who claim to have the law, that they don’t follow it, and are in fact condemned by it. In verse 25 he shows that circumcision has benefit, unless you break the law, becoming as unclean as the gentiles who do not have circumcision. He brings this part of his argument to a close in Chapter 3 demonstrating that no one stands righteous before God under the law, Gentile nor Jew. This is the condemnation that all have because we are all equally lawbreakers.

This is where Paul begins the gospel: But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify (note that the purpose of the law is to point to the righteousness we receive through Christ’s death and resurrection. The righteousness is given through (the word here means the agent by which something happens) faith in Christ Jesus to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. Paul then states that Jesus is the one who is just, and is the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. As Paul states in chapter 3, vs. 28, for we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Again, the notion that we are saved by faith and works here is flatly rejected by Paul which is why I said you need to read James through the lens of Paul, and not the other way around. Otherwise, Paul’s argument collapses.

What do I do with Romans 2:13? I read it in its full context instead of trying to rip the verse out of the rhetorical argument that Paul is making.

 

[AugustTherese]

He brings this part of his argument to a close in Chapter 3 demonstrating that no one stands righteous before God under the law, Gentile nor Jew.

Under the strict merits of the Law, i.e. perfect obedience. But, guess what, we aren’t under the strict code of the Law! We are under the auspices of grace:

For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
Romans 6:14

God now views us with grace. We can actually please God by our odedience now, through faith and works! Works of the law? No! Works of love wrought through grace.

This is the condemnation that all have because we are all equally lawbreaker

No! By the merits of Jesus Christ, we are no longer under the law, but under grace! In a state of sanctifying grace, we please God with our faith and obedience. Read here:

“For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”
Romans 8:3-4

Read the bolded portion. Being under grace, and not the strict merits of the law, we are able to have the “righteous requirements of the law fulfilled in us!” That is why Saint Paul can say that it is the doers of the Law who are justified!

Again, for the fourth time, Saint Paul condemns works of the law, i.e. works done under the law without grace! He does not condemn works done under grace!

Read all of Romans, don’t stop at chapter three or four.

 

[theCardinalbird]

I am not being a good Catholic. If I were to die now I’d probably be in hell…

 

[Hodos]

Under the strict merits of the Law, i.e. perfect obedience. But, guess what, we aren’t under the strict code of the Law! We are under the auspices of grace:

Not if you try to mix works with faith according to Galatians. And again, Paul speaks of works under the process of sanctification, which he speaks of separately from justification. We are justified by faith apart from works of the law, but we have been given the Holy Spirit and walk with him to do the works that God created for us to do. Again, we aren’t working for our salvation, that’s a done deal. We are now living out our original intended purpose.

You can stand on your own merit all you like. When I go before the Father, I choose to be cloaked with the righteousness of Christ that he has given me through faith.

 

[AugustTherese]

And again, Paul speaks of works under the process of sanctification, which he speaks of separately from justification

No! The Reformers do, Saint Paul does not!

“And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
1 Corinthians 6:11

We are justified by faith apart from works of the law

Agreed! But, you need to understand what works of the law means. Under the law, works don’t justify! But, we aren’t under the law, we are under grace and works done under grace do justify!

Again, we aren’t working for our salvation

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
Philippians 2:12

 

[AugustTherese]

You can stand on your own merit all you like. When I go before the Father, I choose to be cloaked with the righteousness of Christ that he has given me through faith.

But, it’s not my own merit. It’s the sanctifying grace that is infused that makes one worthy of his or her inheritance.

I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Galatians 2:20

 

[goodcatholic]

and ironically I had another thread called “How would you rate your knowledge of scripture?”

 

[Hodos]

“And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”

Thank you for illustrating my point. Paul draws the distinction between sanctification and justification right here.

 

[Hodos]

Agreed! But, you need to understand what works of the law means. Under the law, works don’t justify! But, we aren’t under the law, we are under grace and works done under grace do justify!

I agree. So stop trying to justify yourself through your works.

 

[SeriousQuestion]

That’s faith and works perfecting each other. The works of the Law is probably a reference to the Jewish law that you can find in Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Numbers ( I think) and maybe Exodus.I still didn’t find Abraham in Galatians.